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Old 05-26-2009, 09:41 PM   #1
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

Greetings!
Was watching some vids and came across this of Ryabko of Systema.
Not sure if it's interesting to you; but liked how the progression was indicated from hard training to softer.

Mike - do you reckon you see evidence of the subtleties you spoke of, or is this just timing?
I think Ryabko hints at something near the end.
It's long but I thought it was worth posting, just for fun.

Ryabko shows No Contact Progression

All the best,
Josh
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:07 AM   #2
DH
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Re: Systema No Contact Techniques

I think your user name answers the practice quite succinctly...thisisnotreal.

You are not going to lead someone when, and if, their attacks do not offer their center for you in the first place. There is nothing to lead.
Stop watching the teachers in videos
Just like with aikido- stop watching the nage. In this case stop watching M and V in their videos, blank them out and watch the ukes. Trained fighters do not move or act that way. trained internal guys would be a whole different world for most of these no touch method people of any style.
No... I am NOT dismissing Systema. Just some of their practices.
Cheers
DAn

Last edited by DH : 05-27-2009 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:52 AM   #3
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Systema No Contact Techniques

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think your user name answers the practice quite succinctly...thisisnotreal.

Cheers
Dan
HA! I'm still grinning stupidly.
Thanks for your post.

And thank you for the ideas.

Josh
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:56 PM   #4
Marc Abrams
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Re: Systema No Contact Techniques

Dan:

I respectfully disagree with your point on this. Without really putting time in training fully in their methods, you are not really in a position to talk about what practices they do work, or do not work for that matter. Unlike many other arts, what they do has been "field tested" in combat situations. The attacker's fluidity is part of their training process. I have been quite impressed in watching experienced Systema teachers engaging is "tests" with other martial artists. They are formidable attackers and defenders who seem to maintain better centers than most.

Marc Abrams
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Old 05-27-2009, 01:43 PM   #5
DH
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Re: Systema No Contact Techniques

Hello Marc
I am not saying Systema can't deliver-in fact I have made the case that it does. I personally know teachers in it who can. that is neither the purpose or intent of my comments.
I always say the same thing-stop looking at the teacher and look at the student (uke in Japanese terms) Does the term "pre-conditioned response" have meaning? And is there is a reason it is deeply rooted in cooperative arts. Do you know of active aggressive and trained fighters who move and more importantly "respond" like that? Care to tell me who?

I just hate this stuff being thrown about the web with little to no explanation. I looks just like the worst of the aikido and daito ryu training out there.

1. No fighters I know of or people I train with give up their center like that while attacking or in response There is no reason to think that people attack and then give up their bodies like that. And yes I am aware of the sensitivity training and I disagree with it. There are other ways to train and change the body. Much like receiving a punch standing there...or with receiving one with an active mind and body in motion are very different things- so is free form attacking with rational responses to counters and movement.
Training to attack and fight with a connected and powerful body and receiving and exchanging energy does NOT have to look like that at all. We do our own version of that- that does not rely on that cooperative level to chang the body and it'r reaction response to force and movement. It is rational and it works as well. There are many methods to train. There is no requirement that we agree to them all.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 05-27-2009, 01:57 PM   #6
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Systema No Contact Techniques

Hi Dan,

Quote:
Do you know of active aggressive and trained fighters who move and more importantly "respond" like that? Care to tell me who?
I remember reading about receiving Ueshiba's technique as receiving 10,000 volt shock.
If it really is a body-quaking shock to the kokyu-structure of the body …
Well..then I'm guessing that a person would subconsciously do just about anything to stay ‘off that ‘line'. (/i.e. avoiding the closed circuit)

Then..given this hypothetical situation, the first generation student of the teacher who has ‘it' will have students that will be, let's say, inclined to "respond" like that, somewhat naturally, after a while of training.

Now…extrapolating this line of thought, subsequent generations of students may only be following the outer form…and … respond like that without the original cause which caused it.

My thoughts only. I mean no insult anywhere.

Josh

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 05-27-2009 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 05-27-2009, 02:48 PM   #7
Marc Abrams
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Re: Systema No Contact Techniques

Dan:

You know that I am in total agreement that we can agree to disagree. It is being dismissive of something without a deep understanding of it is a position that I do not take.

Do not mistake their sensitivity training to represent giving away one's center in a fight. My experience in watching teacher & student, feeling, feeling a "tap" from Ryabko and trying to "wrastle" with Vlad, is that what appears to be giving up the center is actually moving in a most unusual manner that keeps their center while taking me off my center.

Most of those guys are open-minded and do not mind "playing around" with other martial artists. You may have already done so, or you may want to do so. I do not really have a deep understanding of a lot of their training, but I certainly respect their results and have incorporated some of what they do into my training and teaching.

Regards,

marc abrams
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Old 05-27-2009, 02:56 PM   #8
DH
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Re: Systema No Contact Techniques

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Hi Dan,
I remember reading about receiving Ueshiba's technique as receiving 10,000 volt shock.
If it really is a body-quaking shock to the kokyu-structure of the body …
Well..then I'm guessing that a person would subconsciously do just about anything to stay ‘off that ‘line'. (/i.e. avoiding the closed circuit)

Then..given this hypothetical situation, the first generation student of the teacher who has ‘it' will have students that will be, let's say, inclined to "respond" like that, somewhat naturally, after a while of training.

Now…extrapolating this line of thought, subsequent generations of students may only be following the outer form…and … respond like that without the original cause which caused it.

My thoughts only. I mean no insult anywhere.

Josh
Josh

The old saw about feeling like you received a shock is teachable. FWIW it originated from DR. Takeda Sagawa and Kodo were known for it. Ueshiba was just being a good DR boy in displaying it. Sorry, nothing new there. You are correct that it becomes an avoidance issue for ukes, or should we say ukes trained to dive in response.

Have you considered that there is a way to train to receive it and cancel it change it and throw it right back at them?
It is a sad seeing teachers capable of delivering power having their students act like the straights in receiving that power...instead of creating students to beat them...dontcha think?
Cheers
Dan
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:05 PM   #9
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Systema No Contact Techniques

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
[snip]
..., is that what appears to be giving up the center is actually moving in a most unusual manner that keeps their center while taking me off my center.
[/snip]
Regards,

marc abrams
Hi Marc,
Could I ask you:
Do you think this unusual movement is maintaining the ability to issue the '10,000 volt shot',? More specifically, is it that the unusual movement very clearly communicates to uke that the ability to give 'the shot' is still there?

Or would you suggest a different dynamic effect entirely?

Cheers,
Josh
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:10 PM   #10
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Re: Systema No Contact Techniques

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
[snip]

Have you considered that there is a way to train to receive it and cancel it change it and throw it right back at them?
It is a sad seeing teachers capable of delivering power having their students act like the straights in receiving that power...instead of creating students to beat them...dontcha think?
Cheers
Dan
Hi Dan,
Thank you very much for your post.

I find the thought that ukes hara could move so fast to instantaneously absorb, distribute ..and even return the shock almost unbelievable. But I think this is what must be alluded to.

Consciously doing it is one thing (i.e. slow standing test) but dynamically like that? Yamabiko, wasn't it? (sp?) Way of the mountain echo. I think this is what it points to, but it boggles the mind.

I agree with the rest of your post.

Cheers
Josh
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:44 PM   #11
DH
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Re: Systema No Contact Techniques

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Hi Dan,
Thank you very much for your post.

I find the thought that ukes hara could move so fast to instantaneously absorb, distribute ..and even return the shock almost unbelievable. But I think this is what must be alluded to. Consciously doing it is one thing (i.e. slow standing test) but dynamically like that?

Cheers
Josh
Well in a word...yes. the shock is not nearly the same shock -say on trained body, as compared to an untrained one-a normal martial artist. or those uke in some of the videos-one of whom I have felt all these years later who still ain't much in my book. And thats just a start without the one with the trained body being "on" as well. You would have to have had exeprience in canceling out, and redirecting power, instantly-sometimes without thought sometimes with -of some pretty substantial people to know and believe what I am talking about. That's okay to doubt it. I would as well.
It is not for no good reason that we keep citing "the changing of the body", "the need to temper the body to creat aiki". And that's just the start. You...like so many others keep talking about "doing" stuff and the "timing" of it.

Quote:
Yamabiko, wasn't it? (sp?) Way of the mountain echo. I think this is what it points to, but it boggles the mind.
The mounain echo is interesting in that it can be created in the body differently. One is slower than the other and less clean the other more instant and more manipulative. But, "echo" is an interesting thought. I had some facinating hands-on discussions with a Chinese teacher over here visiting about that very idea.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:49 PM   #12
Marc Abrams
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Re: Systema No Contact Techniques

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Hi Marc,
Could I ask you:
Do you think this unusual movement is maintaining the ability to issue the '10,000 volt shot',? More specifically, is it that the unusual movement very clearly communicates to uke that the ability to give 'the shot' is still there?

Or would you suggest a different dynamic effect entirely?

Cheers,
Josh
Interesting question! I honestly do not know enough about Systema to genuinely answer it. All that I can say is that when I had an opportunity to "wrastle" with Vlad, I felt as though I was trying to get a hold of a greased eel and I knew that he could have finished me off at any moment. I was genuinely surprised by what I had experienced. I wish there was a very good instructor in nearby, because I would definitely like to learn more about this art.

Marc Abrams
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Old 05-27-2009, 05:20 PM   #13
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Systema No Contact Techniques

I don't have direct experience with Systema but from what I've seen in video it seems to me there are valuable things in their method.

However, if experienced Systema practitioneers like Starov and Frolov when engaged in a fight (see video) perform like unskilled teenagers in a schoolyard brawl, then there is something that escapes me.

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Old 05-27-2009, 06:40 PM   #14
DH
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Re: Systema No Contact Techniques

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Dan:

You know that I am in total agreement that we can agree to disagree. It is being dismissive of something without a deep understanding of it is a position that I do not take.

Do not mistake their sensitivity training to represent giving away one's center in a fight. My experience in watching teacher & student, feeling, feeling a "tap" from Ryabko and trying to "wrastle" with Vlad, is that what appears to be giving up the center is actually moving in a most unusual manner that keeps their center while taking me off my center.

Most of those guys are open-minded and do not mind "playing around" with other martial artists. You may have already done so, or you may want to do so. I do not really have a deep understanding of a lot of their training, but I certainly respect their results and have incorporated some of what they do into my training and teaching.

Regards,

marc abrams
Hello Marc
I'll try one last time.
1. I am not talking about R or V's effectiveness, -I happen to agree with you-so repeating it doesn't move the discussion forward.
2. Neither am I talking about their movement in the video so repeating what they are doing and feel like doesn't help either.
3. I am only discussing the behavior and movement of the ukes in their offering of their bodies instead of attacking (no one anywhere is attacking anyone with anything that I have ever seen as an attack form, keeping your own center and throwing fients and countering or fitting in for throws)
Nor do I see any cogent rational responses to Ryabko's movement other than for the uke to continue his flow in falling down as their response to Ryabko's own movement.
If you don't want to talk about it- okay. But, please just don't keep saying the same thing over and over about what Ryabko and Vlad feel like when I haven't discussed them even once.
Talk about
1. Uke's and THEIR body structure during these oft repeated videos where they do NOT offer centered and experienced attacks; such as stand off and away feints, jabs and strikes and good kicking and evasions and fit ins for throws for someone to try and use.
instead I see
2. Ukes and their bodies in full cooperation; following and fitting in-to the supposed fit-in of the defender thus making an aikido like blend to include no touch throws that do not resemble any real encounter dynamic, fast or slow that I have ever seen.

Slow drills can look exactly like fast movement they are used in many arts and in free form training. Here, I am discussing a single training aspect- not the whole art-which on other days I happen to like and have very positive things to say. Nothing personal but the "You must know the whole art to discuss what you see" doesn't mean much. With some things...sure enough I would agree 100%, others...like no touch throwing...speaks for itself.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-27-2009 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 05-28-2009, 08:14 AM   #15
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Systema No Contact Techniques

please check PMs.
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Old 05-30-2009, 08:58 AM   #16
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: Systema No Contact Techniques

Marc wrote: "Do not mistake their sensitivity training to represent giving away one's center in a fight. My experience in watching teacher & student, feeling, feeling a "tap" from Ryabko and trying to "wrastle" with Vlad, is that what appears to be giving up the center is actually moving in a most unusual manner that keeps their center while taking me off my center."

This is a good point Marc but difficult for many to understand, I know it was for me. When I first started training Systema I simply did not agree with some of the methods as their attacking and resistance did not fit in my paradigm. Hence I did what made sense to me and stubbornly did not do what did not make sense or fit in my perspective. I was learning and progressing so all seemed good for awhile. Eventually I noticed that all of the really good practioners moved and trained the same way….not like me. I talked with a few people, explained my concerns about the methods of attacking and some of the methods of training and in typical Systema fashion they shrugged and said I should train however I like, in whatever manner that gives me the results.

While I was getting results I was not moving in the ultimate direction I wanted hence I decided that if all of the top guys were doing the same thing then I should give it a try…..even though it did not exactly fit my perspective of how things should be done. It was not long after giving it a try that my understanding of the training method started changing. I began to learn how important some of the ‘wrong methods to train' were to learning proper Systema movement and skill. When folks watch a video they can only see it through their current perspective and understanding, it is difficult to see it any other way. No harm, no foul.

Dan wrote: "3. I am only discussing the behavior and movement of the ukes in their offering of their bodies instead of attacking (no one anywhere is attacking anyone with anything that I have ever seen as an attack form, keeping your own center and throwing fients and countering or fitting in for throws)"

I agree Dan I do not see anyone attacking in the video. While I was not present the day this was taped I can take an educated guest that the attackers were NOT attacking, that was not the point of the drill. This clip appears to me to be the beginning of a progression not a finished product. By using a progressive drill format BOTH students (uke & tori) have the opportunity to learn and experiment in bit sized pieces. The progression can proceed to any speed and level of violence one might want but the beginning drill in a progression is very slow, simple and limited in scope. Realism at the early stages of a progressive drill set is rarely a concern, it is about learning, realism is great for testing what we hoped we learned.

Why no resistance in the first step of the progression? I think that is really the question begin discussed.

When watching Systema footage keep in mind BOTH partners are always training and learning, every drill is designed for both partners to have the opportunity to explore. From the footage seen I surmise that tori is learning to ‘fit in' to uke with regard to body shape, direction of movement, breathing, and tension (both physical and other). Uke, while not attacking, is given the chance to learn study his own tension (physical and otherwise) while being attacked, while being thrown, while being controlled by another. He could closes his eyes and walk forward allowing tori to surprise him with the throw that way he can study the affects of surprise; does his breathing change or stop, does his body tense, does he fight force on force or does he flow and survive? Both partners have a tremendous amount of possibilities to learn in the first stage of this progression.

One of the methods we use is working from death backwards or worst case scenario. That is we start in the worst possible position and work from there until we gain some degree of comfort then work backwards. In the case of this drill, uke is simply walking without a care in the world, tori unexpectedly reaches out and throws him down. This gives uke the chance to study himself and his reactions from a very drastic point. If the first time you are aware of the danger is when you are falling tensing up and resisting as suggested that resistance would only make it worse. Surviving the fall is uke's primary focus. Actually the drill taped has several possible progressions, one of which is for uke to learn to twist and fight while being thrown so he ends up on the ground in a better position than tori. I.E. learning to fight during the transition from standing to ground work, but without directly resisting tori.

For the drill shown, tori is initially working someone just walking as that is the simpliest and easiest person to work against. If tori cannot work effectively against that uke then there is no point in adding more resistance as tori will only struggle more, add more tension, and restrict learning. This initial drill allows tori to learn how to fit in to uke, how to understand uke's simple direction of movement and how to blend or flow with uke. Once there is a degree of understanding the drill would progress to some sort of attack by uke, then harder attacks, possibly adding in speed. Or perhaps tori has his eyes closed upon a clap he opens his eyes right as uke, from an unknown angle, attacks and he has to fit in. Or perhaps there are two people in front of tori, one is attacking the other is not, this makes it more difficult for the brain to process. There are many, many different directions this progression could take but the solid learning found in the early stage when uke is not attacking is very important.

Dan wrote: "I always say the same thing-stop looking at the teacher and look at the student (uke in Japanese terms) Does the term "pre-conditioned response" have meaning? And is there is a reason it is deeply rooted in cooperative arts. Do you know of active aggressive and trained fighters who move and more importantly "respond" like that? Care to tell me who?"

Actually both of the guys in the video are accomplished fighters in the ring and otherwise. The shorter one represented Canada in international wrestling competitions.

Take care,

Mark J.
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