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Old 04-28-2009, 04:26 PM   #26
dalen7
 
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Re: Integrating aikido with other martial arts.

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post

Right now, I find limited integration potential between Aikido and the arts that I am taking up (CMD and BJJ).
This is kind of where I was going, maybe this will clarify it a bit.
Today is a good example as we used fist and elbows in atemi for a couple of our moves...of course we could not go all out as we did not have protective gear, so its a simulation, I suppose you could say. (Hypothetical situation.)

Now the aikido we do stands on its own without the atemi, but it would be nice to play around with it to see it in 'action', yet with safety...hence the pads and fingerless gloves. (Though I suppose you need to be careful with eye jabs.

What would be cool is learning all of this real time with the atemi, and then going for it with uke doing atemi, etc. and you relying soley on Aikido techniques. Again fun to play around with the puzzle, as it were...

Im actually starting to like Aikido - took 2 years. lol

Peace

dAlen

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Old 04-28-2009, 05:40 PM   #27
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Integrating aikido with other martial arts.

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Even for those of us for whom active combat is no longer a recurring activity, it is not honest to the nature of the thing to make it purely play -- even if it may be play-ful...

The measure I was taught of understanding a weapon is whether you could break it down to it lowest components rebuild it and then deploy it successfully - with your eyes closed -- or don't they still do that in ye olde Armee ? Marines still do and they trained us naval aviators back in the day.

I approach nearly every class that way -- I start with something, tear it apart and then work on a piece or pieces in succession showing how to rebuild it into a coherent working whole. That way no matter what initial reaction to a given attack comes out spontaneously from a student's training he knows there is a coherent path to completion of the engagement -- even though he cannot see it directly, and it does not go in a straight line.

That is not to say that different weapons or arts do not work as effectively as others, or that they are not inherently related and equally deployable by a well-trained user of another, technically quite different weapon. But in teaching a weapon in depth it does not help to initially have a table of mixed M-16 and Kalashnikov parts to sort through with a blindfold on ... An interesting and possibly useful exercise, yes, but only after one has already learned to breakdown and rebuild both separately, and knows the nature of the different parts intimately in isolation.
Hey Erick, missed your post while I am traveling so much these days!

I agree with your breaking it down example. It is important to study something indepth as your example of breaking down a weapon etc. However, I think it is important to focus on why you are breaking that weapon down, which is to clean it, repair it, and make it functional.

However, if you goal is to be an expert at shooting, you simply ned to practice shooting and the skill sets that go along with shooting.

I think this gets left out alot in our practices. I know the army did for years. It left out "Aliveness" in shooting for many, many years. We are now back to instilling aliveness in shooting.

For example, yes, in the old days you would breakdown the weapon, and maybe even the drill seargeant would have you learn all the trivia that went along with each piece..that is all good and fine, but it does not make you a good combat shooter.

Then we would go out to a static range and do marksmanship training in the prone, standing, kneeling postition while "safety NCO's" made sure we pointed the weapon down range and picked up the weapon when they said so, and then put it back down, on safe etc when they said so.

You then shot your target and hopefully got like 38 o 40 out of 40, qualified "expert" and that was the extent of your training.

Well that did not make for a good combat shooter.

So, if you have time, you can skip the whole learn the weapon indepth part and start teaching reflexive fire, moving as a unit under fire, close quarters battle stuff, and making guys responsible for the safety of their weapon as they freely move around the range in a disciplined, but alive manner.

Cause this is what we really want. Guys that can fire weapons under pressure and can not have an accidental discharge in the FOB when they are tired and forgetful....not that they studied the weapon indepth and know all the names of the parts and can get 40 out of 40 on 300M on a static (dead) range.

So, yes, I agree that an in depth study is good I think, as long as we are training the right things for the right reasons. Training should be integrative, scalable, adaptable, and "nested" to produce a desired goal/endstate/or whatever you want to call it.

And it does need to be broken down and it is important to study theory. (BTW, we spend some time teaching about the effects of wind, velocity, trajectory and all that other good stuff you need to understand when dealing with marksmanship). However, everything has to be weighted against the time you have to train, so while theory and background is important...there are other things, such as actually firing the weapon in the right conditions that will always outweigh or have a higer priority than theory.

I think that many of us in the martial arts look at mastery simply for the sake of mastery and that is how we approach our training. We tend to study a few paths, which I think can be very narrow, very indepth at the expense of "competence".

It is like learning to play chess by studying one chess piece and all the potential moves for that piece before moving on to the next one or ever playing a game before you master each piece!

Aliveness with equate to actually playing chess and learning by making mistakes and gaining a breadth of experience. You may even "cross train" by playing other similar games that tax your mind and ability to formulate and extrapolate strategy.

The guy that studies and masters each piece may do that for 10 years before actually playing the game. Yes, he can tell you much more than anyone else about all the potential moves that can be made. I would bet though, that a "hack" that had simply learned through "aliveness" in 2 years would beat him.

It seems silly I think, but many of us approach our martial training with that same mindset.

In another post you commented that it would be like trying to learn Urdu, French and English at the same time (cross training). I don't think it is quite the same. Sure all are languages, but I think that the difference between BJJ, Aikido, and Judo are more in line with British English, Australian English, and American English...variations on the same theme. By studying those three dialects, you can still talk in the basic form, but you learn some new phrases and get exposed to other options.

With three arts like BJJ, Aikido, and Judo you are doing the same. The methodologies are distinct enough that they actually allow you to practice Aiki Indepth, Throws and Standing Kuzushi indepth, and Ne Waza indepth.

If you do it right, you can apply a model of aliveness that can tie the whole package together.

It is like teaching reflexive fire drills, how to do "SPORTS", and 300M range. All are three separate and distinct "systems" or methods of shooting a weapons...but all tie together to produce a "combat shooter".

to be honest, it would be nice to have full time access to an instructor like Toby Threadgill, Sensei. I think he is probably more an anomaly though than a commonality.

Short of that, many of us are left with fending for ourselves to come up with a practice that is integrative, adaptable, alive and all that good stuff!

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Old 05-10-2009, 05:21 AM   #28
Arashi Kumomura
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Re: Integrating aikido with other martial arts.

I knew little about Aikido when I started training and had I researched it before joining my dojo, I may have reconsidered and taken another martial art, not because I didn't have any faith in Aikido, but because I felt that I was built more for something else. I am unspeakable thankful I ended up learning about this martial art first-hand and realizing how enlightening and enjoyable it is. Also, I discovered that I would have been wrong if I thought that this martial art wasn't for me.

I don't know whether you would consider it to be "integrating Aikido with another martial art," but if I was hypothetically faced with an affrontation, I believe that I would rely on quick strikes followed by either greater strikes or a throw/pin (depending on the situation). I know Aikido uses strikes (atemi), but I think that I would use them a bit more, mainly because I'm not completely confident in my ability to restrain someone by solely relying on my Aikido.

So, I would probably use more strikes than called for in Aikido, but ultimately restrain via Aikido pin or throw or something.

Also, however, since I've had no formal training in another martial art, I don't really think you could call what I'm doing "integrating" as much as using sloppy Aikido. :P
(I could be wrong about all of this, but this is what I believe my actions to be.)
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Old 05-12-2009, 02:34 AM   #29
Tim Ruijs
 
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Straight Face Re: Integrating aikido with other martial arts.

Hi all

The original poster mentioned a lack of faith in Aikido when push comes to shove. I think this is where problem starts. First of all there are many different styles of Aikido, which I will not get into
Second within a style many teachers practise, some good, some bad. Not getting into this one at all

These points aside, the question is why do you practise Aikido?
You can win a fight without having to fight. This is what Aikido is about. Aikido is offensive, but not (necessarily) destructive. It sure is not defensive, (allthough you can defend yourself).
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Old 05-12-2009, 04:54 PM   #30
Paul Jagdman
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Re: Integrating aikido with other martial arts.

It seems to me that if someone chooses to specialize in Aikido, it is not necessary to get training in a striking art, such as Karate, with the aim of improving one's striking power. This is because the atemi waza of Aikido (i.e. its striking techniques) are not intended to knock out or seriously hurt an assailant to stop a fight. The atemi are used to confuse and aid in unbalancing the attacker. At the most, Karate or Kung Fu lessons might allow the Aikidoka get some insight into the mind of the striker and the logic of the striker's gameplan, that he otherwise woundn' t have exposure to.

However, it the variant of Aikido has no ground fighting techniques, then the Aikidoka should get some cross-training in a grappling art, such as Judo or some kind of Ju-jutsu. No martial art can guarantee that its practitioners will become infallible. If an Aikidoka selects the wrong technique for defense against an attack, or his timing is off, he or she may wind up on the ground with the assailant in a horizontal position. In this situation, grappling techniques would be essential. The reason why Judo has ground techniques is that Kano's Kodokan Judo school, which originally put no emphasis on ground techniques, was challenged by a rival jujutsu school, which specialized in ground work. When the rival school outperformed the Kodokan in a tournament because of this difference, Kano was forced to realize that ground techniques had to be integrated into Judo. This is why Tomiki Aikido has ground techniques. Sensei Tomiki had been a student of Kano.
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Old 05-12-2009, 05:56 PM   #31
ninjaqutie
 
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Re: Integrating aikido with other martial arts.

I studied aikijitsu for 8 years and now I am doing aikido. In my case, the two blend extremely well, but I also did tang soo do for a short time when it was offered at my college. The teacher quit... boo. Anywho, I say train in one until you get a base knowledge. By base knowledge, I don't mean a month, two months, or even a year. It takes a while to build a foundation. Then you can try branching out. I find that each style is it's own and I don't really blend one into the other when I am in one class. It is nice to notice what you could do from your other style though.

Each style has a strength and a weakness. By training in a couple styles over time, you will help fill one style's gap with the other's strength. Of course, this is just my hooplah of an opinion. HAHA.
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Old 05-13-2009, 07:59 AM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Integrating aikido with other martial arts.

Quote:
This is because the atemi waza of Aikido (i.e. its striking techniques) are not intended to knock out or seriously hurt an assailant to stop a fight.
Sorry, but I disagree. Ueshiba Sensei broke a judoka's hip with an atemi. To me, that is a fight ender. I also believe that the same basic power that is supposed to be behind the striking in those other arts should be in aikido (though often used differently). I also think it is very valuable to at least understand and be able to use (even at a low level) the mechanics that different styles use to release power.

There are often situations where the natural conclusion is going to be...atemi. I personally see no contradiction in that with aikido. Whether or not it is someone's preferred method is something else entirely.

Best,
Ron

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Old 05-13-2009, 10:05 AM   #33
mevensen
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Re: Integrating aikido with other martial arts.

I am just starting training in Aikido (about 1 month now) after 4 years in mantis kung fu and previous experience in another style of kung fu (northern shaolin), hwa rang do, and tang soo do (going back on and off about 25 years).

Mantis has been my most serious commitment to a style to date, occupying my last four years, also the only style I ranked to black belt(sash).

I have found the introduction of Aikido to be pretty challenging at some points, such that I find myself getting corrected consistently by sensei/sempai because of the differences. To name a few of the things I have noted to be significant differences:
  • mindset - of course, the more aggressive and striking nature of mantis
  • ma-ai is very different - in mantis, the ranges are all different, having someone at arm's length is undesirable, trapping an opponent's center can be crucial to controlling it
  • stance work and rooting are different, or at least feel very different right now
  • power generation seems to come from larger body movements in aikido, and not as much from what we called "silk reeling energy"
  • the reaction to a strike is very different - while mantis does have some of the larger evasive movements, many evasions and yielding comes from smaller movements in the hips without significant foot movement. Actually, some of the reading/reaction to certain attacking movements have very different interpretations (in my limited exposure to Aikido).

Having listed these, I can see how the two may come to complement each other, but I also see how they may contradict.

My sensei mentioned that a big difference between Aikido and many other arts is the idea of the sword. I can see that as true, many reactions in kung fu would not be appropriate against a sword, since one is not moving off the line of attack enough. That creates a big difference between overall body movements and positioning between the arts.
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Old 05-13-2009, 10:46 AM   #34
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Integrating aikido with other martial arts.

Sure, from my limited exposure to a chinese art (probably very bastardized at that) I can see all of those items standing out as you begin your training.

As time goes on, hopefully you will see your movements in aikido get smaller and smaller, you will find opportunities for the silk reeling and grounding, and other things may become more apparent as well. Just like you got deeper and deeper in your other style as time went on, you should expect the same from aikido.

Please note that I was also specifically referring to the root of power generation...not tactics, strategy, etc.

Best,
Ron

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Old 07-22-2009, 12:47 PM   #35
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Integrating aikido with other martial arts.

I prefer to study other arts without trying to integrate. Then the points of integration occur on their own and aren't forced. I suppose this is a reaction to my initial study of aikido, when trying to use what I already knew just got in the way.

"The martial arts progress from the complex to the simple."
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Old 07-22-2009, 01:10 PM   #36
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Re: Integrating aikido with other martial arts.

Lyle, I think you make a good point. I would keep the two seperate at least at first. Eventually, a light bulb will click and you will have one of those AHAH moments. I know one of my sempais was trying to correct me on something (I was pulling him straight towards me instead of getting off the line - typical beginner mistake). He decided to crowd me. For some reason, I didn't feel threatened at all. Instead, I turned my back towards him and bent down as if to load him on my hips. I didn't do this, but I surprised myself by going "OH YEAH.... this is a throw from my previous style" I don't think it is something that should be forced. It just sort of happens as with everything else in aikido. Just my opinion though.

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Old 08-03-2009, 12:52 PM   #37
lita hayata
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Re: Integrating aikido with other martial arts.

I've returned to Aikido after a long break, and there is an interesting Karate group forming where I work.

The thing is, at the dojo there are some great friends around 3kyu and 2kyu that also graduated from Karate, and even as a 4kyu I can feel they are "stiffer" than most of the others and don't usually relax when they're taken down and receive arm locks.
Is that a "contribution" from Karate? Do you think that, even if I'm aware of the differences and don't want to mix anything, training it will have an influence at my moves, and maybe become strong, precise and.. stiff when training Aikido?

Thank you.
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Old 08-03-2009, 04:06 PM   #38
ninjaqutie
 
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Re: Integrating aikido with other martial arts.

Some people are just naturally stiffer. It could be a bi-product of their karate, but it could also just be their body type.

Honestly, training in anything different will have an impact on your moves. Whether it is big or small, good or bad, it will change things. Chances are though, that your aikido experience will help you keep your ability to blend and yield better.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 08-03-2009, 09:43 PM   #39
PeterR
 
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Re: Integrating aikido with other martial arts.

Quote:
Paul Jagdman wrote: View Post
This is why Tomiki Aikido has ground techniques. Sensei Tomiki had been a student of Kano.
Where does this idea come from. If anything Tomiki Aikido has less emphasisis on ground techniques - if you call suwariwaza ground techniques - then many other styles of Aikido. I actually don't consider suwariwaza ground techniques but I digress.

When Tomiki taught and trained he kept Judo and Aikido quite separate. A lot of his students and their students train in both (some with other combinations of art) but there is Aikido practice and Judo practice. The respective randori is designed to improve each in its own right. Integration happens naturally especially when you consider that Aikido happens while you close the distance whereas Judo is what happens when you get there.

Oh you can have fun with the integration. At the Himeji dojo during randori, it was not unheard of for people to just keep going if both went to ground. But that really was outside the system practice.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-04-2009, 12:26 AM   #40
wideawakedreamer
 
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Re: Integrating aikido with other martial arts.

Quote:
Paul Jagdman wrote: View Post
It seems to me that if someone chooses to specialize in Aikido, it is not necessary to get training in a striking art, such as Karate, with the aim of improving one's striking power.
^ I agree with this part about not having to train in a striking art, however I still practice from time to time at home on the heavy bag to improve my power.

Quote:
Paul Jagdman wrote: View Post
This is because the atemi waza of Aikido (i.e. its striking techniques) are not intended to knock out or seriously hurt an assailant to stop a fight. The atemi are used to confuse and aid in unbalancing the attacker.
Yes, the atemi are used to confuse and aid in unbalancing the attacker, but I don't think simply flicking my hand at his face with the hope of making him flinch is the way to do this. In order for the atemi to really make him react I have to make him believe the atemi is going to hurt - which means my strike should have enough power behind it to knock out or hurt the opponent. If it knocks him out then the fight is over and I can walk away. If it doesn't knock him out but hurts him, that still helps confuse and aid in unbalancing him while I follow up with either another strike or a throw.

And if it doesn't connect it will be because he saw it coming and knew it would hurt and therefore reacted the way I wanted him to.

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