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Old 04-14-2009, 10:43 AM   #26
Thomas Donelson
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
References/citations please.
Ther are various types of bullies. Sneaky bullies can take on a taunting role. Finding ways to enrage other youngsters is a pastime for some bullies.
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Old 04-14-2009, 10:55 AM   #27
Basia Halliop
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Quote:
The part of the philosphy of Aikido that is intended to foster respect and dispute resolution, can be illustrated with an Aikido wrist lock dance.
I'm actually not sure what you mean, because I've never heard of a 'wrist lock dance' so I'm not positive what you're trying to say or what image you have in your mind.

Quote:
Is ther a reason that Karate instructors cannot incorporate some teaching of Aikdo Energy flow for venting about problems?
Again, I'm not sure from your choice of words what you mean.

Just that to teach something, that persons needs to really _know_ it themself first, and know it quite well if they wish to teach it. (For example, since you seem to have a bit more experience with karate, perhaps I can use that as an example -- would you encourage someone to get instruction in how to punch or kick or box from someone who read a book about it once or watched a video?)

If you're interested in teaching skills from aikido or in encouraging someone to teach aikido, the first key would be to find a really good local aikido instructor.

If on further reflection what you are interested in is more something along the lines of non-physical conflict resolution skills, again, look around and see who's already around who knows it well.

Just IMHO as a student.
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Old 04-14-2009, 11:17 AM   #28
Garth Jones
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Quote:
Thomas Donelson wrote: View Post
Is ther a reason that Karate instructors cannot incorporate some teaching of Aikdo Energy flow for venting about problems?.

..
No reason at all, except for the fact that they may never have studied aikido and do not have the experience to teach it. I've been training in aikido for more than 20 years now and I can't say very much at all about karate (or kung fu, or tae kwon do, or savate, etc.) having never studied them.

What I can say is that I do not think that wrist locks isolated from other training are going to provide the solution you want for these bullied kids. Even for me now it happens from time to time that I fail to get a joint lock because I'm not quite in the right place or my partner is just so stiff that I can't get the lock on. With good movement and timing I can still throw them easily by taking their balance. You can have the best wrist lock in the world, but if you can't get to the right place to apply it, it doesn't mean a hill of beans.

Further, I think you should be very careful about what you show people, given your level of experience teaching this stuff. Are you covered by liability insurance? What might happen if a kid either applies a lock way too forcefully and injures somebody or, more likely, gets beat up after trying a lock that fails?

If you look around, you might well be able to find an aikido dojo that would teach a class for these kids, or an instructor would could come to the school. That would provide the kids with regular, ongoing training, which would give them much better skills.

Food for thought.....
Garth
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:12 PM   #29
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

There are a few instructors that can apply and teach wrist locks (Nikkyos and Sankyos) correctly. When I show Sankyos and nikkyos in class, I make sure I tell the students that when uke taps, it's over immediately. If I see uke tapping and nage NOT stopping, nage sits out the rest of the class, period. After class I will talk with the nage and there will be no misunderstanding!! Nikkyos and sankyos you do not mess with. Fortunately, I have never had the above situation happen in my class.
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Old 04-14-2009, 03:05 PM   #30
Michael Hackett
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Sure some karate sensei can teach "Aikido Energy Flow" and some can't. If you mean "ki" as "Aikido Energy Flow", it won't be a foreign concept to many karate instructors, but most will have little experience in what you keep referring to as "aikido dancing". Much like a science teacher isn't qualified to teach english, you'll find similar limitations in the martial arts world.

At this stage, probably the best course of action for you is to take Kevin Leavitt up on his incredibly kind offer to meet with you. On a one-to-one basis, he can get a better understanding of what you are trying to accomplish and perhaps give you some very wise advice as to how to proceed to reach your goal.

Michael
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Old 04-14-2009, 05:33 PM   #31
Spinmaster
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Several good points have already been brought up, pointing out problems with this project. Here's my 2 cents:

1. You say that you want to teach them wristlocks so that they don't have to resort to striking - aren't you forgetting that atemi is an important part of aikido? You may have heard the saying "strike with every technique". The strike is a vital part of the technique, necessary to unbalance the opponent enough that the lock/throw/whatever may be applied. Do you really think the bully/whoever is just going to stand there and let you put him in a wristlock? I think it's more likely that he'd be hitting you.

2. What is going to be more of a problem, getting a black eye from getting punched, or a broken wrist?

3. The way you call it a "dance" makes me very cautious. Real fighting is NOT dancing, and attempting to "dance" your way to victory could lead to getting yourself hurt.
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Old 04-15-2009, 12:41 AM   #32
Thomas Donelson
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Quote:
Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
There are a few instructors that can apply and teach wrist locks (Nikkyos and Sankyos) correctly. When I show Sankyos and nikkyos in class, I make sure I tell the students that when uke taps, it's over immediately. If I see uke tapping and nage NOT stopping, nage sits out the rest of the class, period. After class I will talk with the nage and there will be no misunderstanding!! Nikkyos and sankyos you do not mess with. Fortunately, I have never had the above situation happen in my class.
This is an important difference with some Karate training. The two taps and a clean break are not taught in some Karate training. So it would be wise to introduce this Aikido concept, of two taps and break, to a Karate Instructor, as part of the preparation of students for wrist lock training.

..
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Old 04-15-2009, 01:21 AM   #33
Thomas Donelson
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Thomas Donelson is quoted: "The part of the philosphy of Aikido that is intended to foster respect and dispute resolution, can be illustrated with an Aikido wrist lock dance."

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I'm actually not sure what you mean, because I've never heard of a 'wrist lock dance' so I'm not positive what you're trying to say or what image you have in your mind.

Again, I'm not sure from your choice of words what you mean.

.
By wrist-lock dance, I mean the positioning of footwork by the person trained in writst-locks, as a potential victim, to be in a confrontation with another individual, a potential attacker.

The wrist-lock trained victim would be positioning himself so that if the attacker did attempt to strike the victim, that the victim would be envisoning a sequence of stepping aside, blocking the fist and arm of the attacker, and then forming a wrist lock, on the attacker, so that further steps can be made to position the victim such that the attacker would have difficulty in striking the victim, with his free hand.

In some Aikido training, it is taught that if an attacker punches in, to grasp the arm, and create moves to get the attacker off balance, and place the attacker on the mat.

The wrist lock dance would be a substitute for placing the attacker on the mat. The wrist-lock would be maintained by the victim changing footwork positioning, and only applying enough force at the wrist, to prevent the attacker from breaking loose, or from striking with the other hand.

When it seems the attacker has been defused, the victim may release the attacker from the wrist-lock, and prepare for envisioning another step aside, block and wrist-lock, if the attacker attempts to hit the victim again.

The attacker's energy is discharged as questions are asked by the victim, "Why are you threatening me?" or "Why are you trying to make me afraid you are going to hit me?" "What are you angry about?" or "Why are you trying to push me?" or "I amd becoming frightened that you are going to hit me!." or "you are making me frightened you arfe going to hit me." If the attacker does punch in, and the victim is able to step aside, and deflect the blow away from his face and body, this usually has the effect of defusing the attacker's intensity, having expended the energy to attempt to hit the victim. Further energy is depleted from the attacker, if a wrist lock can be applied, and the attacker spends further energy trying to get into a position to punch in again.

So the wrist-lock dance is the victim attempting to postion himself to avoid being punched, and to maintain the wrist lock, with minimal pressure. The victim is responding to the attacker's further attempting to position himself, to punch in again.

The victim may decide that maintaining the wrist lock is causing too much pressure on the attacker's wrist, and release the wrist-lock, and begin positioning himself for another punch in, by the attacker.

..

Last edited by Thomas Donelson : 04-15-2009 at 01:31 AM.
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Old 04-15-2009, 01:30 AM   #34
Thomas Donelson
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I am another voice against wrist locks on kids - in kids aikido classes it is what we DON'T do because of the growth plates and other issues. Teaching kids to move off the line, evade, block a punch, yell NO, fall without getting hurt, as well as the discipline of lining up, bowing, etc is all much more valuable then any locks or techniques.
Because Wrist Locks are a tool that can be used with too much force and cause injury, means that teaching wrist-locks carries with it the idea that it is good to take extra care in teaching kids the dangers of too sudden, or too forceful wrist locks.

It is possible that I will conclude that it is not possible to responsibly teach sub-teens wrist locks. For now, I am looking for ways to increase responsibility in teaching, and looking for specific problems with teaching wrist-locks.

..
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:26 AM   #35
Michael Douglas
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Quote:
Thomas Donelson wrote: View Post
...In some Aikido training, it is taught that if an attacker punches in, to grasp the arm, and create moves to get the attacker off balance, and place the attacker on the mat.

The wrist lock dance would be a substitute for placing the attacker on the mat. The wrist-lock would be maintained by the victim changing footwork positioning, and only applying enough force at the wrist, to prevent the attacker from breaking loose, or from striking with the other hand.

When it seems the attacker has been defused, the victim may release the attacker from the wrist-lock, and prepare for envisioning another step aside, block and wrist-lock, if the attacker attempts to hit the victim again.
.
Thomas you seem kinda ... gullible.
What you have described is a situation which will almost never exist.

You yourself should never teach wristlocks (in my opinion) since you display less than zero knowledge of their realistic application. (Adult or child)
If I sound harsh that's because to mollycoddle you could (is likely to) get your 'students' into broken nose territory. I'd rather that didn't happen.
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Old 04-15-2009, 11:28 AM   #36
Garth Jones
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

As I said earlier, trying to grab the arm or wrist of a punch is a normal beginner mistake. If it is taught that way somewhere, it is poorly done.

There are many kinds of punches and they require different solutions. A wildly thrown roundhouse might result in a wrist lock, IF the attacker over commits and IF the defender moves right. Trying to do a wrist lock on a boxing jab will fail without a ton of practice. I have seen Saotome Sensei blend elegantly with blindingly fast punches thrown by a 6th dan katate practioner - he didn't bother with joint locks, though, he just drilled his uke into the mat. The punching arm and wrist, especially in a real fight, is likely to be very stiff - turning it for a wrist lock may not be possible. Of course, there are many other techniques that will work just fine. Focusing on wrist locks as a total self defense solution misses 99% of the power of aikido (and the martial arts in general).

Beginners are going to be more successful using joint locks as counters to grab attacks. Even then, steady practice is required.

To me, self defense begins with the right attitude and awareness of my surroundings. I think it's more important to diffuse the situation and give ground rather than 'stand and fight.' Of course, it's possible to be backed into a corner or have to help somebody else - that may force a physical confrontation faster. Even then, that's the last choice - what starts as a fist fight may end up with a knife or firearm involved, and then everybody has a very bad day.

And it's one thing to have a conversation with your over excited drunk friend once you've pinned him on the floor and another with some punk who is trying to beat you up. In the second case, he's staying on the floor until I call 911 and the cops come and arrest him for assaulting me.

Anyway, I will again suggest that you look for good aikido instructors and do some reading on the topic of unarmed self defense.

Last edited by Garth Jones : 04-15-2009 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 04-15-2009, 11:33 AM   #37
Janet Rosen
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Frankly the idea of "dealing with" a bully by putting on halfassed wrist locks and releasing them and putting them on again as needed strikes me as one of the at best misguided and at worst asinine things I can think of.

One should either de-escalate verbally, get the heck away, or take the person down. What is posited here is "neither fish nor fowl" and simply leaves one engaged in a lose-lose situation that I believe will escalate things.

Janet Rosen
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Old 04-15-2009, 07:13 PM   #38
Thomas Donelson
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Frankly the idea of "dealing with" a bully by putting on halfassed wrist locks and releasing them and putting them on again as needed strikes me as one of the at best misguided and at worst asinine things I can think of.

One should either de-escalate verbally, get the heck away, or take the person down. What is posited here is "neither fish nor fowl" and simply leaves one engaged in a lose-lose situation that I believe will escalate things.
I have found it helpful to have a moderate path to utilize, in the Wrist-Lock dance. Situations like Bar fights, disagreements with co-workers, people with whom I expect to have future relations.

I prefer to stand my ground when people are drunk, agitated or otherwise threatening me. Visualizing using the wrist locks I know, gives me confidence to continue to face people who are speaking to me in a threatening manner. I have confidence that I can protect myself, protect them, and preserve their dignity, by allowing them to remain standing, while they try to hit me.

I am looking forward to learning more wrist locks, and learning the techniques to overcome deliberate resistance.

I visualize situations for sub-teens, where there is a future realtionship with threatening indivdiduals.

It is considered the crime of assault to put someone in fear of being hit or harmed in some way. But calling the police, or filing charges in court, seems a little over the top. I recall the New Testament mentions working out problems between each other, rather than involving the courts. Respect is a first element of a basis for negotiation.

..
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Old 04-15-2009, 07:44 PM   #39
Janet Rosen
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

If I can't succesfully de-escalate or disengage - which over the decades, in most IRL situations, I've been succesful at - then that means the person is an active threat, and regardless of my "ongoing relationship" with the person I'm not going to stand there and dance. YMMV.

Janet Rosen
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Old 04-15-2009, 08:01 PM   #40
eyrie
 
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Thomas,

There are some very good resources out there, on how to deal with schoolyard/playground bullying. I would strongly suggest and encourage you to do some research in this area.

Bullying is simply a form of violence - verbal, psychological as well as physical. In that respect, it is no different to the material covered in most generalized self-defence strategies; i.e the general approach is the same - be aware and avoid, verbally de-escalate or diffuse the situation, walk/run away, call for help, tell an adult/teacher etc. Physical self-defence responses should only be the action of last resort, and one should always be aware of the legal/regulatory consequences of such a course of action.

If you have to engage, in order to disengage from the situation, gross, generalized movements are favourable to wrist locks. Wrist locks are generally low percentage techniques and difficult to apply without a modicum of training. OTOH, gross, generalized movements do not necessarily imply punch/kick either.

Aikido encompasses far more generally applicable principles that can help empower an individual to "rise above it". Limiting it to mere technical responses narrows one's options and is, IMO, shortsighted.

Ignatius
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Old 04-15-2009, 11:29 PM   #41
Michael Hackett
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Thomas,

You've gotten some really good advice from some pretty experienced people. Feel free to ignore it. Enjoy, you might be on to something. Dance, Forrest, Dance!

Michael
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Old 04-16-2009, 03:45 AM   #42
AnniN
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Hmmm... IMHO I think the matter is very simple, if you aren't a qualified instructor you shouldn't teach kids stuff that could cause injury.
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Old 04-16-2009, 06:50 PM   #43
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Quote:
Thomas Donelson wrote: View Post
I prefer to stand my ground when people are drunk, agitated or otherwise threatening me.
Would you be willing to elaborating on this?

Quote:
Visualizing using the wrist locks I know, gives me confidence to continue to face people who are speaking to me in a threatening manner.
Confidence is good. I know when I'm confident I don't hesitate as much and I generally look less like an easy target...so it both frees me to act decisively as well as possibly disuading the would-be attacker.

Quote:
I visualize situations for sub-teens, where there is a future realtionship with threatening indivdiduals.
Something I can appreciate since the first words one of my best friends uttered to me was, "touch my shoes and I'll kick your ass," (his shoes were on my seat).

Quote:
Respect is a first element of a basis for negotiation.
Well amen to that! In my opinion, this is an under-appreciated fact of social dynamics.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:55 PM   #44
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Thomas,

Since you are thinking about teaching the use of wrist locks in situations where there will be obvious resistance to children whose growth plates can be severely damaged by overly-applied wrist locks, I have to ask:

Have you ever applied a wrist lock successfully against a seriously resisting opponent? In a class or in real life? Were you able to control it so that the attacker stayed standing without injury while still being able to fight back or yank his hand away?

Do you have any understanding of how much skill and control it takes to apply wrist locks under resistance and not shatter the wrist and other joints? If you do, please give an example of how this is done.

How realistic is it that pre-teens who are at a stage where they are still learning basic coordination skills, will be able to execute successful wrist locks without injuring their attacker or taking him/her to the ground?

I'm sorry, but my impression from your posts so far indicate that what you do not know may make you a very dangerous person to your potential students.

Please tell me if I am wrong.

Please think deeply about what you plan to do.

LC

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Old 04-17-2009, 08:27 AM   #45
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

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Thomas Donelson wrote: View Post
I have confidence that I can protect myself, protect them, and preserve their dignity, by allowing them to remain standing, while they try to hit me.

..
With respect, you say you have confidence, but what about actual experience? Have you been in an actual situation where things got physical and you had the guy standing in a wrist lock as he tried to hit you? I'm not saying that you haven't, just wondering because you didn't mention it.

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Old 04-17-2009, 08:39 AM   #46
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Quote:
Thomas Donelson wrote: View Post
Thomas Donelson is quoted:

By wrist-lock dance, I mean the positioning of footwork by the person trained in writst-locks, as a potential victim, to be in a confrontation with another individual, a potential attacker.

The wrist-lock trained victim would be positioning himself so that if the attacker did attempt to strike the victim, that the victim would be envisoning a sequence of stepping aside, blocking the fist and arm of the attacker, and then forming a wrist lock, on the attacker, so that further steps can be made to position the victim such that the attacker would have difficulty in striking the victim, with his free hand.
Okay this one I can visualize - but...

Quote:
Thomas Donelson wrote: View Post
In some Aikido training, it is taught that if an attacker punches in, to grasp the arm, and create moves to get the attacker off balance, and place the attacker on the mat.
...THIS? Are you talking about catching a punch?

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Old 04-17-2009, 08:40 AM   #47
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

The question I have, since you seem determined to take this path, is this. Are you prepared to face the legal ramifications if your students or their victims get hurt doing something that you taught them despite being unqualified?

"Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men" - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Old 04-17-2009, 08:47 AM   #48
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

And one more thing: you talk about "envisioning a sequence..." when the bully attempts to strike. That to me sounds too slow. While the kid is busy thinking, "Oh he's going to punch me. Okay, envision the sequence. Step 1: step aside. Step 2: Block. Step - OW!!!" the bully hits him. Or am I taking your words too literally?

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Old 04-25-2009, 11:35 AM   #49
Thomas Donelson
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Teaching about Pain/Injury of a wrist lock:

Sit at a table, on a chair. Put your right elbow on the table. Put your right forearm straight up, toward the sky.

turn teh palm of your right hand, facing left. Now bend your hand to make the head of a duck. Move your thumb, up and down, and say "Quack Quack." Imagine that your hand is being shown as a shadow on a screen, by a bright light.

Your wrist is bent 90 degrees, and this is sometimes called a Gooseneck, by Roy Dean.

With your right hand in a Gooseneck, and your elbow firmly on the table, move your left arm up, to place your left palm on top of the knuckles of your right hand. Press down gently with your left hand, and notice that you can feel pain, and that it hurts. This is to show you that you can injure your partner when you use a wrist lock.


TRAINING THE RELEASE, BREAK AND STEP APART

The object of any wrist-lock prectice exercise is is to create some minimal pain in your partner, but not severe pain, or injury. It is important that you look at your partner for signs of pain, or excessive pressure.

Once you feel that pain and position indicate yor paertner is in need of release, you can shout, "Break, Release, Break" and you and your partner should go apart, maybe even b ow to each other, to show respect for the BREAK.

Your partner should be trained to communicate that pain and position have been acheived, and that release of the wrtist hold is being requested. Some in Aikdo have been trained to slap the mat once. to signal a request for a release and break, Roy Dean DVD's. Some in Aikido suggest slapping the mat twice, is a more certain process to institute a release and break.

There is a natural tendency to retaliate if someone has caused you pain. It is important for both partners to resist a cycle of retaliation, and to understand that it is the partner's responsiblity to slap the mat, or the thigh of his leg, to make a Slapping Sound. The person in the Wrist Lock can also yell, "Hurts, Break! Hurts, Break!"

The first practice sessions with wrist-locks should be about breaking, and slapping to signal pain. Variations in applying the Gooseneck wrist lock can take second place, until the Break routine is established as a pattern.

..

Last edited by Thomas Donelson : 04-25-2009 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 04-26-2009, 04:20 AM   #50
Amir Krause
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Dear Thomas

The way you wrote your messages, make me think you are so miss-guided I can not explain.

Have you ever tried any wrist lock on anyone?
You are posting in an Aikido Forum, may I suggest you to find some Aikido dojo and simply try a couple of lessons.

Without realistic experience, all you have is simplified ideas which will NEVER work.

Oh, and I hate to break the illusion, but reading your post on how to perform the wrist-lock "you know", you do NOT yet have any slight idea on how to really perform any wrist lock on any other person.

The number of miss-guided, WRONG ideas I (and many others, much more polite and tolerant then me) read in your posts is staggering. Your messages indicate you have no knowledge in this subject. Your teaching anything of this type to children is on the verge of a crime.

Martial Arts are not a couple of techniques, this is true for Aikido, Karate, Judo, Jujutsu and Kung-Gu. Each M.A. contains lots of synergism elements, the techniques are just the most spectacular and easiest to see aspect, not the most important one.

To develop a way for children to face Bullies sounds very nice. But life is far from simple. Serious M.A. practitioners, as many here, would mock any person who tries to invent his own M.A. for adults, unless he had lots of years of practice preferably in more then a single M.A. It is my belief, that the qualifications of a person inventing a solution for children should only be higher!

Reading your posts, I am not sure if you are a teenager, sure he has a solution for his problems, and refusing to listen\read the opinions of his elder. Or a real teacher, who is sure he found the light and all those people simply have no idea. In either case, you should start by stepping on some dojo mat and feeling the true problems and limitations of locks.

I apologize if this post seems blunt and aggressive to you. But, someone here should have put you in place, and open your eyes to reality before you cause any damage. I guess it had to be an Israeli who has the "Huzpa" to write things this bluntly.

Amir
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