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Old 04-09-2009, 09:15 AM   #1
Ketsan
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YouTube: Aikido v MMA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLqovX4G8Z0

The Aikidoka only has one hand!
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:30 AM   #2
Ketsan
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwt9_G6VcME

Part two, apparently it went into an over time round.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:49 PM   #3
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

Huh, weird. I guess in "One-arm Aikido" they don't teach tenkan or any other manner of circular movement; they focus more on the "judo chop/face slap" and leg sweeps. Also, theirs seems to be more of a "stay on the line" approach, a kind of "go straight at 'em" style. Interesting.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:54 PM   #4
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

I'm not seeing much MMA or really for that matter much aikido. What I saw was two people from different martial arts having a slap fight with no no punches, halfway respectable kicks, or decent ground work of any kind.

My advice would be when fighting a one handed man with his hands at his waist is to actually punch him in the face. Something the other guy did not try once.

Similarly, on the ground with a one armed man it would be trivial to sweep him over that missing arm, he has no post or position to prevent this. You don't even need mma training for that, just physics.

I didn't make it halfway though the second video, so maybe it gets better.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:46 PM   #5
Stephen Kotev
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

Do you know where this came from and what were the rules? It's not really MMA rules. No gloves, no ropes or cage, no real closed fist strikes. Seems kinda strange. The 'mma guy' seemed almost timid at times. His knee strikes around 2:53 seem almost like taps. The "Aikido' guy did a lot of trips and some chokes and arm bars. Last time I checked that was not part of the standard curriculum (Yes, I know your school does it; but you won't find most of that stuff at Hombu Dojo.)

It's almost like old Pancrase without the boots.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:49 PM   #6
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

2nd video had a few throws and an arm bar. Traditional MMA style stuff. The Aikido guy looked stiff and the chopping really didn't look like it was doing too much, you could see he was trying for a takedown to get into some hold as the usual UFC ground-n-pound is done.

I would've loved to see a MT vs. Aikido that would be interesting
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Old 04-09-2009, 04:31 PM   #7
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

Quote:
Stephen Kotev wrote: View Post
Do you know where this came from and what were the rules? It's not really MMA rules. No gloves, no ropes or cage, no real closed fist strikes. Seems kinda strange. The 'mma guy' seemed almost timid at times. His knee strikes around 2:53 seem almost like taps. The "Aikido' guy did a lot of trips and some chokes and arm bars. Last time I checked that was not part of the standard curriculum (Yes, I know your school does it; but you won't find most of that stuff at Hombu Dojo.)

It's almost like old Pancrase without the boots.
I stumbled across it this morning so I don't know anything outside of what it says on the vid.
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Old 04-09-2009, 04:48 PM   #8
Ketsan
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

Quote:
Stephen Kotev wrote: View Post
Do you know where this came from and what were the rules? It's not really MMA rules. No gloves, no ropes or cage, no real closed fist strikes. Seems kinda strange. The 'mma guy' seemed almost timid at times. His knee strikes around 2:53 seem almost like taps. The "Aikido' guy did a lot of trips and some chokes and arm bars. Last time I checked that was not part of the standard curriculum (Yes, I know your school does it; but you won't find most of that stuff at Hombu Dojo.)

It's almost like old Pancrase without the boots.
Knee strikes are normally done while stationary on a stationary target, I should imagine it's quite hard to walk and knee at the same time. In fact to my way of thinking the MMA guy, if he is, struggles with the fact that the Aikidoka refuses to stand still and be hit.
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Old 04-09-2009, 04:49 PM   #9
Ketsan
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

Neither of them are wearing gloves, could explain the lack of punching, a lot of the slaps look like open handed jabs/crosses etc to me. Very linier slapping anyway! Either way the Aikidoka doesn't stand around to get hit! Although there are a couple of times when the Aikidoka gets a hand in the face and is pushed back.

There does appear to be some attempt at newaza but the Aikidoka seems to be able to handle it, is able to lock it down and escape and even manages (?) an arm bar.
Like the first time he ends up in his opponents guard at about 56 seconds and then just picks the guy up and bashes him off the mat. I've seen Aikidoka do this to Judoka so many times.

Or at 2:13 where it looks like the guy tries to shoot but the Aikidoka just shuffles back and absorbs it, almost sprawls infact. Eventually the Aikidoka goes down, but he counters with ukemi stabilises himself, rolls into kamae and stands up.
Or 0:22 in the second video where the Aikidoka has his leg trapped in half guard (?) but ignores it and just carries on trying to choke the guy out.

I think this may be demonstrating what I've been saying for a while, you're only ever trained to deal with the style of resistance taught by your art. Perhaps the reason there's no real ground work is that the Aikidoka isn't co-operating?

I dunno, just my way of looking at things.
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Old 04-09-2009, 06:57 PM   #10
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

This is not an Aikidoka, for sooooo many reasons.

"Do, or do not. There is no 'try'."
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Old 04-09-2009, 07:56 PM   #11
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

People can say what they want, but I give the one hand guy credit. At least he tried, no matter what the expectation of those watching the video or the so called preciseness of the application. To me it's more encouraging than a lot of videos of Aikdio. Really, I'm tired of demonstrations of the same old thing. This is something we don't see often enough. Perhaps we can get the higher level Aikidoka to engage more in friendly challenges.
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:39 PM   #12
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

the one hand guy in hakama did respectable I think. Not much skill really from either fighter, but at least the guy in the hakama did decent for what he did with one hand.

Just a thought. the guy wears a hakama and the other guy street clothes and someone labels it "Aikidoka vs MMA Guy" and that makes it so?

didn't see much skill really from either figther actually, but it was fun to watch!

Steve, nice footage of Jason Delucia and Bas Rutten. Jason used to post some on here a few years back as "Aikidog" FWIW!

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Old 04-09-2009, 10:18 PM   #13
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Just a thought. the guy wears a hakama and the other guy street clothes and someone labels it "Aikidoka vs MMA Guy" and that makes it so?
Typical youtubers. Someone mislabels a video and it's taken as gospel.

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If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 04-10-2009, 06:43 PM   #14
Ketsan
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

Found the guy in an Aikido demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKHvM...e=channel_page
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Old 04-10-2009, 07:39 PM   #15
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

Well one thing is proven based on the video. The guy seems like a legitimate Aikidoka. Interesting enough when confronted with real resistance, he applied techniques differently. Like my sensei always states, “there is the real world for Aikido and the demonstration world of Aikdio. They are not one in the same. Even though many people here were not impressed with the level of his techniques, it proves one thing, static flow does not work against real resistance. Imagine the so called MMA guy with a high level of martial competency. Many Aikidoka are use to looking a static demonstrations and nothing else.

Thanks for the video.
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Old 04-19-2009, 04:17 PM   #16
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

Check out 0:15-0:33 and practise the ukemi

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Old 04-19-2009, 05:34 PM   #17
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

We need to see more videos like this. Again, it's encouraging to me. Anybody can do a demonstration, but this takes some courage.
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Old 04-20-2009, 05:44 AM   #18
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

Quote:
Devin Hammer wrote: View Post
This is not an Aikidoka, for sooooo many reasons.
By my reconing, it blumming well is, if anything his atemi were a bit on the soft side but i take it the rules were soft contact.

here their atemi training
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwt9_G6VcME

phil

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In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 04-20-2009, 08:34 AM   #19
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

Bas Rutten (Professional MMA guy) has this to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k_uu...eature=related

I don't agree with him completely, because he may have forgotten about using atemi to setup a pin. Interesting to hear what he has to say. Sounds like he at least has some respect for Aikido (MMA guy that is).
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Old 04-20-2009, 09:34 AM   #20
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

Quote:
Kevin Karr wrote: View Post
Huh, weird. I guess in "One-arm Aikido" they don't teach tenkan or any other manner of circular movement; they focus more on the "judo chop/face slap" and leg sweeps. Also, theirs seems to be more of a "stay on the line" approach, a kind of "go straight at 'em" style. Interesting.
My thoughts exactly.

-morgan

"When you bow deeply to the universe, it bows back; when you call out the name of God, it echoes inside you." - O' sensei
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Old 04-20-2009, 09:35 AM   #21
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

Salim, Bas did caveat it by saying that it might work on close distance.

I would say the exact same thing being an aikido guy. It is not about whether our methodology of training is a good one or a bad one (it is a good one for what it is designed to do).

However, when you are going toe to toe with a guy trading blows in a ring there are some real challenges that are presented that most of us in aikido don't study to defeat or to manage.

I think that is all he is really saying. It would require us to make some significant changes in our training methods.

I disagree with the whole moving off the side and catching a punch thing. I don't think this is what aikido is about, mine is not about that for sure!

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Old 04-20-2009, 10:10 AM   #22
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Salim, Bas did caveat it by saying that it might work on close distance.

I would say the exact same thing being an aikido guy. It is not about whether our methodology of training is a good one or a bad one (it is a good one for what it is designed to do).

However, when you are going toe to toe with a guy trading blows in a ring there are some real challenges that are presented that most of us in aikido don't study to defeat or to manage.

I think that is all he is really saying. It would require us to make some significant changes in our training methods.

I disagree with the whole moving off the side and catching a punch thing. I don't think this is what aikido is about, mine is not about that for sure!
Yeah, I heard him say that it could work at a close distance. One thing that translates inside the ring or outside the ring is real resistance. It's all the same when confronted with a confrontation of any sort. I think the fundamental aspect of training is what is being question here. What training methods prepare you for a truly resisting opponent, inside or outside the ring?

I think the one handed Aikidoka guy, is measuring his Aikido and answering some of those questions by putting it to practice. That's the difference between the demonstration Aikidoka and the Aikidoka who test his skills with live training, real resistance against an opponent.
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:33 AM   #23
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

Quote:
Morgan Wible wrote: View Post

Kevin Karr wrote:
Huh, weird. I guess in "One-arm Aikido" they don't teach tenkan or any other manner of circular movement; they focus more on the "judo chop/face slap" and leg sweeps. Also, theirs seems to be more of a "stay on the line" approach, a kind of "go straight at 'em" style. Interesting.

My thoughts exactly.

-morgan
I really believe it is a bit harsh. I am not sure I would do that well without an arm.

First I can not think of any aiki takedown/pin or throw that do not use both hands and would work against even a remotely uninspired 1v1 fighter.
As well I would that you can only work with what you are given.

Even though the opponent has a little bit of a phantom guard, his strikes are delivered in a stable position and are not over committed.

So that is tenkan pretty much out of the picture.

Since the guy had only one arm, it will be quite unsafe for him to gain access to the outside via tenchin back or with an irimi that would be tenchin but forward.

Apart from what he did, I can see that much option for him. I though he did manage the clinch very well as he does need is opponent to garb him to replace the hand that he is missing. He gets the guy on the ground a few times with that.

I would agree with don the opponent was not especially savvy but the aikido guy did manage the distance, the pace at which the fight happens to his advantage.
phil

Last edited by philippe willaume : 04-20-2009 at 10:36 AM.

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Old 04-20-2009, 12:30 PM   #24
Ketsan
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
I really believe it is a bit harsh. I am not sure I would do that well without an arm.

First I can not think of any aiki takedown/pin or throw that do not use both hands and would work against even a remotely uninspired 1v1 fighter.
As well I would that you can only work with what you are given.

Even though the opponent has a little bit of a phantom guard, his strikes are delivered in a stable position and are not over committed.

So that is tenkan pretty much out of the picture.

Since the guy had only one arm, it will be quite unsafe for him to gain access to the outside via tenchin back or with an irimi that would be tenchin but forward.

Apart from what he did, I can see that much option for him. I though he did manage the clinch very well as he does need is opponent to garb him to replace the hand that he is missing. He gets the guy on the ground a few times with that.

I would agree with don the opponent was not especially savvy but the aikido guy did manage the distance, the pace at which the fight happens to his advantage.
phil
Amen. Also in some places tenkan is basics. Up until third kyuish you make your movements bigger and bigger and then from 2nd kyu you work on making them smaller and smaller until around about shodan/nidan you can do things on the spot.

If the guy comes from a school that thinks along those lines then it could be that far from a lack of tenkan demonstrating a lack of skill a lack of tenkan could demonstrate quite high levels of skill.
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Old 04-20-2009, 02:50 PM   #25
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Re: YouTube: Aikido v MMA

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Yeah, I heard him say that it could work at a close distance. One thing that translates inside the ring or outside the ring is real resistance. It's all the same when confronted with a confrontation of any sort. I think the fundamental aspect of training is what is being question here. What training methods prepare you for a truly resisting opponent, inside or outside the ring?

I think the one handed Aikidoka guy, is measuring his Aikido and answering some of those questions by putting it to practice. That's the difference between the demonstration Aikidoka and the Aikidoka who test his skills with live training, real resistance against an opponent.
I think you have to have a multifaceted (layered/matrixed) approach to training. It includes much of the training that we typically do in aikido and other martial arts. Most folks (myself included and I train alot) simply don't have enough time or need to train that way.

I think some good things probably come out of sparring like those guys are in the video for sure. At the same time, there are many constraints and the environment is still artificial as you have two guys bouncing around the ring fighting a battle of attrition over a period of time.

As long as you are aware what those constraints and limitations are and how they impact your training, then there is no issue...it is all good training.

It is when you don't understand them and convince or extrapolate out that you can do somethings that you probably certainly can't that you have issues.

I'd say a guy like Bas Rutten is probably a pretty good judge of what works and what doesn't than the average dojo warrior!

Good discussion Salim!

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