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Old 04-28-2009, 07:54 AM   #76
Michael Douglas
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Quote:
Thomas Donelson wrote: View Post
When my children were 7 or 8 years old,...
You had kids when you were 5?
(Calculation based on poster's current age of thirteen, verified by complex syntactical and phraseological calculations.)
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Old 04-28-2009, 11:11 AM   #77
Basia Halliop
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

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When my children were 7 or 8 years old, I had them in Aikido, and the instructor, who has since deceased, taught my children basic gooseneck wrist locks, and throws or moves ustilizing the elementary wrist locks. My children have grown up without any ill effects on their wrists, elbows or shoulder joints.
I wonder if you know of senior students or colleagues of your kids' instructor? That could be a good resource. Perhaps you could get some of them interested in your ideas (if I'm understanding right, to get a few aspects of Aikido taught in Karate schools?)
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Old 04-28-2009, 03:48 PM   #78
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

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Thomas Donelson wrote: View Post
The teaching of the branch of Aikido which teaches respect for the Anger of others...is my spiritual belief in answers to Peace.
I understand you're here more for information on technical tips, but since you also brought up philosophical and spiritual aspects of Aikidowaza...
I'm left with two basic questions at this point which I think could be viewed as a potential exercise in the kind of thing you've described hoping to teach:
Would you say your idea has been verbally attacked? How have you connected with that attack for the benefit of all parties involved? As you can tell, the critical language hasn't ceased.
I would say there is obvious contention. I don't see you acknowledging/respecting that opposition. If this is the kind of thing you would like to teach, and I understand this is just an opinion here, but I think this is an opportunity for development in this area.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 04-28-2009, 05:00 PM   #79
Mark Gibbons
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

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Thomas Donelson wrote: View Post
Teaching about Pain/Injury of a wrist lock:

The object of any wrist-lock prectice exercise is is to create some minimal pain in your partner, but not severe pain, or injury. It is important that you look at your partner for signs of pain, or excessive pressure.

Once you feel that pain and position indicate yor paertner is in need of release, you can shout, "Break, Release, Break" and you and your partner should go apart, maybe even b ow to each other, to show respect for the BREAK.

Your partner should be trained to communicate that pain and position have been acheived, and that release of the wrtist hold is being requested. Some in Aikdo have been trained to slap the mat once. to signal a request for a release and break, Roy Dean DVD's. Some in Aikido suggest slapping the mat twice, is a more certain process to institute a release and break.

There is a natural tendency to retaliate if someone has caused you pain. It is important for both partners to resist a cycle of retaliation, and to understand that it is the partner's responsiblity to slap the mat, or the thigh of his leg, to make a Slapping Sound. The person in the Wrist Lock can also yell, "Hurts, Break! Hurts, Break!"

The first practice sessions with wrist-locks should be about breaking, and slapping to signal pain. Variations in applying the Gooseneck wrist lock can take second place, until the Break routine is established as a pattern.

..
If you teach kids that the object of the locks is pain I think that's what they will try to inflict when they use the locks. Personally, I don't think the object of locks is to inflict pain. Done well, in my experience, they don't hurt unless uke fights them or doesn't go to where nage is leading.

Kids sometimes get suspended from school when they cause other kids pain. I know of two aikido students that got in trouble at school and at the dojo for showing off their aikido. Your methods when used for self defence seem to be about pain and inflicting pain on children that don't know about asking someone to let up (kids doing wrist locks on serious adults just does not work so I'm not really considering that as a possibility). I don't know how that will work, but suspect it will backfire and end up in escalation and suspensions. I think the training you seem to be putting together from youtube and seemingly limited personal experience is not something I would want my daughter exposed to. My opinon.

I can't tell what you mean by Anger Releasing Aikido. I don't know of a branch of Aikido that offers such a thing. What branch or style did you mean?

Regards,
Mark
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Old 04-28-2009, 06:23 PM   #80
Thomas Donelson
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

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Tom Quinn wrote: View Post
Well I guess that proves it then, You are obviously correct and all of the people here, with decades of experience teaching what you're suggesting are obviously wrong. You came here to ask for input and suggestions, everyone has suggested that you don't teach wristlocks to kids and that you get more experience. It seems to me that you don't want advice you want validation, and it also seems to me that you won't find it here.
I'm more interested in how-to ideas.



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Old 04-28-2009, 09:58 PM   #81
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

When my son was in grade school, the biggest bully there practiced aikido. He put kids in wrist locks. He did that to my son. Who decked him with a right hook. That solved the problems of wrist locks and sub-teens in one school. Dance, however, continued.

On another issue, Mr. Donelson, it has been hard to tell from your posts just what your professional capacity is - are you a school teacher or a self-made martial arts teacher. I will say this - in either event, were you to teach children as you propose - with your absolute lack of credentials to do same - and were one of the children under your tutelage to injure another child in a school-yard scuffle, I, for one, would quite happily testify as an expert witness for the parent whose child who was injured. I would testify that based on your posts here, you are unwilling to listen to expert advice, that you have an idea fixed to the point of obsession that you are right, and that you rigidly argue with experts who do not support your position. This means that you did not approach this board in good faith, and thus do not conform to professional standards in which expert advice is solicited to enhance one's knowledge, in this case, to ensure children's safety. Finally, based on your own self-description, you do not possess the professional expertise or knowledge to teach children what experts consider a dangerous technique. I would cite, for example, that in Japan, children are forbidden to apply joint techniques in judo before high school, because of the danger of damage to bone plates. (And as grounds for comparison, they ARE allowed to apply carotid strangles).
So, Mr. Donelson, carry on. You will make myself or someone else very rich some day. On the other hand, as this would be at the expense of possibly permanently crippling a child, this is not something to look forward to.
Ellis Amdur

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Old 04-29-2009, 08:56 AM   #82
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

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Thomas Donelson wrote: View Post
I have sufficient training to have applied wrist-locks for dance in conflict situations, in my life. I have used Aikido for the release of anger from others, and for creating a dilogue on conflicts. If you and others need more practice to be able to confidently utilize wrist-locks for dance, then I would encourage those who lack confidence in their wrist-lock and foot-work skills, to gain further expertise; either at a dojo, or videos, or friends, or volunteering, whatever.
Ok, I guess more people need to weigh in... You ARE NOT LITSENING...

Everything these folks have said is true. You do not understand or seem to wish to understand. I have taught Defensive Tactics to Law enforcement and Security personnel as well as teaching Aikido. I developed a restraint program for use with juveniles that does not have joint locks specifically because of the injury potential. I have been paid a lot of money to teach that program to juvenile corrections and school security folks. The reason I got hired was because the techniques they had previously been using injured the juveniles with enough frequency that it was a major issue.

The problem with teaching this stuff to very young people is that they have to practice. If they practice on each other they repeatedly stress the joints, over and over. So, even if a particular repetition isn't traumatic, repeated repetition can loosen things that should not be loosened during that stage of physical development.

In law enforcement it is common place for a subject who struggles when locked to injure himself. If kids start using locks to defend themselves on the playground etc, you will certainly have injuries resulting. As Ellis pointed out, being the guy who has set himself up as the authority and taught the techniques to these kids, you are totally in the loop for whatever law suits result.

Listen to what is being said here. There is several hundred years of Aikido experience talking here. You don't know what you are doing, you don't have the expertise to decide to teach it. You are not qualified to develop a p[rogram like you describe.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 04-29-2009, 09:06 AM   #83
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Hi George and Ellis, thanks for weighing in on this.

I just hope it actually starts to sink in.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-29-2009, 10:54 AM   #84
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

If this guy was interested in becoming truly capable of being able to accomplish what he has set out to do, he would be looking for a "hands on" teacher instead of setting himself up as a qualified expert.

Serious multi-level problems in the making with this fellow and those he influences. He isn't listening yet...

Chuck Clark
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:09 PM   #85
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

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Thomas Donelson wrote: View Post
I'm more interested in how-to ideas.

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You probably won't get how-to ideas from people who are telling you don't.

"Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men" - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:56 PM   #86
eyrie
 
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

"How to" ideas don't work all that well in the written medium anyway... IHTBSAF.

Ignatius
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Old 04-29-2009, 05:31 PM   #87
Thomas Donelson
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
When my son was in grade school, the biggest bully there practiced aikido. He put kids in wrist locks. He did that to my son. Who decked him with a right hook. That solved the problems of wrist locks and sub-teens in one school. Dance, however, continued.

Ellis Amdur
I am suggesting using Aikido to discharge anger, and tire out bullies, to boredom. I don't have a vision of what "continued" means. Did you want to share the rest of the story, or were you just illustrating other means of dealing with bullies? There are other threads dealing with other means of handling bullies.

Certainly many who prctice Aikido are not interested in non-vilence, or discharge of anger, or peacefully tiring out bullies.

..
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Old 04-29-2009, 05:40 PM   #88
Thomas Donelson
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Ok, I guess more people need to weigh in... You ARE NOT LITSENING...

Everything these folks have said is true. You do not understand or seem to wish to understand. I have taught Defensive Tactics to Law enforcement and Security personnel as well as teaching Aikido. I developed a restraint program for use with juveniles that does not have joint locks specifically because of the injury potential. I have been paid a lot of money to teach that program to juvenile corrections and school security folks. The reason I got hired was because the techniques they had previously been using injured the juveniles with enough frequency that it was a major issue.

The problem with teaching this stuff to very young people is that they have to practice. If they practice on each other they repeatedly stress the joints, over and over. So, even if a particular repetition isn't traumatic, repeated repetition can loosen things that should not be loosened during that stage of physical development.

In law enforcement it is common place for a subject who struggles when locked to injure himself. If kids start using locks to defend themselves on the playground etc, you will certainly have injuries resulting. As Ellis pointed out, being the guy who has set himself up as the authority and taught the techniques to these kids, you are totally in the loop for whatever law suits result.

Listen to what is being said here. There is several hundred years of Aikido experience talking here. You don't know what you are doing, you don't have the expertise to decide to teach it. You are not qualified to develop a p[rogram like you describe.
Did you have a reference for studies showing that straight line stresses from a gooseneck wrist-lock, in swinging with a partner causes injury?

The stresses in restraining a youngster are different from utilizing a wrist grab, allowing the partner room for movement, for discharging anger, and tiring out a bully.

People have posted exaggerated fears, with no studies or analysis of the techniques I am suggsting. I have searched for studies on the possibilities of injury, and find nothing persuasive.

Nothing of substance is being posted, about the risk of injury, but paranoid opinions, so you are correct, that I am unpersuaded. I hear some people expressing imagined fears. I suggest bravery, to achieve peace and harmony.

..

Last edited by Thomas Donelson : 04-29-2009 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 04-29-2009, 05:56 PM   #89
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

FYI, As a certified Army Combatives Instructor...it is interesting that we STOPPED teaching joint locks in our Level I course.

In my instructor training classes, we make it a point to teach instructors to NOT teach them and the hazards of teaching them to soldiers that do not possess the proper body skills to train on them safely.

In addition, joint locks are pretty much banned in Judo. Even in BJJ and NO GI Grappling, they are limited and you don't see them until really around Blue or some even purple belt level...which is several years of consistent practice.

So, makes you wonder.

FYI, I taught a whole class on Kote Gaeshi in Germany last night. The whole class was about how to do it without using pain by establishing proper Kuzushi. Or as I like to call the class "kotegaeshi, it ain't about the wrist!".

Food for thought!

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Old 04-29-2009, 06:02 PM   #90
Michael Hackett
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Thomas,

I make my living today as a criminal justice consultant and do a lot of expert witness work in federal and state courts, often dealing with excessive force cases. What Ellis Amdur Sensei and George Ledyard Sensei have explained at great length to you is very accurate and I would strongly recommend you listen carefully to their counsel.

You are putting yourself at great risk because you haven't the education, training or experience to teach the techniques you have been describing, your intended program, however noble, is largely unworkable physically or legally, and you have been warned in writing by some real and concerned experts. I can assure you that if this goes south on you, that the Plaintiff's attorney will read each and every of these posts and many of us will be writing reports, giving depositions and testifying against you.

Please make an appointment with some real martial arts teachers in your area and discuss your ideas. There may be some safe, realistic and sane way to achieve your goals - this simply isn't the path you want to follow.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 04-29-2009, 06:13 PM   #91
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

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Thomas Donelson wrote: View Post
Did you have a reference for studies showing that straight line stresses from a gooseneck wrist-lock, in swinging with a partner causes injury?

The stresses in restraining a youngster are different from utilizing a wrist grab, allowing the partner room for movement, for discharging anger, and tiring out a bully.

People have posted exaggerated fears, with no studies or analysis of the techniques I am suggsting. I have searched for studies on the possibilities of injury, and find nothing persuasive.

Nothing of substance is being posted, about the risk of injury, but paranoid opinions, so you are correct, that I am unpersuaded. I hear some people expressing imagined fears. I suggest bravery, to achieve peace and harmony.

..
I think most of us here have enough experience with wrist locks to say that they can do some damage. I have had mine sprained and had ligments pulled enough to completely understand the damage they can do.

It ain't just the guy doing it that is the problem. The other problem is when Uke resist or "plows" himself into it and hurts his own wrist as well.

I have seen fellow BJJer carred off the mat with blown elbows and torn up knees from arm bars and knee bars. I have also seen guys rip tendons in the arms.

Heck, I can't use my left hand right now and need to get it Xrayed when I get back to the states cause I hyper extended it when I fell on it and bent it backwards a week ago...it ain't good.

You generate a fair amount of torsion and stress on the tendons and joints in wrist locks. It really doesn't take much to tear something up.

The other thing is this:

They are damed hard to do in a fight. How do I know? I have gotten my ass kicked trying to do those "goosenecks".

If you want to teach your kids how to control agression and how to hold on to a bully until they release, run out of steam or anything else...you need to teach them some basic structure.

things like the clinch, the mount, Kesa Gatame, the Guard. These are fairly benign. they allow you to control the situation, they don't hurt anyone...and the bully knows he is in deep trouble once you have acheived control of him. Also, you students won't get in trouble for simply "sitting on" the bully. Oh, another good one..."Knee on Belly".

The bully can simply "push him down" and he can pull guard on the guy and it will look like he is being passive, yet he is controlling the fight!

Anyway, if you can't master these basic skills, you really don't have a snowballs chance in hell of actually using a wrist lock anyway. I know, as I have been there done that and do it pretty much daily these days.

Clincal studies, statistics...I don't need them. I have experience with this stuff.

What statistics do you have that say that teaching them without the proper training or experience is safe?

Why not ask someone how to do brain surgery, then pose the counter argument, "prove to me that doing brain surgery without going to medical school and becoming a brain surgeon is dangerous."

I mean, come on... your logic simply is not there.

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Old 04-29-2009, 06:14 PM   #92
eyrie
 
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

A key trait of many successful entrepreneurs is persistence - and the tenacity to not take "no" for an answer. I'll give you that. Many a successful enterprise has been built on people's exaggerated fears and paranoia.

BUT... just in case you're onto something, I've taken the liberty of taking out an international trademark on the words "wristlock dance" in class 41. So if you ever attempt to use those words to market what you intend to do... think again.

Ignatius
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Old 04-29-2009, 06:50 PM   #93
Fred Little
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

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Thomas Donelson wrote: View Post
Did you have a reference for studies showing that straight line stresses from a gooseneck wrist-lock, in swinging with a partner causes injury?

The stresses in restraining a youngster are different from utilizing a wrist grab, allowing the partner room for movement, for discharging anger, and tiring out a bully.

People have posted exaggerated fears, with no studies or analysis of the techniques I am suggsting. I have searched for studies on the possibilities of injury, and find nothing persuasive.

Nothing of substance is being posted, about the risk of injury, but paranoid opinions, so you are correct, that I am unpersuaded. I hear some people expressing imagined fears. I suggest bravery, to achieve peace and harmony.

..
Dear Mr. Donelson:

I stopped teaching all joint locking techniques to children over a decade ago, after reading a series of studies on repetitive stress injuries to bone growth plates on boys who were pitchers in Little League baseball. Since that time, I have consistently argued against teaching children joint locking techniques for this reason alone -- even without the additional problems of natural error or malice exacerbating the inescapable risks attendant to repeatedly exposing growing bones to stresses of this kind.

Your clear aversion to competent guidance from experienced individuals makes injury in practice a near certainty, as does your misguided faith in the utility of wrist locks as a conflict resolution device.

You are free to ignore my advice as you have everyone else's. I'm just a member of the faculty of the Physical Education Department at the New Jersey Institute of Technology whose normal reticence to appear in court for any reason is quickly giving way to astonishment at your metacognitive failure and the risks it poses to unsuspecting children.

I should also note in passing that in some parts of North Jersey, the word "dance" has connotations that are not friendly, peaceful, non-violent, or aimed at a reasonable form of conflict resolution. In some respects, I think that's oddly appropriate, precisely because you're not friendly, peaceful, non-violent, or looking for a mutually respectful dialogue.

So let's not dance.

FL

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Old 04-29-2009, 09:46 PM   #94
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

http://journals.lww.com/jpo-b/Abstra...of_the.14.aspx

"Wristlock is a commonly used physical restraining manoeuvre to control aggressive and violent persons in penal and medical institutions. We report three cases of similar physeal injuries to the distal radius sustained consequent to a wristlock restraint. There may be a higher morbidity involved when wristlock restraint is used on those with an immature skeleton. We recommend that caution must be exercised whenever a wristlock restraint is used on individuals under 16 years of age."

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Old 04-29-2009, 09:50 PM   #95
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

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Thomas Donelson wrote: View Post
Nothing of substance is being posted, about the risk of injury, but paranoid opinions, so you are correct, that I am unpersuaded. I hear some people expressing imagined fears. I suggest bravery, to achieve peace and harmony.

..
Really? I guess the experience of people such as Kevin Leavitt, George Ledyard, Michael Hackett, etc. have no substance.

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Old 04-29-2009, 11:14 PM   #96
Thomas Donelson
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Some posts have suggested not teaching children. I am looking for precautions in teaching wrist-locks to children.

There can be various levels of instruction.

I signed a Waiver when I had my children trained in Aikido, including wrist-locks. So if Instructors are concerned about being sued, I would encourage Aikido instructors of childen to get an informed Waiver signed by the parents.

Wrist Exercises may not have been mentioned yet. The instructor of my children used a dynamic exercise of rolling the fist against the mat, or against the other hand. Purposes of exercise can be to strengthen the muscles and increase range of motion, and strength through the range of motion. By rolling the hand backward and forward, with dynamic tensioning of the wrist, the wrist becomes less susceptible to injury. A step that can be taken early in Aikido training with anyone, including children, can be to strengthen the wrist, and increase strength throught he range of motion.

..
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Old 04-30-2009, 12:24 AM   #97
Keith Larman
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Wow. Just wow.

You've just been given advice by some of the most respected and highest ranked sensei around both inside and outside of Aikido.

And yet you continue to argue. IMHO you are a fool to ignore such advice given sincerely. And yet you continue...

Wow. Just wow. I'm freaking impressed. To quote the Colbert Report, balls visible from space. Too bad the head ain't listenin'...

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Old 04-30-2009, 12:46 AM   #98
Thomas Donelson
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Ideas on Wording for a Waiver:

We, the undersigned parents, agree to hold harmless the instructors and the shcool teaching Aikido, and Aikido Wrist Locks to our children. We agreet to hold harmless the School and Instructors for any injuries our children may experience in training with Aikido Wrist Locks. Further, we agree to advise our children of the dangers of applying wrist locks to other children or persons. We Agree to defend any actions brought against the school or instructors for teaching Aikdo Wrist locks, for any improper use by our children of Aikdo Wrist Locks. We agree pay for any legal or other expenses to defend the shool and instructors against any lawsuits for injuries to anyone, by the unauthorized, unlawful or non-self-defense use of Aikido wrist Locks. We further agree to indemnify the Shcool or Instructors for any payments to setlle any lawsuits involving our children's use of wrist-locks, or wrist-lock information, taught in the shool, or by the instructors.


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Last edited by Thomas Donelson : 04-30-2009 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 04-30-2009, 02:10 AM   #99
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Thomas:

To be fair, I did a quick Google search and was only able to find one link to an article about the risks of applying wristlocks to children.

That being said, I think that you should not dismiss what the people here have been saying. It's not just their opinion, it's their experience. If it was just a lowly kyu ranked student with little experience in actual self defense situations like me posting, well I can understand if you didn't pay much attention to that. But some of the people who are posting here are not just black belts, they are people who are both highly trained and highly experienced in the martial arts and self defense. Their opinions are grounded in actual experience - not just theory, and certainly not just paranoia and fear as you suggest.

I'm not saying believe them 100%, just don't be so quick to dismiss what these people are saying.

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Old 04-30-2009, 07:04 AM   #100
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Again I ask, what is the purpose of keeping this train wreck open? The OP is not listening, will not listen, and will continue to put others at risk using any and all information he can glean here.

It's good that we have experienced, qualified, considered answers to the questions. And they are in the "record".

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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