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Old 05-13-2009, 10:18 AM   #51
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Hey! You found the answer! Congrats!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-13-2009, 11:44 AM   #52
Janet Rosen
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

When too late to do a rising blend, rather than clash, move back and do a lowering blend.
Us slower geriaikidoka need to learn this lesson early on.... :-)

Janet Rosen
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Old 05-14-2009, 04:20 AM   #53
ruthmc
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

As I said, timing And speed.

Learning how to do the rising block to yokomen uchi attack is really, really difficult, and if uke attacks too fast tori can never learn to do it effectively.

As Janet said, the low block while stepping off the line and back is a great alternative

Steve, please do your tori a favour and SLOW your attack until she is able to execute the block correctly

Ruth
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:58 AM   #54
Brion Toss
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Hello,
It's always about distance and timing, and much else, but which distance, which timing, and which else? It might help to assume first of all that the technique can work, and that both parties' job is to figure out how. This would seem to be at the heart of paired kata practice.
Maybe "obstinate" is not a bad quality in an attacker; after all, no one comes to a fight as an uke. But can you craft your obstinacy to suit the purpose of improving the execution of a technique? In Aikido and elsewhere, it does no good to be honest unless you are also accurate.
Brion Toss

Regards,

Brion Toss
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Old 05-14-2009, 12:23 PM   #55
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
Steve Thomas wrote: View Post
It was really a problem about distance and timing (like most problems in Aikido, I guess).
Hello

No it blumming well is not.
You just can not take what you dish out period.
It is all well and good to attack hard and true but you need to be able to live with the consequences, now if a few slaps send you packing you clearly can not.

In fact you got off lightly and you should thank her for being of good composition and the fact that there was no atemi to the face. It is martial arts, get use to get hit, mild discomfort and occasional pain, if that is not the case well take up ballroom dancing or aggressing knitting.

I am all in favour of full and proper attack (with provision of grade and build)

That being said
In any martial art, if you go full blast you can expect to be repaid in kind.
In any martial art is it good practice to start up lightly and build up so that uke and tori learn the move and how each other move.
In any martial art you need to be able to eat what you dish out.

Phil

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Old 05-15-2009, 05:55 AM   #56
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Hello

No it blumming well is not.
You just can not take what you dish out period.
It is all well and good to attack hard and true but you need to be able to live with the consequences, now if a few slaps send you packing you clearly can not.

In fact you got off lightly and you should thank her for being of good composition and the fact that there was no atemi to the face. It is martial arts, get use to get hit, mild discomfort and occasional pain, if that is not the case well take up ballroom dancing or aggressing knitting.

I am all in favour of full and proper attack (with provision of grade and build)

That being said
In any martial art, if you go full blast you can expect to be repaid in kind.
In any martial art is it good practice to start up lightly and build up so that uke and tori learn the move and how each other move.
In any martial art you need to be able to eat what you dish out.

Phil
What a strange attitude! Let me get this right: you think that during training, if you don't like the way your training partner is acting, you are justified in deliberately harming them to put them in their place. She didn't like my ukemi, so I should be thankful she didn't get violent. If she had decided to hit me in the face then I would have taken it as her picking a fight with me, not training. That is outside any Aikido we were doing. I'm not a particularly violent person and that would have ended that particular training session right there, since I would not want it to turn into a fight. She would not be the one left standing at the end of a fight.

I do not train with the aim of harming or injuring my training partners.
I do not expect that my training partners will set out to deliberately harm or injure me.

What exactly is it that you think that I'm "dishing out"?

You seem very aggressive. Do you get that from Aikido?
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Old 05-15-2009, 06:46 AM   #57
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Hmmm, I'm not sure Philippe said that in the best manner. But maybe if you re-read his post carefully, I believe you may understand that he is not advocating intentionally injuring someone.

BUT if you insist upon attacking very strongly, you must also understand that when aikido is properly done, what you put out will come back at you...sometimes multiplied a bit as well. So you should learn quickly to moderate your attacks so that you can deal with what comes out at the other end.

I've been in situations where for one reason or another, someone insisted on VERY strong attacks...when I suggested a little less, they thought I did not want "honest" training. So they did not comply. *Some* of those folks ended up getting hurt/injured...not because I like hurting/injuring people...simply because they were not yet ready to handle the result of that much power going into the equation (and perhaps some of that was my inability to deal with that strong an attack without causing hurt/injury). Which is why I would ask for less...but once you ignore that...

The thing is...no one should have to tell you this...if you see you are crushing someone and/or you don't like the result...STOP. Change what YOU are doing to get a different result. Take responsiblity for yourself.

Best,
Ron (hope that communicated the idea a little better)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-15-2009, 07:41 AM   #58
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

I should also mention that I have made this same error...even as a yudansha.

And I paid for it. But I'm not going to whine about the payment I definately asked for...

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-15-2009, 08:01 AM   #59
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I should also mention that I have made this same error...even as a yudansha.

And I paid for it. But I'm not going to whine about the payment I definately asked for...

B,
R
Payback, retribution, punishment.

Is that how you guys train?

I find this interesting! What we do is (normally) very different.
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Old 05-15-2009, 08:44 AM   #60
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Darn! lost my whole post.

Long and short, don't take it so seriously, that's why I put in the smilies.

What you put into the equation is what will come out. I can't see why that would be offensive...it happens in life, it happens in physics...it happens with good aikido.

It's not a matter of someone "getting even", its simply that as hard as you attack, that power has to go somewhere, and if your nage/shite is good, it's coming back at you. If they are very good, they will sheild you from your own mistakes...as much as they can.

As someone else said...it is a martial art. At least for many of us.
Best,
Ron

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Old 05-15-2009, 08:48 AM   #61
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Oh, I just did a search on this page to be sure...

No where in my posts did I mention

Quote:
Payback, retribution, punishment.
.

I think you need a reading lesson.
Best,
Ron (you seem very passive-agressive...did you get that from aikido??)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-15-2009, 09:41 AM   #62
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
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What a strange attitude! Let me get this right: you think that during training, if you don't like the way your training partner is acting, you are justified in deliberately harming them to put them in their place. She didn't like my ukemi, so I should be thankful she didn't get violent. If she had decided to hit me in the face then I would have taken it as her picking a fight with me, not training. That is outside any Aikido we were doing. I'm not a particularly violent person and that would have ended that particular training session right there, since I would not want it to turn into a fight. She would not be the one left standing at the end of a fight.

What exactly is it that you think that I'm "dishing out"? ?
Well as Ron said I did not put it the best way but to be brutally honest, I tuned it down.

May be I misunderstood you initial post, but
You played hard, no seeing any reason to compromise the “integrity” of your attack.
Got answered in kind
Put the blame on your training partner, who is not here to defend herself and whose list of fault grows with every one of our post.
And worst of all you are complaining and winging about it.

For me it is not really an acceptable line to take, hence my lack of compassion for your current predicament.

If you think of it rationally, the harder you attack the more energy you give to the counter and the more energy they will put into their counter.
By the attack you are giving you are setting up the pace. If you attack hard at least the initial bit is going to be hard

Quote:
Steve Thomas wrote: View Post
You seem very aggressive. Do you get that from Aikido?
For your edification, some aikido style defends against Yokomen by attacking the arm and punching the face as part of the block standard technique hence the allusion to kindness
As to me being aggressive, no mate, I am lovely and cuddly. In fact I am so fluffy that at the club they even nicknamed me Salome.

To answer the last last part of your question, No not really, Aikido just enables me to be just as rough and nasty as I naturally am, but with much less physical effort.

Last edited by philippe willaume : 05-15-2009 at 09:49 AM.

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 05-15-2009, 09:48 AM   #63
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
some aikido style defends against Yokomen by attacking the arm and punching the face as part of the block standard technique
Ah, warms the cockles of me wee little heart...

Best,
Ron

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Old 05-15-2009, 09:59 AM   #64
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Ah, warms the cockles of me wee little heart...

Best,
Ron
Well yes but be careful if you practice with a higher grade woman, on the top of severe tendonitis you will get a fat lip as well.

Ps Do you keep track of people you do injure; personally I have a little star on my sleeve.
I found that you need to do that on both side because after a while you start to be heavier on one side.

phil

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In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 05-15-2009, 10:02 AM   #65
Janet Rosen
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Aikido just enables me to be just as rough and nasty as I naturally am, but with much less physical effort.
ROTFLMAO!!!! Thant you, Philippe for my first belly laught of the day.

Janet Rosen
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Old 05-15-2009, 10:29 AM   #66
StevieT
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Put the blame on your training partner, who is not here to defend herself and whose list of fault grows with every one of our post.
And worst of all you are complaining and winging about it.
Blame is a pretty worthless concept this long after the fact, I am not really angry about this and wasn't at the time either. The point of this thread was about how to avoid such incidents in the future. I am not trying to blame anybody. To paraphrase my posts this thread: at the time of the incident, something wasn't working. She was getting frustrated, I was getting hurt. Neither of us could really see what the problem was. I could have dropped my attacks to the stage where her training would have been worthless in order to avoid getting hurt, but chose not to in order to try to salvage some value from the session. Months later, and I think I have a handle on what was going wrong after a training session on a similar technique.

Why on earth would I want to come online to lay blame on and whinge about an anonymous training partner for an incident that happened several months ago.

I'm not entirely sure why you took such offense at the fact that I think I have a handle on what was going wrong, that you decided on the basis of a summary of one side of an incident at which you were not present that you know better about what was happening than I do.
Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
For me it is not really an acceptable line to take, hence my lack of compassion for your current predicament.
I have no interest in trying to badmouth anonymous people, they are such unsatisfactory targets of abuse. I'm not trying to take a line against her here.
Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
If you think of it rationally, the harder you attack the more energy you give to the counter and the more energy they will put into their counter.
By the attack you are giving you are setting up the pace. If you attack hard at least the initial bit is going to be hard
This was not really what was happening. You can choose not to believe that if you want, based on your superior knowledge of the situation.
Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
For your edification, some aikido style defends against Yokomen by attacking the arm and punching the face as part of the block standard technique hence the allusion to kindness
That's great. In some styles of Krav Maga, they teach that a good kick to the nuts will drop an opponent very effectively too. That was not what we were training at the time and she would have learned nothing from switching from the principle that we were trying to learn to one that she thinks would be more effective. To do so would simply be an act of anger and retaliation, neither of which have any place in a martial arts dojo, least of all an Aikido dojo.
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Old 05-15-2009, 10:44 AM   #67
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
That was not what we were training at the time and she would have learned nothing from switching from the principle that we were trying to learn to one that she thinks would be more effective. To do so would simply be an act of anger and retaliation, neither of which have any place in a martial arts dojo, least of all an Aikido dojo.
Ah, no, sometimes if the attack isn't correct, you switch to the appropriate waza for the attack given. Nothing to do with anger or retaliation **in some cases**. And considered perfectly appropriate in some aikido dojo.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-18-2009, 01:09 PM   #68
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I see you are big supporter of idea controlling uke using pain So if somebody doesn't feel pain anymore, you will not be able to control him efficiently?

I the other hand, in aikido we are suppose to overcome a dualism between uke and tori. From your description('two choices') it looks like you are going deeper and deeper into this dualism.
1. Absolutely not. Pain is the consequence of resistence, not a factor of control. Pain is what tells us our body is in danger. If I do not feel pain, how can I tell if I am touching a hot tea kettle? Is the tea kettle at fault if I grab it and it burns me? If someone cannot feel pain and they ignore their body's warnings signals, they risk injury.
2. Absolutely not. The outcome to good aikido is compliance. Whether (or not) your partner resists is simply an external condition of that outcome. I will drive to work today; whether or not it rains is simply the condition in which I drive.
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Old 05-18-2009, 02:18 PM   #69
Sy Labthavikul
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Just had a great seminar with Vince Salvatore Sensei of Aikido of Reno, and even though his "style" is very much Iwama (he was uchideshi for like more than 10 years and during that time took ukemi for Saito sensei a lot), which a lot of people stereotype as hard, bang bang bang aikido, when I took ukemi for him I never felt the slightest bit of pain or forced compliance; I just ended up going where he wanted me to go, usually of my own volition. He stressed that he wasn't trying to force uke to do anything, and that uke should neither resist to "lock out" nage nor should he comply completely; he should just move to keep himself safe while still giving nage energy to work with. But if uke resists, nage CAN use pain to force compliance, but that wasn't really the point of Salvatore's style of training; he either used whatever resistance he felt to fuel another movement, or circumvented the resistance by moving around it or redirecting it. He made the metaphor that if you're training for a marathon, then you train by running; using pain compliance is like hopping into a go-kart.


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Old 05-20-2009, 06:49 AM   #70
DonMagee
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Every time I read stories like this I think to myself "This is a drill practice, not a sparing session."

I liken this to a judo throw line. We have students who resist the throw every time. I usually point out that I can stand there and simply not be thrown for as long as I want because I know exactly what is going to happen. It would be no different then just sitting down in the throw line and letting them try to throw me from my butt.

It's ok to give pointers or inform them that they didn't have your balance, but eventually you just have to let them practice the technique or the throw line never moves on.

If you want to see real application, then you need to stop with the weird resist what I already know is coming thing and just throw down.

So in conclusion, you will be able to throw me 9 out of 10 times when we are drilling, but when the randori starts and you still can't take my balance, well then your going for a ride.

- Don
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Old 05-20-2009, 07:27 PM   #71
Mark Gibbons
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
Steve Thomas wrote: View Post
... I will always give a proper, full-force attack. I do this because I think both Uke and Tori learn more that way.
I don't think givings proper full force attack is the best way to learn, for someone with 7 months of experience. It might depend on what you mean by full force attack though. Full speed, multiple attacks with combinations, tracking, kicking, biting and scratching attacks, with surprise live knife pulls? Some nages won't survive that and I would be surprised if you don't already use a lot of judgement about how hard to attack

Quote:
[... At this point I only really had two options: weaken the attack and start falling easy or put up with the pain and keep going. ...
I can think of a few more options. You probably have too.

Quote:
..I think the impacts had bruised and inflamed the tendons in a nasty case of tendonitis. ..
Yikes, sounds really unpleasant. Moving body parts so that they don't get hurt is part of ukemi. Your arm is a body part and you had the option of doing something else with it.

Quote:
How would you deal with this situation? ...I don't really want to become an "easy Uke" when training with her, since nobody learns anything that way and there is no point in training if nothing is being learned. ...
I try not to do do things that cause me a lot of excess unneeded pain. So I would have changed either the strikes or how I received the blocks that were part of her technique.

I think you are overstating a bit when you say nobody learns anything from an easy uke. That statement is quite a step up from wanting to give proper full force attacks because people learn more that way. Committed attacks don't have to be fast, or stiff or any of the other things that people think make them full force. Slow training is frequently the fastest way to learn new things and really get some of the details. Many of the easy ukes I know are letting me figure out the moves, while they are figuring out how to reverse what I'm doing, looking for opening, and looking for places to hit me.

Thank you for starting an interesting thread.

Regards,
Mark
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:09 PM   #72
Keith Larman
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Just to toss something in.

Sometimes I get to be on the receiving end of a poor, overpowered technique. Why? Well, I try to attack appropriately given the partner's level of ability. But... I'm a big guy. I polish swords all day long and I have a very strong upper body. Strong arms, thick arms, and shorter legs (> 30" inseam but I'm 6 feet tall). So I'm all upper body, ectomorphic, light weight training, still polishing swords hard every day kinda guy. So some go into a sort of "extra umph" mode with me. And I've got the pain in my wrists, elbows and shoulders to show for it. No better way to get someone to lose their "aiki" than to have a big guy attack. They immediately tighten up and try to muscle things. And if they're half good what that really means is that I tend to get hurt. Right now I'm typing with a *very* sore wrist from a shodan's way over-enthusiastic sankyo. All wrist lock, zero kuzushi.

It goes both ways. Frankly if I have someone attacking me and I'm "colliding" I'll often ask them to slow down a bit so I can work on my timing and distance -- obviously something is wrong. But there are also times when a junior person will be attacking and quite frankly it sometimes feel more like they're "testing" their seniors a bit. Happens a lot especially in the nikyu through shodan grades. They're trying to hang more with the higher skilled people, but often they confuse hard attack with good attacks. Personally I don't hesitate to ask them to slow down so I can improve.

I'll also point out that sometimes with some newer students they will give a seriously intense attack even though I am concerned they may not be able to handle the ukemi if I follow through correctly with the technique. So sometimes the technique ends up a bit jarring or awkward. That's more about me trying to protect them from harm.

But some students really do want to go at that speed. And sometimes they end up on their butts. As already posted, it is martial arts. Sometimes it's gonna hurt. No one of any integrity will *try* to hurt someone as a vindictive effort, but sometimes a student simply won't listen and continues to push the envelope. I know that was in a large part how I approached it as well. And I had my share of "life experience" moments on the mat over the years as a result of it. I learned a lot from those. Sometimes it was that I was pushing beyond my abilities. I paid for those. Sometimes it was a reminder that I wasn't at the level I thought I was. Good lesson. And now I find myself sometimes on the other end of that.

So no easy answers from me. Just observations from my own training. I'm all for pushing yourself. I'm all for giving a sincere attack. Over time you need to learn when and where that is appropriate, however. And maybe develop a little more sensitivity as to when a 100% intensity may not be the best choice. You are supposed to be working *together* to figure this stuff out. Banging your head (or their head) against a wall repeatedly usually won't fix anything.

But maybe one or two times being tossed over it may make the point...

Just my rambling all-over-the-map take on the thread in general.

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Old 05-20-2009, 09:29 PM   #73
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

I haven't read the entire thread yet (it's long! ), which I will do soon. Some comments though after reading through the first page and part of the second.

1. Some people seem to be faulting the OP for resisting, and even encourage him to "give his center away". My sensei teaches that Nage's job to unbalance Uke. This is the first thing that must be done, before every technique. If Nage cannot unbalance Uke, the technique is not going to work. If Uke simply gives Nage his balance, then Nage has not learned to take Uke's balance, and so is basically learning the technique wrong (or you could say, not learning it at all). Even when we work compliantly without resistance, we always unbalance.

2. To the OP, I think you should have talked to Nage and worked things out, rather than each of you making decisions (her to hit you harder and you to continue attacking exactly the same as before) without communicating with each other.

3. Since you didn't know how to help her with the technique, it probably would have been a good idea to get the teacher or one of the senior students over to help.
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Old 06-21-2009, 11:45 AM   #74
Lyle Bogin
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

FIrst of all, I love how this story is essentially "I got beat up by a girl!"

Good aikidoists are like brick walls in the sense that you can kind of figure out what's going to happen if you slam your arm into them.

I think the best way to advance is to subject yourself to the instruction of all those above you, even if you think their technique is below par. First of all, you can't really tell who is good and why yet. Second, just because a person cannot "defeat" you doesn't mean that the skills they could show you wouldn't help you "defeat" others, or dare I say it yourself.

I have my favorite sempai, and I have a few that I hold criticism for. Many of my kohai come eager to learn, and a few roll their inner eyes and wait for someone else to come flop with. I'm sure I've chased some poor suckers off of the mat entirely.

Everyone is a mixed bag, and if you want people to tolerate your inadequacy, you should tolerate theirs. After all, if you're anything like me you'll find out you were so wrong in the first place you'll wonder what the guy you'll be in another 10 years will think.
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Old 06-21-2009, 03:20 PM   #75
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Drop to the floor and SCREAM as loud as you can, all the while flopping about like a fish out of water.
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