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Old 04-19-2009, 09:18 PM   #1
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
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Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

I've no idea what the world has come to nowdays. My country Malaysia used to be so peaceful that I've never had fear of walking alone anywhere at anytime.

In the last weekend alone, the paper reported the following:
40 motorcycle gang members surrounded a mother and her son who was waiting at the bus stop and assaulted and robbed them.

Another 30 motorcycle gang members surrounded and assaulted a guy near the national museum.

A man robbed and raped 2 old women (61 years old and 43 years old).

A transvestite attacks women at random. Last victim nearly paralysed.

Even my own brother was attacked by a motorcyclist not 2 weeks ago. And he has since taken up aikido fwiw... (its not my influence I swear!)

Anyway, lets take the first 2 scenarios. I'm sure pretty much all of you have done some randori. And if I've seen some of the videos of Shodan or demo grade randori its pretty much 20-40% speed compared to Seagal senseis randori speed. I would take that his randori may come close to 70% of real world speed (not because of the speed of attacks but because of the violent nature of the attacks. His randori whilst fast and alive do not have the attackers really harming the nage).

Given that, would you consider randori a useful tool for multiple attacks in this surrounded by 20-40 people scenario?

What would you do in this situation anyway?

I suppose my answers will be the following:
1. Not to be in that situation in the first place. Awareness, caution, deterrence and action.
2. To pacify the situation so as not to escalate into full violence.
3. Take down as many as I can before I die.

Sometimes 1 is not possible. If you're walking on one of the busiest stretch of main road (like the one near the national musuem which is about 1km away from a large police station by the way). It'll be like the most unexpected thing to be robbed by 20 people on motorbikes.

2, ah the ideal aiki way. Terry Dobson recalls his encounter in the train with a drunk japanese who was being abusive. Before he can physically 'take' the guy, an old japanese man defused the situation until the drunk practically cried on his lap remorseful that he has lost his job, wife and house. Might be possible when you're dealing with one or two aggressors. Eye contact, voice control, positioning etc. But with so many people, the mob effect takes place. Action comes faster too, when in the former the man wasn't really out there to hurt anyone, he was just lashing out. In the latter you have groups of people who are actively trying to victimise people.

3. Not the best scenario for my dependants. Hardly aiki either.

The question is just a rhetoric. The views here are just my opinion. I'm just thinking out loud you know.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 04-19-2009, 11:36 PM   #2
Michael Varin
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

Listen. . . You can't defend yourself empty-handed against 20 - 40 people with bad intentions. Frankly, even if you are a master with a sword, or have a good combat shotgun and know how to use it you aren't going to be able to win against those odds. The only thing you have going for you with a weapon is that it might shift the fear balance in your favor. If some of them know they will certainly die, they will rethink their desire to attack you.

Truthfully, this is not even a martial arts question. It goes way beyond that.

I don't know much about Malaysia, but my guess is that there are no real individual rights, private property ownership is not truly respected, and you have very strict guns control laws.

It wouldn't surprise me if your former peacefulness was due to very harsh and violent aggression on the part of your government to maintain it.

This is all speculation, but with the symptoms you describe, I'll bet I'm correct.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 04-19-2009, 11:36 PM   #3
Michael Hackett
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

Odds of twenty, thirty, forty to one? I doubt that randori would serve much value in that kind of situation. Those numbers constitute a mob and a single person simply has little or no chance.

What are Malaysian motorcycle gangs like? Several of the major US motorcycle gangs are international, but I haven't heard of any of them in Malaysia. There is one chapter in Thailand that I've heard about though. If they emulate the US groups, they are a different kettle of fish to deal with in that they have a practice of massive retaliation. Defend yourself against one and the rest are obligated to join in against you. Is that what you're dealing with now? Scary, even if they aren't that organized. Not even one of Seagal Sensei's characters would fare too well in a twenty man randori.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 04-20-2009, 01:59 AM   #4
Abasan
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

Mr Hackett,
the gangs are more like the Japanese motor cycle gangs.
They meet up every night to race and do stunts usually with a female pillion rider.
Some engage in free sex orgies, drugs.
Some engage in theft to raise funds for the above and race money.
Some just engage in violence because they've basically lost all semblance of humanity.

Our police recently caught 3 of them who were serial rapists for the past year. All three of them were married, and a couple even lived together with their wives younger sister.

What you say about the mob is exactly true. Even if there is a motorcyclist who was not a part of their gang but say got involved in an accident with car, these gangs usually will come and beat the crap out of the driver. Even if its not his fault or he was trying to help out the guy.

Mr Varin,
"I don't know much about Malaysia, but my guess is that there are no real individual rights, private property ownership is not truly respected, and you have very strict guns control laws.

It wouldn't surprise me if your former peacefulness was due to very harsh and violent aggression on the part of your government to maintain it."

Your assessment here is a bit harsh. We do have laws that's derived from British law. Private property and individual rights are respected but yes its far from perfect. We don't really have hooligans walking around town raiding houses like pirates. Yes we have very strict gun control. Licensed individuals must have very very good reasons before they get a gun.

And uh, we still are at peace. The government isn't violent. We have opposition parties that run against the government. But yes the government takes advantage of their position to control media that are bias to them. But they don't go and kill or imprison rival politicians.

As far as this gangs or 'rempits' as we call it. There are too many layers to deal with. There are the teenagers who are out to have a good time and somehow gets drawn into the excitement of illegal racing and women, then there are also the true hardcore which we are suddenly seeing more off now.

This problem has been gradually rising in the past 5-7 years or so.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 04-20-2009, 02:17 AM   #5
Eva Antonia
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

Hi,

at first I want to protest LOUDLY against this newspaper that qualifies 43 year old women as "old"!

Second, I had a similar situation in Brussels one year ago. Brussels also is normally a very peaceful place, and I also never had fear of walking or cycling alone wherever at whatever time.

But then, I was in the metro, around midnight, going home and reading a German newspaper (der SPIEGEL). The metro was not empty, but there were not very many fellow travellers. A group of German tourists, all male, all in their teens, and all already in a very hooligan mood, entered the metro. They were singing and shouting loudly, and took places in front of me. I think they recognised the German paper and saw I was German, and they started to sing primitive, sexist songs of the worst type (if you translate into English, something like "Women are a ware to share, open your trousers, get aroused, lets share some broads"). There were around 15 of them, all Belgian passengers happily ignored them, and I tried to do the same...If it had been one, two or maybe three persons I'm sure I'd have said something to them, hoping that if they get aggressive I'd defend myself and some other passengers might interfere, but against 15 macho idiots?

I do not think that randori would help anything against 15 aggressive persons, even for a much more advanced aikidoka. But I think what makes a great difference is if aggressive people see that you are scared. It's like dogs, you show your fear and they feel compelled to attack. I have the great advantage of reacting slowly, and before I understand that a situation might be dangerous it's normally over, but I think for more sensitive people this might really be a more important point than knowing randori techniques.

To resume, what would I do?
1) Outwardly, trying to be very unconcerned and not at all afraid, maybe saying something cool if ever I had a good idea (probably not)
2) Inwardly, pray very fervently

Best regards,

Eva
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Old 04-20-2009, 04:30 AM   #6
Abasan
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

Haha Eva, nice story. Something like that happen to me whilst taking the Underground in London a long time ago. A bunch of kids took offence at the way I entered the train having to squeeze past them since they were hogging the entrance.

So one thing led to another and in the end a guy intervened before it got violent. The guy was bluffing when he said he was a police man but its fun to see how the teen was trying to hide his discomfort with his outwardly macho stance.

The newspaper didn't say she was old, ermm I did... my bad. :P

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 04-20-2009, 05:51 AM   #7
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
I've no idea what the world has come to nowdays. My country Malaysia used to be so peaceful that I've never had fear of walking alone anywhere at anytime.
I don't know much about Malaysia either, but I know popular culture has a lot to do with gang violencein America. I've always been a very peace-minded person, but even I enjoyed pretending I was "Ghetto Fabulous" as I listened to the Bloods and Crips; Eazy E. etc. growing up. It's easy to feel tough when you know half a platoon of guys is going to back you up, I suppose.
I was shocked to see "bike gangs" in Japan. One time at the bus stop in Himeji I saw a guy in a work truck decide to intimidate some of these bikers (who would ride in circles by the train station, going on the sidewalk, etc.). Eventually, this guy in the work truck, swinging a stick out the window caught up to the last of the bikers and cut them off, got out of the car and started yelling. The problem came when the rest of the bikers had finished their circuit and came upon the guy (who had clearly scared the kids he cornered). No violence happened, but the options were clear: fight with all the bikers en mass, or take off. The worker took off, wisely enough, and the bikers continued their two-stroke merry-go-round impersonation. All around the world it's the same song: young kids with nothing better to do and some group willing to make them feel empowered.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 04-20-2009, 08:52 AM   #8
mwible
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

So, i'll go with the 40 motorcyclist one. And I choose option 3, because if i feel that death is a possibility from what i believe there intent is, then i will not go down without a fight. Now, also, hopefully i will have my MMA buddy there with me and we can go back to back, id say we would have much better odds that way(althought still a slim chance of survival ). And finally, hopefully i thought to grab my Smith and Wesson 8" boot knife out of my car before this situation commenced haha.

But, all in all, hearing your news in malaysia is saddening, i would hate to live somewhere that i would have to fear every minute when my girlfriend/ family/ friends are out and about.

-morgan

"When you bow deeply to the universe, it bows back; when you call out the name of God, it echoes inside you." - O' sensei
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:33 PM   #9
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

Mad Max comes to mind. Take 'em out one by one

But seriously, a human wave is going to swallow anyone who can't impede its progress. A weapon naturally helps slow those in front, and in turn those following, either visually, or running into the backs of those first re-assessing the situation.

Short of a defender's weapon in your face, a sprawled comrade who won't kindly sit still so you may more aptly resume your bloodthirsty mindless assault can also serve as an impediment.

Obviously the odds do not favor a solitary defender, but I don't think we should so easily shrug our shoulders and say, "Well, I'll just stay out of Malaysia". Logic, oddly enough, still holds in these situations, even if the logical conclusion still results in a dirt nap.
If-Then-Else or 'cause&effect' is not simply tossed out the window.

Without knowing possibilities exist, you won't use them. Randori practice exposes you to those possibilities, so I would propose that yes, randori would help in this bizarre situation.

No, you will not be claiming the severed limbs of your enemies as your own property, a la The Bride(clickety), but I wager that in 20 tests, you would see a statistically significant difference between trained and untrained defenders.

I believe there are youtube vids of Seagal's dojo randori (age's past, some sort of documentary). It seemed to consist of 3 or 4 people dead-rushing nage, and simply trying to subdue them. It seemed mostly that nage was dragged down in the first 5 to 10 seconds.

The practice, if I recall correctly, was to expose nage to the fear/intensity of the onslaught, partly inspired by the fact that you can't do anything to protect yourself for a couple reasons, 1 being you shouldn't trully attempt to incapacitate your uke, 2 you won't want to, as you're likely friends with your ukes. Though it's been a long while since I've seen it, may still have the vids on my old hard-drive, If I can't find them on Youtube, I may just put them up!

If way to the better there be, it exacts a full look at the worst.

- Thomas Hardy
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:38 PM   #10
Ketsan
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

My tactics for dealing with groups are simple. I give the leader a healthy dose of intention and I react to nothing they do. I watch my body language to make sure I'm impossible to read and I just quietly wait for them to wet themselves.
People fear people they can't connect with and can't read. And they fear people with self control. They start trying to reason it out and it freaks them out. Why are you not scared? Are you armed? Do you know kung fu? What is it that allows you to just sit there unmoved in the face of threat and aggression?

I figured this out in school one day. The group that used to pick on me found me sleeping one day and yelled into my ear and though I woke up, I didn't react and they go scared.
So I stopped reacting to them, six weeks later they would get out of my way in the corridor, in fact they wouldn't come near me at all and I could easily stare them down.
In fact they started getting paranoid; they were convinced that I was going to pull off a columbine and they were all within a hairs breadth of me killing them. Rather than chasing me to the train station they were running from me. The girls liked it too actually. Suddenly I was attractive because all the other lads feared me.

I've found that I can use the same method to psychologically crush just about anyone only I've refined it so it works in a couple of minutes.
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:46 PM   #11
Aikibu
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

"We Must Fight a Counterinsurgency"

"Why should we let the 1% of our population control ther other 99% through fear and gun violence"

These quotes were lifted from a parent being interviewed on the HBO Program Real Sports about the exceptional number of High School Athletes who have been shot and killed in the Newport News (and surrounding towns) of Virgina in the last year.

Guns and Gangs...Kid's with a warped sense of honor...A popular rap culture the looks down on citizens who report crimes to the police... A popular Multi-Media Entertainment culture which glorifies violence...drugs...and treating woman as second class citizens or sex toys...

There is nothing most can do about being at the wrong place and the wrong time except try to survive it and protect the innocent...

But we can fight back through the "Art of Peace" through advocacy, example, and courage in the face of ignorance.

Just like that dad is trying to do...

At least that is the path some of us have chosen with our Aikido

WIlliam Hazen
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Old 04-20-2009, 01:27 PM   #12
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
My tactics for dealing with groups are simple. I give the leader a healthy dose of intention and I react to nothing they do. I watch my body language to make sure I'm impossible to read and I just quietly wait for them to wet themselves.
People fear people they can't connect with and can't read...

I've found that I can use the same method to psychologically crush just about anyone only I've refined it so it works in a couple of minutes.
The nice thing about clear hierarchies is that the followers will usually do what the leader says and the leader will usually do what he or she can to keep the respect of the followers. With that kind of thing in mind, I think psychology is a great part of self-defense...maybe even central. Beware the "1%-er" though.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 04-20-2009, 01:46 PM   #13
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
"We Must Fight a Counterinsurgency"

"Why should we let the 1% of our population control ther other 99% through fear and gun violence"

These quotes were lifted from a parent being interviewed on the HBO Program Real Sports about the exceptional number of High School Athletes who have been shot and killed in the Newport News (and surrounding towns) of Virgina in the last year.

Guns and Gangs...Kid's with a warped sense of honor...A popular rap culture the looks down on citizens who report crimes to the police... A popular Multi-Media Entertainment culture which glorifies violence...drugs...and treating woman as second class citizens or sex toys...

There is nothing most can do about being at the wrong place and the wrong time except try to survive it and protect the innocent...

But we can fight back through the "Art of Peace" through advocacy, example, and courage in the face of ignorance.

Just like that dad is trying to do...

At least that is the path some of us have chosen with our Aikido

WIlliam Hazen
Well said! Advocacy through individual effort is the only way mass change can be addressed at all. It takes a variety of effort, from the teachable moments of everyday life (e.g. "random" acts of kindness), to efforts aimed at specific issues. It's a sad fact, in my opinion, that most people are content to let others lend a hand: apathy, cynicism, and isolationist attitudes are more of a problem than the violence itself because they allow the causes of anti-social behavior to fester. Societies which cease to be socially-minded cease to be societies, in my opinion.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 04-20-2009, 02:57 PM   #14
Michael Hackett
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

I suspect the Malaysian police will crack down on these characters in pretty short order. From what I've been told by a classmate from a Malaysian police agency, they have very strict laws and enforcement protocols that would not pass muster here in the US. As horrific as their conduct is, it will end up being a small blip on the radar of Malaysian society.

There is no where in the world that is perfectly safe and we are as safe as we choose to live.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 04-20-2009, 02:58 PM   #15
Michael Hackett
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

When I referred to "horrific conduct", I was thinking of the motorcycle gangs and not the Malaysian police. Poorly worded in my previous post.

Michael
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Old 04-20-2009, 03:27 PM   #16
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

Quote:
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But seriously, a human wave is going to swallow anyone who can't impede its progress.
One word: caltrops.
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Old 04-20-2009, 03:44 PM   #17
MikeLogan
 
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

Nice, I'll see your 1 word, and raise you 10...
Quote:
Mary M. wrote:
...: caltrops, ..., OW! OW! OW! OW! OW! OW! OW! OW! OW!

If way to the better there be, it exacts a full look at the worst.

- Thomas Hardy
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Old 04-20-2009, 05:19 PM   #18
Michael Hackett
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

Boy, do caltrops do a job on patrol car tires! Fourteen units disabled on one road during a labor strike. They make great paper weights after you dig them out of your tires and say many dirty words, not including "OW". They'd probably do well on motorcycle tires too, but the situation would probably look like Little Big Horn in black leather afterwards.

Michael
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Old 04-20-2009, 09:05 PM   #19
Abasan
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

Caltrops

Alex, good story. Outward calmness even in if in the insides you're squirming. Something like poker face for the martial artists. I've seen a documentary on TV about this guy going around the world looking for great martial artists and their feats. The host is some guy with CMA back ground I suppose and it shows on Discovery.

Anyway, he met this Japanese karate sensei I think in Okinawa. The sensei showed his secret technique and I think it was the way he connected. The host couldn't find an opening and eventually had to retreat from the sensei. The sensei all the time was just looking at him with his hands by his sides. No tsuki at all... wow.

But again, I think this ties with option 2. It probably needs a controlled environment where you have the ability to foster a psychological dominance against the opponents. I feel that it would be harder to do with a mob surrounding you unless as some here has mentioned we target the leader first.

There are distinguishable leaders in these gangs nowdays. Yes there will be seniors or so who would dictate general movement, but in our analysis any of the full time members can cajole the rest to follow him into an misadventure.

There are no old school honor in the gangs too. Man o man o is irrelevant. So we've talked about isolating the alpha male and subduing him but that doesn't work either.

You guys remember batman when arkham was broken open by the scarecrow. I know its a movie. But he operates against normal criminals by taking them one by one and creating fear. In the mob situation he couldn't make anyone fear him (ok they were drugged and had lost their senses, but its almost similar to mob theory), thus he was overwhelmed.

William,
what you've said is very relevant. I believe that the rising social ills we have in society today is because society no longer functions with a moral compass.

It used to be that in the older america when you guys used to wear a hat, taking it off in the presence of a woman is considered gentlemanly. At that time, if one didn't do that, another gentleman would have told him to. Doors were open, standing up for them etc etc. Then gradually, common courtesies like those gradually died out. Either through embarrassment or nonchalance.

If someone litters no one speaks out anymore. If someone acts rude and talks dirty, no one tells them off. Its accepted by society. I believe, we start out accepting small things and as we go forward we start accepting bigger things. Now we try not to bat an eye when someone does really provocative stuff like harassing women or mugging someone.

In short, society either doesn't care about social ills or crime, and the criminals make short work of this. They really believe they can get away with it, they also believe that as the strong they have every right to the weak.

Law and justice is also similar. Our legal system doesn't enforce justice. It upholds the law. Laws that are tied to bureaucracy and loopholes that are constantly exploited. Time and time we see criminals are not prosecuted, or if they are, with sentences that does not befit the severity of the crime.

Justice? Well, here I think sometimes the police just knows that a certain gang member keeps getting out even as they spent years on putting him behind bars. So eventually they just bring upon a scenario where they'll end up shooting him instead. Case close. It doesn't happen all the time, but we've read between the lines if we follow cases like the 'mamak gang'. These criminal uses assault weapons and attack goldsmiths, banks and etc. They've run loose for several years before the police finally made some busts. Yet in a couple of months they escape sentencing. So in the end, there was this big report that the police eventually tracked them to their hide out and had a big shoot out that had everyone of the members killed and only 1 being arrested. End result, a lot less grief in the banking world.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:55 AM   #20
Michael Varin
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote:
It used to be that in the older america when you guys used to wear a hat, taking it off in the presence of a woman is considered gentlemanly. At that time, if one didn't do that, another gentleman would have told him to. Doors were open, standing up for them etc etc. Then gradually, common courtesies like those gradually died out. Either through embarrassment or nonchalance.

If someone litters no one speaks out anymore. If someone acts rude and talks dirty, no one tells them off. Its accepted by society. I believe, we start out accepting small things and as we go forward we start accepting bigger things. Now we try not to bat an eye when someone does really provocative stuff like harassing women or mugging someone.

In short, society either doesn't care about social ills or crime, and the criminals make short work of this. They really believe they can get away with it, they also believe that as the strong they have every right to the weak.

Law and justice is also similar. Our legal system doesn't enforce justice. It upholds the law. Laws that are tied to bureaucracy and loopholes that are constantly exploited. Time and time we see criminals are not prosecuted, or if they are, with sentences that does not befit the severity of the crime.
This was really the whole point I was making in my earlier post. This boils down to personal responsibility. As the government usurps rights and responsibilities the governed lose the ability to act as well as their incentive to act, on part of themselves or others.

Disarming citizens emboldens criminals. It allows them to attack with greater confidence, as Thomas Jefferson once said.

Police enforcement is not the best solution and can often lead down dangerous paths. Whether police-state measures can bring the people under control says basically nothing about the peoples' ability to control themselves. Once the balance of power shifts closer to equal, the brutality will be used against the police. We are seeing this in Mexico where drug cartels have proven to be more powerful than the police.

Also, it is a mistake to think that police have an incentive to prevent crime. If there was no crime there would be much less need for police. As a rule of thumb, government will not pursue a course which will create reasons for its reduction.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:44 AM   #21
lbb
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

This seems to have turned into a thread more suited for the Open Discussions forum. Just sayin', it's become a bit of a political rant, y'know?
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:00 AM   #22
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
This seems to have turned into a thread more suited for the Open Discussions forum. Just sayin', it's become a bit of a political rant, y'know?
Yeah I suppose so...
it's hard not to get into the political end of things once societal issues start being brought into the conversation...hard for me anyway.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:04 AM   #23
Abasan
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

Yeah I agree. It was rhetorical and meant to explore how would someone apply what they have learned in this situation. From there the discussion veered to why the situation had to happen in the first place. Couldn't be help I guess.

I wish there was a systema practitioner here that can give some input on mass attacks. I know they train sometimes for this although its never at full speed.

Osensei use to do the surround and attack thingey. Although never to the extent of this many attackers.

In silat we've never done this many either.

According to some senseis they believe that at any point in time, only 6 attackers have access to you. I can almost believe that this is to a certain extent true. If I can keep the first row busy away from me, they will certainly form a barrier to the ones in the rear.

The question is how long can I keep it up before the barrier is bust.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:46 AM   #24
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

Quote:
If someone litters no one speaks out anymore. If someone acts rude and talks dirty, no one tells them off. Its accepted by society.
Well, sometimes I still speak out, but I tend to be very careful about it. 'Cause sometimes people get shot for that....

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:09 PM   #25
Abasan
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Re: Rising tide of hooligans and mass attacks

"Cause sometimes people get shot for that"

That's the real crux of it really. Society is afraid of this small % of hoodlums.

Its like the story of the ants and the locusts. The locusts were bigger and had the ants under their yoke. When the ants finally realised there were more of them, they finally forced the locusts out... still there some sacrifices to be made... like Ron :P

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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