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Old 06-01-2009, 04:39 PM   #126
Mike Sigman
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Re: Obama's Spending vs Obama's Spending Cuts

Still not the least concern about Obama's relationship with the unions? Something that has actually been demonstrated and not "supposed"? Goodness. All this concern about fair and honest doesn't really seem to be fair and honest!

Mike
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:29 PM   #127
Marc Abrams
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Re: Obama's Spending vs Obama's Spending Cuts

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Sorry, but I was asking for something besides a simple assertion that Cheney made money illicitly via Halliburton. Your comments don't do a single thing to support your assertion. Are you saying "maybe he made some money illicitly"? In other words, is your assertion really only an opinion being presented as a fact?

Regards,

Mike
Mike:

Please do not distort my words. I did not say that Cheney made money illicitly. I frankly consider his "legal" gains to be quite distasteful. I BELIEVE that if there were total disclosure of all of Cheney's activities during his tenure, I would not be surprised to find examples of illegal activities in a number of areas. That of course is simply my opinion. Facts seem to be missing (aka - e-mails) and so much more is simply kept from public view. As to Haliburton's illegal activities, they are well documented, as are the squashing of investigations into those activities.

Marc Abrams
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:34 PM   #128
Marc Abrams
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Re: Obama's Spending vs Obama's Spending Cuts

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Still not the least concern about Obama's relationship with the unions? Something that has actually been demonstrated and not "supposed"? Goodness. All this concern about fair and honest doesn't really seem to be fair and honest!

Mike
Mike:

Your attempts to distort my views are just that. President Obama's relationships with unions may or may not be a bad thing. Time will tell. Time has certainly showed us what the Bush administration's "cozy" relationship with many big businesses has brought us.

Once again, go back to my previous post about "fixing" government. That applies to both parties, which I consider to be both corrupted to the very core. The only question seems to be: Which brothels have what degree of influence with what political parties brothel contract workers?

Marc Abrams
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:54 PM   #129
Mike Sigman
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Re: Obama's Spending vs Obama's Spending Cuts

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Mike:

Please do not distort my words. I did not say that Cheney made money illicitly. I frankly consider his "legal" gains to be quite distasteful. I BELIEVE that if there were total disclosure of all of Cheney's activities during his tenure, I would not be surprised to find examples of illegal activities in a number of areas. That of course is simply my opinion. Facts seem to be missing (aka - e-mails) and so much more is simply kept from public view. As to Haliburton's illegal activities, they are well documented, as are the squashing of investigations into those activities.
Marc, can you give me a cite on the "well-documented" illegal activities that Cheney was involved in? In return, I'll send you some "well-documented" acitivities that Chiropractors have been caught in. Oh... maybe you're not involved in those activities, so I'll be careful and not imply that you are involved in the activities of all Chiropractors.

In terms of the "emails" that have been a liberal talking point, the problem which has been factually ignored by many liberals is that a member of the U.S. Congress or the administration is not allowed to use official government email for political purposes. So what the Democrats did was insist that Republican members of the administration not only adhere to the law and not use government email for private purposes, they also wanted the private RNC emails to be made available for inspection. In other words, this also seems a bit like hypocrisy for you to bring up. Is it because you didn't understand the facts about the email or is it because you thought it was a valid point to make a "gotcha"? Seriously... I've been having a real problem with the intellectual honesty (or not) of many liberals over the last few years so I'd like to know if you already understood about the email situation before *you* brought it up.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:57 PM   #130
Mike Sigman
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Re: Obama's Spending vs Obama's Spending Cuts

BTW, look at Obama's comments about Justice Roberts when Obama tried to filibuster Roberts (despite his current calls for everyone to be "morally superior" and get past that stuff that he did as a Senator). Remember that despite being a simple "lecturer" on the staff, Obama calls himself a member of the faculty (notice that his colleagues point out that Obama was not even invited to get on a tenure track, even though the implication in the press is that he was a "professor"):

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124390047073474499.html

The problem I have with this is the same sort of problem I'd have with George W. Bush if he implied that he was an "Ace" as a fighter pilot. He was at best, and even less as was Obama, an "also-ran". The BS needs to stop somewhere. Bush at least made no postures of exceeding-grandeur. While some people think that "minorities" are entitled to some excesses, I tend to ask "so what about the 'equality'?".

Mike
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Old 06-02-2009, 06:54 AM   #131
Marc Abrams
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Re: Obama's Spending vs Obama's Spending Cuts

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Marc, can you give me a cite on the "well-documented" illegal activities that Cheney was involved in? In return, I'll send you some "well-documented" acitivities that Chiropractors have been caught in. Oh... maybe you're not involved in those activities, so I'll be careful and not imply that you are involved in the activities of all Chiropractors.

In terms of the "emails" that have been a liberal talking point, the problem which has been factually ignored by many liberals is that a member of the U.S. Congress or the administration is not allowed to use official government email for political purposes. So what the Democrats did was insist that Republican members of the administration not only adhere to the law and not use government email for private purposes, they also wanted the private RNC emails to be made available for inspection. In other words, this also seems a bit like hypocrisy for you to bring up. Is it because you didn't understand the facts about the email or is it because you thought it was a valid point to make a "gotcha"? Seriously... I've been having a real problem with the intellectual honesty (or not) of many liberals over the last few years so I'd like to know if you already understood about the email situation before *you* brought it up.

Regards,

Mike
Mike:

Cheney's passion for secrecy makes good documentation impossible. If there were any full disclosure regarding the leak of the CIA agent would be one area. The convenience of deleted e-mails during a period of probable wrong doing smells worse than a septic tank- to me of course. These are the e-mails that I am referring to. Of course you can believe that the official e-mail deletions were simply accidental, or......(those are the -mails that I am referring to. Not the political ones. Although I would venture that lines are crossed with that alleged distinction with people from both political parties) It is sad that one of the most honorable people around the VP at that time became the fall guy. ex-VP Cheney seemed to have no problems claiming status in both the legislative branch and the executive branch in order to skirt around uncomfortable areas. The convenience of deleted e-mails during a period of probable wrong doing smells worse than a septic tank- to me of course.

The only decent documentation we are likely to get is the cherry-picked material that will accompany Cheney's book that attempts to portray himself as something other than evil-incarnate (my opinion).

You seem to be stuck on linking me to being a liberal. You are far off base on that one.

Marc Abrams
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Old 06-02-2009, 07:32 AM   #132
Mike Sigman
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Re: Obama's Spending vs Obama's Spending Cuts

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Cheney's passion for secrecy makes good documentation impossible. If there were any full disclosure regarding the leak of the CIA agent would be one area. The convenience of deleted e-mails during a period of probable wrong doing smells worse than a septic tank- to me of course. These are the e-mails that I am referring to. Of course you can believe that the official e-mail deletions were simply accidental, or......(those are the -mails that I am referring to. Not the political ones. Although I would venture that lines are crossed with that alleged distinction with people from both political parties) It is sad that one of the most honorable people around the VP at that time became the fall guy. ex-VP Cheney seemed to have no problems claiming status in both the legislative branch and the executive branch in order to skirt around uncomfortable areas. The convenience of deleted e-mails during a period of probable wrong doing smells worse than a septic tank- to me of course.

The only decent documentation we are likely to get is the cherry-picked material that will accompany Cheney's book that attempts to portray himself as something other than evil-incarnate (my opinion).

You seem to be stuck on linking me to being a liberal. You are far off base on that one.
I'm not sure what the emails have to do with the Valerie Plame deal. Richard Armitage, the anti-war assistant of Collin Powell finally publicly admitted that he was the one who leaked Valerie Plame's name. He was not prosecuted because it turned out that she was NOT technically a covert agent. In the meantime a disagreement about what Scooter Libby remembers and what else someone else remembered was enough to land Scooter in jail, since there was a very liberal D.C. jury in his trial... sort of a reverse O.J. Simpson jury. So Scooter went to jail basically as the fall guy and the real guy got let off because there was no crime. It's the sort of horror story that has a lot of people saying "enough... we need to clean house".

Mike
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Old 06-02-2009, 07:58 AM   #133
Marc Abrams
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Re: Obama's Spending vs Obama's Spending Cuts

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'm not sure what the emails have to do with the Valerie Plame deal. Richard Armitage, the anti-war assistant of Collin Powell finally publicly admitted that he was the one who leaked Valerie Plame's name. He was not prosecuted because it turned out that she was NOT technically a covert agent. In the meantime a disagreement about what Scooter Libby remembers and what else someone else remembered was enough to land Scooter in jail, since there was a very liberal D.C. jury in his trial... sort of a reverse O.J. Simpson jury. So Scooter went to jail basically as the fall guy and the real guy got let off because there was no crime. It's the sort of horror story that has a lot of people saying "enough... we need to clean house".

Mike
Mike:

We agree that we need to clean house ! I do not care what political party or what leaning (conservative or liberal) they seem to have in Washington, they all seem to use the same cologne Eau to Feces . A politician that is not beholden to some interest has become the unicorn. Corruption is rampant and the truth is the silent victim whom we seldom hear about.

One of my father's patients was a famous political reporter during the seventies. Before he died, he told my father that if the American people knew just 1% of how things really operated in Washington, there would be riots in the streets the next day. Frightening to think that this was around thirty years ago and things have definitely not gotten better.

Marc Abrams
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Old 06-04-2009, 11:34 AM   #134
jonreading
 
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Re: Obama's Spending vs Obama's Spending Cuts

40 posts later and we still don't have responses to the thread starter question about Obama's spending habits. I'll add to my earlier post some additional facts that concern me...

1. National debt is related to GDP. The percentage of debt to GDP is more important to analyzing the danger of carrying that debt then the actual debt itself. So many analysts look at the percentage and who holds the debt to evaluate how dangerous is a debt situation. In 2007, that percentage was in the mid-60% range; many economists project the ratio to exceed 100% within the next 3 years. That means we will have a government that owes more money that it makes. While the information is available through a variety of sources, I liked this one best. I don't like making the top-20 list for debt ratios - let alone where we'll rate in the next few years.
2. The current administration is applying a federal spending program to raise the GDP to reduce the ratio of debt to GDP. They are not reducing debt, only the percentage of debt to GDP. Again, there are many articles out there, I felt this NY Times article to be simple enough outlining the concern I share. I am not a fan of spending more to make our bottom line look better; a similar tactic that private businesses used previously (and look where that got us).
3. The current administration is not prioritizing national debt reduction. Almost 1/3 of our debt is held by foreign investors, China chief amongst those investors. I would like to see us concentrate as much (if not more) on reducing our national debt.

As I am sure someone will quickly point out several reasons why the Obama administration is not at fault for any of these concerns, I am much more interested in how the administration is addressing these issues. The country elected Obama to change the way government works but the majority of responses I have read in this post are based upon "because the person before him did it," as an answer.

I am also pointing out that the Clinton administration held the highest average debt to GDP ratio of our current presidental terms. So while Obama may have inherited a large debt number from the Bush Administration he did not inherit a large debt ratio, that distinction would be for the Bush Administration following the Clinton administration (Excel is a wonderful tool). Just like consumers, carrying debt is not necessarily bad if you can pay it back. Where problems arise is when we can no longer pay back the debt we have accrued.

Last edited by jonreading : 06-04-2009 at 11:39 AM. Reason: spellin'
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Old 06-04-2009, 06:39 PM   #135
Mike Sigman
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Re: Obama's Spending vs Obama's Spending Cuts

BTW.... here's a good article showing that problem with a lot of the partisan "facts" that some of the foaming-mouthed fanatics buy into without questioning things (because it suits their mindset):

http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/..._the_terri.php
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Old 06-05-2009, 04:49 AM   #136
dps
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Re: Obama's Spending vs Obama's Spending Cuts

The information about Obama's spending and the effects it will have are not just from right wing sources. You can find it across the political spectrum of right wing conservatives to left wing socialist, marxist, communist.

What economic theory is Obama and his people operating from?

What person, family, group, city, county, state, country or company has been able to spend borrowed money way beyond thier means to pay back and survive economically?

Quote:
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....... save every penny you can......
The best advice Obama could possibly follow.

David
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