Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-05-2009, 01:13 PM   #1
aikishrine
Dojo: aikido of central new york
Location: syracuse,ny
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 143
United_States
Offline
Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

I was wondering what people think about this question, and if you think that the only real Aikido was done by O'SENSEI, or if you think that we truly are doing Aikido today.
 
Old 05-05-2009, 01:50 PM   #2
David Maidment
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 149
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'SENSEI?

A good question, but then you also have to ask whether what O-Sensei taught/practiced when he was younger was Aikido.

As he was constantly refining the art, was it only 'Aikido' when he died? And if he lived for another decade, would what we now consider to be his final state of Aikido not be classed as 'real Aikido'?

It's a pot of worms not worth worrying about, in my mind
 
Old 05-05-2009, 04:13 PM   #3
Maarten De Queecker
Dojo: Aikikai Gent, Brugse Aikido Vereniging
Location: Bruges
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 139
Belgium
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
I was wondering what people think about this question, and if you think that the only real Aikido was done by O'SENSEI, or if you think that we truly are doing Aikido today.
I'm going to have to say "no". As I see it, martial arts are in constant development by anyone who practices it. People adding new insights and variants to techniques is what keeps aikido (or any martial art) interesting; if it were to grow stale, that would mean that it is perfect but as far as I know, no such art exists.

There is no such thing as "real" aikido. We all follow the aikido of our teachers but in time we all add our own views to techniques and discover new ways of executing techniques because no human body is unique.
 
Old 05-05-2009, 04:38 PM   #4
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,777
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Yes. It's dead. Move along, now, nothing to see.

IOW, what David said. If it is dead, ain't nothin' you can do about it; you can copy/learn from what's there but you can't resurrect the dead. Look at what's in front of you and judge it on its own merits as either worth doing or not.
 
Old 05-06-2009, 12:53 AM   #5
AsimHanif
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 480
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

I would say Ueshiba Sensei's own, unique aikido departed with him.
 
Old 05-06-2009, 06:51 AM   #6
mickeygelum
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
mickeygelum's Avatar
Dojo: Warren Budokan, Ohio USA
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 502
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

I am of the opinion that Ueshiba's Aikido/Aikibudo died with him. The concepts and principles that he transmitted to others did not, hence, the varied perspectives. The observations, perspectives and character of those that surrounded him, influenced what we have today.
I am also of the opinion that Aikido/Aikibudo is the most misunderstood martial art that exists. This misunderstanding is a result of individual perspective.

Just my thoughts.

Train well,

Mickey
 
Old 05-06-2009, 08:06 AM   #7
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Yup and Christianity died with Christ...right?!?!?

I guess there's an argument there somewhere.

Until I personally resolve it I think I'll continue to practice.

William Hazen
 
Old 05-06-2009, 08:34 AM   #8
AsimHanif
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 480
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Wow William...why'd you have to go there:-) Now I'll be pondering (for the umpteenth time) did the practice (dao) that Jesus Christ profess/inbody leave with Him as well.
!?!
 
Old 05-06-2009, 08:38 AM   #9
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,157
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Yup and Christianity died with Christ...right?!?!?
No one lives or practices the concepts or principles today the way O'Sensei did.

No one lives or practices the concepts or principles today the way Christ did.

David
 
Old 05-06-2009, 09:04 AM   #10
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,217
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Onegaishimasu. In the wake of Christ was the Holy Spirit. In the wake of O Sensei was the spirit of Aikido.

In gassho

Mark

- Right combination works wonders -
 
Old 05-06-2009, 09:28 AM   #11
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

This topic could go to 50 pages!!!

William Hazen
 
Old 05-06-2009, 10:02 AM   #12
mickeygelum
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
mickeygelum's Avatar
Dojo: Warren Budokan, Ohio USA
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 502
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

See what you started...
 
Old 05-06-2009, 10:11 AM   #13
mickeygelum
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
mickeygelum's Avatar
Dojo: Warren Budokan, Ohio USA
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 502
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Quote:
No one lives or practices the concepts or principles today the way O'Sensei did.
I am no authority, but,I am sure the current Doshu might disagree..

Quote:
No one lives or practices the concepts or principles today the way Christ did.
How would you know?
 
Old 05-07-2009, 02:28 AM   #14
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Can someone define "real" Aikido for me?

If Aiki-Do is supposed to be "The Way/Path of Aiki", we know that Aiki existed long before Ueshiba M. and still exists after he has moved on (e.g. as expressed in Daito Ryu).

So ones answer will be determined by whether ones concept of Aiki - Do is limited to Ueshiba M.'s personal expression of it or whether one is truly interested in understanding Aiki as a concept unto itself that Ueshiba himself said he "discovered."

Just a thought.

Best to you.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
 
Old 05-07-2009, 02:32 AM   #15
Walter Martindale
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
Location: Cambridge, ON
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 657
Canada
Offline
Confused Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
I am no authority, but,I am sure the current Doshu might disagree..

How would you know?
Hmm. Chinese restaurant, October 2003, Doshu, our shihan, bunch of Canadians. Q&A session.
Hmm. Not going to go there... Doshu has lived Aikido for his lifetime. He is not Oo Sensei (is that Hepburn romaji? Don't know how to put a bar over the 'O') but he does think deeply about Aikido... O-Sensei grew up in an entirely different world from what we live in now. When O Sensei was born, the telephone was a new invention, nobody had flown, and if you wanted to go from one end of (say) Japan to the other, it was a very long march... Now, well... We are all products of our environment.
W
 
Old 05-07-2009, 06:55 AM   #16
Cyrijl
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 188
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

I have yet to see any other martial art rely so much on its founder and have so many practitioners that doubt themselves. This idea that Ueshiba "aikido" (whatever that means) was the only real or true or (insert description) aikido seems a little ridiculous.

Even though I don't practice aikido anymore, I'd assume form the very fact that Ueshiba taught others that he wanted the art to continue. Since he also seems like a rather intelligent person, he would have known the art would change and evolve.

So many of these topics seem to revolve around this idea of 'original intent.' Even if your aikido looked and behaved exactly like Ueshiba's, you would still lack the life experience and social culture which gave him the understanding. For all of the great feats he may or may have not accomplished, he was someone who imparted what he knew to others so they could carry on.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
 
Old 05-07-2009, 10:02 AM   #17
mickeygelum
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
mickeygelum's Avatar
Dojo: Warren Budokan, Ohio USA
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 502
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Quote:
Hmm. Chinese restaurant, October 2003, Doshu, our shihan, bunch of Canadians. Q&A session.
Hmm. Not going to go there... Doshu has lived Aikido for his lifetime. He is not Oo Sensei (is that Hepburn romaji? Don't know how to put a bar over the 'O') but he does think deeply about Aikido... O-Sensei grew up in an entirely different world from what we live in now. When O Sensei was born, the telephone was a new invention, nobody had flown, and if you wanted to go from one end of (say) Japan to the other, it was a very long march... Now, well... We are all products of our environment.
W
Really..

Mickey
 
Old 05-07-2009, 10:23 AM   #18
Joe McParland
 
Joe McParland's Avatar
Dojo: Sword Mountain Aikido & Zen
Location: Baltimore, MD
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 309
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote: View Post
I have yet to see any other martial art rely so much on its founder and have so many practitioners that doubt themselves. This idea that Ueshiba "aikido" (whatever that means) was the only real or true or (insert description) aikido seems a little ridiculous.

Even though I don't practice aikido anymore, I'd assume form the very fact that Ueshiba taught others that he wanted the art to continue. Since he also seems like a rather intelligent person, he would have known the art would change and evolve.

So many of these topics seem to revolve around this idea of 'original intent.' Even if your aikido looked and behaved exactly like Ueshiba's, you would still lack the life experience and social culture which gave him the understanding. For all of the great feats he may or may have not accomplished, he was someone who imparted what he knew to others so they could carry on.
There is one argument that states:

(1) It was O-Sensei's circumstances---plus whatever else---that led to his realizations (aka, "original intent").

(2) It it was O-Sensei's circumstances that shaped how he expressed and communicated those realizations.

(3) The realizations themselves are independent of those circumstances and can be transmitted without them.

Of course, there is another argument that says I am full of shit

 
Old 05-07-2009, 11:07 AM   #19
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

LOL Joe, that was funny!
B,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 05-07-2009, 12:06 PM   #20
Cyrijl
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 188
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Joe, I don't really get your point. And then I reread my post and thought maybe my point wasn't clear.

I think wondering "if" all the time in regards to what should be and should not be aikido, especially in relation to Ueshiba is a waste of time.

You basically get out of aikido part of what you put in. If we found out tomorrow what Ueshiba did some horrible deed, we wouldn't just reject everything he had ever done. So, for that, I think there is way too much hand wringing worrying about intentions we can never know.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
 
Old 05-09-2009, 07:32 PM   #21
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,777
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote: View Post
You basically get out of aikido part of what you put in. If we found out tomorrow what Ueshiba did some horrible deed, we wouldn't just reject everything he had ever done.
Well, some people would, but that's called "being neurotic".

I think you're right -- aikido has this bizarre and IMO unhealthy fundamentalist streak a mile wide. I'm just waiting for all the male aikidoka to decide that they need to that wispy O-Sensei facial hair to be doing real aikido.
 
Old 05-10-2009, 03:40 AM   #22
Arashi Kumomura
Dojo: Tsuki Kage
Location: Torrance, CA
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 18
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I'm just waiting for all the male aikidoka to decide that they need to that wispy O-Sensei facial hair to be doing real aikido.
Haha!

I think O-Sensei's philosophies of Aikido have not been passed on to the vast majority of modern practitioners. The form, the technique, and the understanding may be comparable, but his notions were sophisticated and spiritual and though his attitude and spirit may have a residual impact on how we practice, I think it's more deference than replication reflected in most of our forms of Aikido today.

So, the phisical side of Aikido: I don't think so.
The mental/spiritual side: maybe.

O-Sensei was a wise, charismatic man (so I've read) and I think learning more about him helps us learn more about Aikido. He wasn't preaching a religion (or anything so solid), so I'm not sure that it would be fair to say that Aikido died with him.

To ultimately answer the question, I don't think true Aikido died with O-Sensei, but people who practice the full essence (the mental, physical, and spiritual sides) of what O-Sensei believed Aikido to be are very rare.
 
Old 05-10-2009, 09:34 AM   #23
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
... aikido has this bizarre and IMO unhealthy fundamentalist streak a mile wide. I'm just waiting for all the male aikidoka to decide that they need to that wispy O-Sensei facial hair to be doing real aikido.
WOW! That is a strongly prejudicial, insensitive and mean spirited thing to say about men, it is insultive to me. It doesn't have anything to do with the discussion. Maybe it does, as it shows maybe Aikido did die with him.

Talk about a bizarre unhealthy fundamentalist streak or should I say stereotype that seems to be alive and well. Don't you agree Mary.

Last edited by Buck : 05-10-2009 at 09:48 AM.
 
Old 05-10-2009, 09:46 AM   #24
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

I have pointed to this in many threads talking about original Aikido, and finding the origins of Aikido. I don't think it is dead, just purposely shoved under the rug and lost in the face of egos and gaining fame of others (the old pay-off in being samurai and samurai culture - to gain fame as being the champion - that still underpins Japanese martial arts).

Last edited by Buck : 05-10-2009 at 09:50 AM.
 
Old 05-10-2009, 10:14 AM   #25
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,157
Offline
Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
. I'm just waiting for all the male aikidoka to decide that they need to that wispy O-Sensei facial hair to be doing real aikido.
You have to be over sixty and have gray hair. I've got six years to go.

David
 

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yoshinkai - Beyond the "Hard Style" Label Susan Dalton Columns 8 11-16-2011 06:53 AM
Steven Seagal Interview ad_adrian General 45 01-15-2010 03:34 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 12 Peter Goldsbury Columns 32 05-16-2009 06:05 PM
AikiWeb Raffle for Mary Heiny Sensei akiy General 68 05-27-2008 10:37 AM
What Aikido is Not (IMHO) SeiserL Columns 17 12-24-2007 02:23 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:59 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate