Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-24-2009, 09:23 AM   #26
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

A few instances in my "youth" involving very aggressive punch/kick fellows ended quickly when the world turns upside down very quickly and they hit the hard surface in dramatic fashion. One fellow that made the mistake of not growing up learning ukemi and proper falling sustained a hip fracture. Boxers don't think about learning to fall. If you're proficient at ashi waza, they really work.

Peter, things continue to happen and I have survived. I'm living in the Pacific Northwest now and am glad to get out of the heat. Keep in touch.

Hi Szczepan, I heard a long time ago that the hardest and most important thing about budo practice is finding the right teacher. I think it's true.

Last edited by Chuck Clark : 04-24-2009 at 09:26 AM.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2009, 10:19 AM   #27
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
The only thing Chuck, that a fresh beginner will learn this kind of spirit much faster with right judo instructor then in aikido.
And I agree with Peter, most aikidoka only talk.
More Irony...with a "little apples and oranges" fallacy thrown in...

Most Aikidoka and Judoka do not post on message boards They're too busy practicing and living thier lives...

Some of us however love to post....LOL

Kano Shihan knew the differance by the way...

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2009, 10:43 AM   #28
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hi Ron,
A tire? The tires are for children. The Real Judo Fighter practice sweeps on tree trunk or elecrical pillar. < - it is not a joke.
Not much different from Thai boxers, neh? Used to do a bit of that myself in my back yard. <-- it is not a joke...

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2009, 03:21 PM   #29
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,093
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Well a judoka is more likely to make what he talks about work where a Aikidoist will often just talk.
Hi Peter! I was just thinking how I missed your posts, et voila!
Why do you think this is the case (w/re: talking and making stuff work)?
Glad to see you're well!
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2009, 07:07 AM   #30
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
I was wondering of those of you who have or still do train in both arts, which one do you find more martial?
Neither-though Judo could probably be adapted "back" into a martial art more readily.

Neither; were, are, or ever will be "martial" arts. They were never intended -to- be martial arts by their inventors. Both of whom knew the martial arts of Japan and cited in various texts that they wanted to remove-themselves-and change what they knew to differentiate it from the "martial" arts of Japan.
Aikido initially expressed a power so profound that Ueshiba could "stop" the martial arts of Japan. In this way it was considered superior too- but outside of- those interests. Unfortunately, most believe those abilities and that type of aikido to have ended with him.
So, why the interest in a martial art?
If you want to train in one- the martial arts of Japan are still taught in Japan and a few are now taught outside of Japan.
Or, train on both sides of the spectrum. Learn what they were and are and then learn the way of Aiki... to stop or neutralize them.
Cheers
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2009, 11:33 AM   #31
georgejjr
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

This thread was also asked on judoinfo.com. I'm not sure if the intention was to start an argument between aikido and judo enthusiasts, but the most common response there was that both neither judo or aikido are martial in any modern sense of the word (that would involve firearms, artillery, armor, air combat etc).

In fact, its kind of a strange question unless what was being asked was how well they worked for self-defense, and in the case of self-defense both seem to have worked quite well for many students.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2009, 01:28 PM   #32
James Wyatt
Dojo: Budokwai
Location: London
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 33
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Find the right teacher and they are both martial. Finding the right teacher is key and can be difficult.....

James
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2009, 09:30 AM   #33
Phil Van Treese
Dojo: Tampa Judo and Aikido Dojo, Tampa, Fl
Location: Tampa, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 172
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

I have done judo and aikido my whole life---judo since I was 5 and aikido since I was 7. Which one is more martial depends on your point of view. Judo can fight standing or on the ground. Put a judoka on the ground and attack him. Chances are he'll be able to defend himself thru chokes, armbars, turnovers etc. Put an aikidoka on the ground and see what happens. I have yet to see an aikidoka lay on his back and do an Irimi nage or shiho nage. Aikido though is great for getting around an attacker and using their weight, force etc against them and cranking joint manipulation on them. Both arts have their good points and bad points but when put or used together, they would become 1 and what an awesome and formidable defense one would have then.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2009, 05:42 PM   #34
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Quote:
Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
I have yet to see an aikidoka lay on his back and do an Irimi nage or shiho nage.
But you're not confusing the art for the techniques, are you?
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2009, 02:16 PM   #35
Phil Van Treese
Dojo: Tampa Judo and Aikido Dojo, Tampa, Fl
Location: Tampa, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 172
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

No, I'm not confusing the art for the technique. I am pointing out that each art has their advantages--like judo on the ground and aikido being able to get around an attacker easier. Short coming of aikido is that most aikidoka can't fight on the ground while on their back. In Tomiki Aikido we can. Judo has a hard time getting behind someone because there is a lot of head on confrontation. When used together, they are awesome.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2009, 08:39 PM   #36
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,122
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Quote:
Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
Short coming of aikido is that most aikidoka can't fight on the ground while on their back.
Hello Phil,
Aikidoka can't fight at all. Aikido training is a cooperative training and doesn't teach fighting. Even if in Tomiki aikido you have some sort of sportive competition, it has nothing to do with fighting.Stop dreaming

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2009, 10:31 PM   #37
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Aiki has the potential to make Aikido one of the most poweful arts in the world, and to match Judo with ease.
Aiki is power.
If your aiki can't deliver this way-change teachers!

Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2009, 11:27 PM   #38
Walter Martindale
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
Location: Cambridge, ON
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 656
Canada
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
.

Not really a question that you can answer. it's like saying which is better a phillips head screw driver or a flat head?
Robertson (square drive)

8 years judo, 15+years aikido. No street fighting experience.
Judo's benefits - training within the rules (no atemi, no face, and joint/submissions only on elbow and shime-waza) going quite hard at attack and defense - make one physically hard, ukemi skills pretty good. "martial" aspect a weakness is that you completely don't worry about possibility of other opponents - sole focus on one person. (story later)
Aikido benefits - train against strikes and attempts to control (grabs) and (some dojo) train against multiple attackers and weapons. Some dojo take more of an artsy approach, some dojo never "flow", and some dojo are actually dangerous to train at because they play close to the edge when they pick up speed. All depends on the sensei. I've been at all three types of aikido dojo and some in between (all Aikikai, supposedly). Where I am now, sensei is former karate, and very good at connecting weapon kata to aikido movements, and at demonstrating the openings for all kinds of atemi. One of my earlier dojo we learned all kinds of good stuff - how to put handcuffs on someone punching at you, how to retain the knife against an aikido person, how to retain a pistol (and how to take it away) - I wore a mouth guard for practice at that dojo, and needed it.

The single-attacker judo story - a champion judo athlete (retired international competitor) was in a boozer establishment in a city while attending university (I won't name the person, the street, or the city, but it did happen.). He ended up in an altercation with someone, and threw the other person to the pavement with a seoi-nage, and applied one of the juji-jime (crossed wrist strangulations) to the other fellow. The next thing he knew he had the tip of a knife appearing out of the front of his chest. Forgot to pay attention to the opponent's friends. Fortunately/luckily the knife missed lungs, aorta, ticker and vena-cavae - who knows how - but it seems to have slipped through without taking out any major blood vessels or organs. He recovered after a significant stay in the hospital. I THINK that an Aikido person would have handled the whole thing differently, and if a fight did happen, would most likely not have ignored the surrounding people/friends of his opponent. I for one would have done all I possibly could have to avoid a scrap, whereas before aikido, after judo, I may have waded in.

Which is more martial? Depends on the dojo.

Walter
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 10:35 AM   #39
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Aiki has the potential to make Aikido one of the most poweful arts in the world, and to match Judo with ease.
Aiki is power.
If your aiki can't deliver this way-change teachers!

Dan
I agree with you but I'd put it like this: "If you're not doing Aiki you're not doing Aikido, go and find an Aikido instructor."

That's what my instructor did.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 10:38 AM   #40
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hello Phil,
Aikidoka can't fight at all. Aikido training is a cooperative training and doesn't teach fighting. Even if in Tomiki aikido you have some sort of sportive competition, it has nothing to do with fighting.Stop dreaming
Aikidoka can fight very well, it's just that there aren't many people practicing Aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 01:00 PM   #41
James Wyatt
Dojo: Budokwai
Location: London
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 33
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

There are no breakfalls in "real" aikido.

O'Sensei reportedly refused to demonstrate aikido to the Emperor as it would be a falsehood.

There are very good martial teachers of both judo and aikido. Each to their own as many do not want or wish to contemplate the real applications of proper technique.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 01:07 PM   #42
georgejjr
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Interesting place, the internet. Log onto the forum for any discipline and you'll hear lots of stories proving that their art is the best, and giving numerous unverifiable examples of masters of other arts being defeated. Its always a bit surprising to step on the streets afterward and not have to pick your way through streets littered with the bodies of defeated proponents of inferior styles.

And yet, when you meet people from other styles in person, none of these unproven claims seem to arise, individuals don't claim that either they or their style is the best, and there's generally nothing but respect all around. I'm not sure if that's because people who really train can't be bothered to slag other styles and so the proclamations in question are made by beginners in the rush of enthusiasm for a new activity, or if the people who put down other styles are simply too cowardly to do it in person when they meet a disciple of a different style. The effect however is quite pronounced, and I suspect anyone who has done any martial discipline has noted it.

Last edited by georgejjr : 05-02-2009 at 01:10 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 12:35 PM   #43
Phil Van Treese
Dojo: Tampa Judo and Aikido Dojo, Tampa, Fl
Location: Tampa, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 172
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Well, Szczepan, you obviously are very ignorant in martial arts, esp. Aikido. I have used aikido in Viet Nam, Desert Storm and Mogadishu, Somalia and I am still here. You musn't have any fighting ability at all due to your ignorant statements. Just because you are incapable of defending yourself, don't judge others by your fighting shortcoming(s). You need to start over as a white belt and learn aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 01:55 PM   #44
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,122
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Quote:
Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
Well, Szczepan, you obviously are very ignorant in martial arts, esp. Aikido. I have used aikido in Viet Nam, Desert Storm and Mogadishu, Somalia and I am still here. You musn't have any fighting ability at all due to your ignorant statements. Just because you are incapable of defending yourself, don't judge others by your fighting shortcoming(s). You need to start over as a white belt and learn aikido.
Hi Phil,
I'm obviously ignorant, indeed.
However, I don't believe that 1 milion of aikidoka can fight in Viet Nam, Desert Storm and Mogadishu, Somalia using skills learned in their respectif aikido dojo.At the time O sensei didn't teach how to fight in aikido and still today nobody teachs how to fight in aikido dojo.Right logic and common sens.

i.e.:
In contrary, 1 milion MMA students can fight in any place in the world with the techniques they learned during their training.It can happen for one simple reason - this guys learn how to fight and fight every class. Right logic and common sens.

Phil, it looks we disagree Do you still believe you represent the army of fighting aikidoka?

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 02:25 PM   #45
Phil Van Treese
Dojo: Tampa Judo and Aikido Dojo, Tampa, Fl
Location: Tampa, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 172
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

I don't represent anyone but me. 1 million aikidoka don't have to fight in Viet Nam etc. I did and I am still here. I have been jumped here in Tampa also at an ATM. 3 against one and I walked away, unhurt. Aikido/Judo serve my purpose so it does work, for me. MMA can fight any where in the world too. It's not the art that's fighting, it's the person. They use what they have been taught and move the way they were taught to move. If MMA, Aikido, Judo or whatever serves your purpose and you can walk away, then it works for you regardless of what martial art was used.
By the way, "sens" is correctly spelled as sense.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 03:02 PM   #46
Brion Toss
Dojo: Aikido Port Townsend
Location: Port Townsend, Wa.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 104
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Hello all,
That screwdriver analogy could actually prove valuable here. The Robertson square drive was developed in a direct response to an injury that Robertson suffered while demonstrating slotted tip screwdrivers. Those slotted screwdrivers have the advantage of being maximally simple, but they slip off the head of the screw too easily. So, basic, but of limited value, and prone to backfire.
Robertson decided he wanted to be in charge of every aspect of his invention, from manufacture through distribution. This worked for a while, and then he ran afoul of Henry Ford, who refused to play along. He instead wanted to license the manufacture of the screws from Robertson. Instead, he contracted with a guy named Phillips (you can look it up), whose screw heads weren't as slip-proof as the square drive, but were much better than slotted bits. In fact the Phillips proved better for the purpose, precisely because the bit would back out when the power tool used to drive the screw hit bottom; square drive bits, in those pre-clutch days, would have been more likely to snap the bit or the screw head. So Henry got cheaper screws that worked better, because in one sense they didn't work as well as the competition.
Now think of martial arts. It seems that some arts are slotted bits, powerful and simple, but of limited versatility, and thus easily taken off course. Boxing comes to mind. Then there are arts that can deal with anything, but which require a technical refinement and subtlety that most people either can't or won't work hard enough to get. If they stay with the art anyway, they'll only get a compromised version of what is possible. I think that Aikido is a square-drive art, (maybe even a Torqz) and that a lot of us are dealing with stripped heads, the wrong size bit, etc.
And then there are Phillips arts. These, despite apparent shortcomings, will get you down the road with less personal investment for a given amount of effectiveness, but they are still deeply versatile and martially valid. Judo, for instance.
This analogy will break down in a hurry if one includes the non-martial aspects and implications of each art, but for me it is clear that Aikido can give one the most to aspire to, the most to realize. But you really have to work for it.
Yours,
Brion

Regards,

Brion Toss
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 03:12 PM   #47
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,122
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Quote:
Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
It's not the art that's fighting, it's the person. .
I agree, but if some system doesn't provide any tool to learn efficiently, event most gifted person can't learn too much.
And aikido teachning doesn't have such tools.
Quote:
Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
By the way, "sens" is correctly spelled as sense.
Be generous with me, English is my fourth language, will remember to use spell check.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 03:21 PM   #48
Rabih Shanshiry
 
Rabih Shanshiry's Avatar
Location: Boston/MA
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 197
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

I came across a relevant discussion in Gozo Shioda's "Aikido Shugyo" that seems germane to the topic at hand:

1. Shioda Kancho was a young, talented, and cocky Judoka who was skeptical of O Sensei's art. He thought it was fake...until he was invited to attack Ueshiba Sensei and discovered otherwise.

2. Three time All Japan Judo Champion Kimura Masahiko said to Shioda Kancho, "In terms of self-defence, Judo, which today has abandoned the use of atemi, has a lot to learn from Aikido."

Shioda Sensei held that the sporting aspect of Judo and other martial arts adapted for competition diluted their martial nature.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 03:26 PM   #49
Rabih Shanshiry
 
Rabih Shanshiry's Avatar
Location: Boston/MA
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 197
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Szczepan,

Your arguments are a bit confusing given your own background as a yondan and USAF instructor. I'm not sure if you are just yanking our chains or if you sincerely believe that Aikido has no practical application as a fighting art.

Could you please explain?
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 07:33 PM   #50
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

The crux of the issue is the intended duality in Aikido.

that is, it is a fighting art.

At the same time, I believe the intent of O Sensei was transcendental.

that is, learning to fight in order to learn peace...so to speak.

you can't have one without the other.

I don't think you should remove the tactical and fighitng side of the art. I don't think you can and still use it as the tool O Sensei intended it to be.

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
So I took a Judo class today... shihonage General 107 06-16-2013 03:30 PM
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 08:31 AM
Elusive Realism Stefan Stenudd Columns 4 09-23-2008 04:18 AM
Highest Level Martial Arts and Aikido Mike Sigman General 240 08-12-2005 06:22 PM
Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists PeterR General 242 06-10-2005 11:13 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:57 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate