Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-03-2009, 10:30 AM   #76
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
<snipped the actual content>
by Karl Koskuba
http://www.yiquan.org.uk/art-pom1.html
Thanks, David.
I don't know if I believe the mobiliser/stabiliser thing, but as a practical explanation it makes some sense.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 09:57 PM   #77
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,499
United_States
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
"What I have been describing is how to gain control over muscles that we are not even aware of. Clearly, any movement using stabilisers must seem powered by something else than muscles. In Chinese culture, qi is a cause of movement so it is not surprising that the kind of movement I've been describing would be attributed to qi. We have seen how this ‘qi' is trained by the mind (awareness) and activated by the mind. Sometimes ‘bone breathing' or ‘bone squeezing' methods are used to ‘congeal qi into bones'. This is just another way of gaining awareness of the deep muscular structures. Awareness of the stabilisers is felt like a tightness round the bones. Due to the structure of slow-twitch fibres, deliberate use of stabilisers produces more heat than is usual. This can be felt and it is different from a similar, but smaller, effect in the skin brought about by relaxation. Both of these effects, but especially the heat produced deeper in the body, are often taken as a sign of increased ‘qi' flow."
All very good. The main problem is that the control sought must necessarily be done by indirect means to learn what alters them.

What does alter them? A simply demonstrated one is repetitive stress. If you have had your hands that won't easily unclench after a good quarter hour or so of heavy raking, or after handling a rotary hammer or after pushing a particularly rough running lawn mower, you know exactly what I mean. [[@ Joep -- Those are the "stabilizers" David is talking about ( there are more complicated names, but that is the right functional description.]] Similarly, if you have had to shift awkward loads (like say bags of cement), the first couple seem very ungainly, but after two or three you have immensely better stability and can project them further, and you didn't consciously DO anything differently. Same action is occurring but in the larger and more central postural elements.

Now in traditional Aiki training we have interesting exercises in this light: furitama "spirit shaking", tekubi-furi "wrist shaking," and funetori "boat rowing" The first two are cognate to the vibrating machinery and the latter to tossing cement. We also beat on our bodies from thighs to finger tips to feel the impulses running through out the body. Done correctly, in all of them you sense resonance in the body and its various scales of movement, moving larger components with a small resonant rhythm, and conversely driving small components with a larger cycling mass.

All of these are directed at teaching the immensely quick spinal reflexes and the cerebellum and its more complex reflexes to modulate these responses in more "clever monkey" ways -- but importantly, in BOTH provoking AND in suppressing that response in variations and at need. An important caveat is that these tissues are hormonally provoked as much or more than they are by the sympathetic nervous system (which itself provokes the adrenal system if sufficiently activated. But these tissues are not responsive to adrenal homromones -- they are responsive to oxytocin (the "love" hormone) -- which suggests a strong empirical support for a certain attitudinal approach to training.

In provoking that response you are modulating the damping function of the structure to absorb and dissipate cyclic loads, and in suppressing it you are opening the body to transmit, more transparently, the same type of cyclic energy transiting the body. "Clear power" Sagawa called it, appropriately enough.

In dynamic form, angular momentum can transmit and concentrate for delivery tremendous kinetic loads in the human body. In static form the same "shape" and elements are adopted but in a "snapshot" as though the motion was caught in a video frame that provokes the stabilizing action but progressively to dampen (like pure alcohol suddenly and progressively turning to stiff molasses) the applied momentum -- ultimately using the summmed dampening potential of every connection in the whole structure to "eat up" the load. Otherwise "odd" aspects of aikido training like the tegatana arm form and the directly related forms and principles of asagao are fully comprehensible when you understand this perspective.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 06-03-2009 at 10:07 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 10:37 PM   #78
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
The more explanations you hear sooner or later you will find one that you understand better than the rest. This one helps me.
I highlighted two sections in bold print.
David, let me make a suggestion: It's easy to overcomplicate things. I remember when Karel started on the mobilisers and stabilisers thing, late in the Neijia List days. It's a grand theory, but he'd have been better off thinking a bit more about making gravity his friend. So would you. "Making gravity your friend" is the modern, "let's-don't-talk-about-ki" way of describing the force manipulations, etc., that have been discussed, diagrammed, etc., already.

The "fascia" stuff is part of all that, but not in the way Karel's unique theory describes. Here's the old traditional way of describing the interrelationship, but if you don't know what it means it may not be very helpful:

Quote:
Membrane

(Extracted from the "Yi Jin Jing")

A man's body consists of the entrails, spirit, and virility internally; and
of the arms, legs, tendons, bones, and flesh externally. For example,
tendons and bones are outside the entrails, flesh is outside the tendons and
bones. Blood vessels are inside the flesh. But Qi is the dominant factor
for one's physical movement. Thus the secret for cultivating one's physical
and mental capabilities is to improve one's Qi and to invigorate one's blood
circulation. One's spirit and virility are invisible or untouchable, but
one's tendons, bones, and flesh are substantial. To cultivate internal
spirit and virility, one must start doing the practice of the substantial
parts of his body first. Therefore, one should not practice the invisible
and untouchable spirit and virility only or just practice the tendons,
bones, and flesh. The practice of one's body must go along with the
practice of one's spirit and virility. Because of this, the practice of
internal work should be done in thie sequence: Qi, membrane, tendon.

While the practice of the tendon is easy, the practice of the membrane is
difficult, and the practice of Qi is more difficult. Students must start
practicing from Qi first in order to keep Qi moving everywhere within their
bodies. The membrane will stretch automatically at the place where Qi
reaches and be as strong as tendons. If one practices tendons without doing
the practice of the membrane, the membrane will be weak. If he practices
membrane without doing the practice of Qi, his membrane and tendons will not
stretch. If he practices Qi without doing the practice of the tendon and
membrane, the Qi will not circulate smoothly within his body and his tendons
will not be strong. To achieve the practice of internal work, one must keep
doing it until his tendons and membranes stretch and become strong.
Otherwise it would be like plants on the ground without dirt.
If you do know what it means, it's got very little to do with mobilisers and stabilisers.

Incidentally, Tohei's soft/relaxed approach (and that was undoubtedly Ueshiba's approach, but Ueshiba left less specifics than Tohei has) is better for developing this part, IMO, than some of the "harder" approaches.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 08:45 AM   #79
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,169
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Students must start
practicing from Qi first in order to keep Qi moving everywhere within their bodies.
Difficult to practice Qi when there is no concrete, tangible explanation of what Qi is to practice, you only feel the effects of the flow of Qi in the body.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
David, let me make a suggestion: It's easy to overcomplicate things. I remember when Karel started on the mobilisers and stabilisers thing, late in the Neijia List days. It's a grand theory, but he'd have been better off thinking a bit more about making gravity his friend.
No tangible, practical explanation of what qi is complicates things.

Not to be misunderstood, the theory is not Karel, there is research and medical data to support what he says.

David

Last edited by dps : 06-04-2009 at 08:49 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 09:02 AM   #80
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,499
United_States
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Difficult to practice Qi when there is no concrete, tangible explanation of what Qi is to practice, you only feel the effects of the flow of Qi in the body.

No tangible, practical explanation of what qi is complicates things.

Not to be misunderstood, the theory is not Karel, there is research and medical data to support what he says.

David
Tangible, practical. http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/but-why-7854/

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 09:06 AM   #81
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Difficult to practice Qi when there is no concrete, tangible explanation of what Qi is to practice, you only feel the effects of the flow of Qi in the body.
That's true. But then when you feel what they're talking about, finally, you realize that the real problem was the basis/perspective from which they tried to describe things, not that there is no such thing, that it's all a bunch of magical wannabelieve stuff and so on. They were talking about physically observable phenomena; some of them a little odd, granted, but nothing that is outside of the laws of physics. Take Tohei's picture showing basic jin forces:
http://www.neijia.com/OneLegPushOriginal.jpg

Looks odd, but it's just physics and skill.
Quote:
Not to be misunderstood, the theory is not Karel, there is research and medical data to support what he says.
Sure there's research about stabilisers and mobilisers.... just none that ties it into yiquan, Taiji, etc. He assumes they must be talking about the same thing.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 11:51 AM   #82
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 693
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

a few recent personal feelings...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	frustration.jpg
Views:	28
Size:	21.9 KB
ID:	612   Click image for larger version

Name:	Gah.jpg
Views:	41
Size:	38.3 KB
ID:	613   Click image for larger version

Name:	Lego Guts.jpg
Views:	40
Size:	49.9 KB
ID:	614  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Hats.jpg
Views:	38
Size:	19.6 KB
ID:	615   Click image for larger version

Name:	This cat...jpg
Views:	45
Size:	31.2 KB
ID:	616  
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 11:57 AM   #83
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 693
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

almost out of my system..
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Shattered Warriors.jpg
Views:	41
Size:	55.1 KB
ID:	617   Click image for larger version

Name:	A Hand.jpg
Views:	38
Size:	52.4 KB
ID:	618   Click image for larger version

Name:	Strange Equilibrium.jpg
Views:	93
Size:	14.6 KB
ID:	619  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Elusive snax.jpg
Views:	46
Size:	55.1 KB
ID:	620   Click image for larger version

Name:	Searching.jpg
Views:	50
Size:	66.3 KB
ID:	621  
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 11:58 AM   #84
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 693
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Done.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Pooh.jpg
Views:	26
Size:	60.8 KB
ID:	622  
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 12:25 PM   #85
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Hi Mark,

May I ask a couple of questions?
-What exactly does intent mean? To you, Mark?
Not going to help a whole lot, but when I'm doing exercises like in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVCZf53XIE0

I'm working on intent. If I wasn't, then I'd just be using muscle and pushing back into uke. Intent up-down for the spine and in-out through the arms. It has to be both going at the same time (i.e. up and down). It's my intent that's driving what my body is doing internally.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
-Who taught you to circulate it?
In a basic sense, I don't circulate it. Certain parts do have a circulatory type action, but others do not. But, it's pretty well known who I'm training with now.

(EDIT: I just realized that the vid I posted is almost a year old. Wow, time flies.)
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 12:54 PM   #86
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,499
United_States
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
almost out of my system..
THIS image of your mental state: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attach...9&d=1244138073

... is much, MUCH closer in principle to the physical aspect of this than you may imagine. There (props to Mark) you can see plainly contradictory action located at the center point of support, but with quite remote and surprising effects, because those contradictory components only really meet up in the connections in the periphery. One can see this example in linear terms and others in the body in linear terms. But if you view that structure in terms of the rotations that are not occurring because how the structure is poised and that would occur if different parts were suddenly removed -- you will have a more generally applicable sense of it and the relationship between the dynamic and static aspects.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 07:36 PM   #87
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,169
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Here is another explanation that I like.

About Yi (Intention) in Daoqiquan
Copyright IAM Co. 2009
John P. Painter

[For More, Join these Yahoo Groups: Daoqiquan; Jiulong Baguazhang]

Yi Intention

Yi Intention

( snip)

The Word Intention
When we are dealing with most Nei-gong skills we are dealing with training the mind. The Chinese martial artists of old looked at man as not having a conscious and subconscious but as having will or intention and heart or attitude. In Chinese the word for mind and intention is (Yi) and the word for mind and heart or attitude is (Xin).

The best way to describe this is an example. If you want to throw a ball to a friend then you have the intention to throw the ball. This means you are thinking about doing it but nothing has happened yet. During this phase of thought what most people do not realize is that
the brain is already sending signals to the muscles that will be involved with the action of throwing the ball through the nervous system to the motor neurons in the respective muscles. So in other words the power has been turned on slightly and all that is left to do is make the action.

Now if you stand very still and really truly visualize throwing the ball to your friend you are exercising intention this intention to throw feeling will continue during and after the physical action of throwing, but that is not where we are going just now. What is important is that you are not moving, not tensing up any muscle but you are thinking of throwing the ball. If you pay attention you can feel sensations throughout your body that feel as if you are getting ready to do this action.

What you are experiencing with this feeling is what is known as sense memory. Your are having a "waking dream" so to speak that reminds you of throwing a ball. In this "dream" you can feel the sensations of acting on your intention / idea (Yi) as a real sensation even if you are not moving and are still relaxed. In fact the more relaxed you are the stronger you can feel the sensations.

This is the crux of all practice of Nei-gong it begins with intention skill or sense memory arising (Yi-gong). Now when you do throw the ball to a friend the attitude with which you throw it is your (Xin) heart. If you are throwing to a small child the attitude is soft and gentle so as not to hurt him, if it is a buddy and you are playing football it may be much harder and with the strong feeling of blasting the ball right at him, if it is an enemy and you are throwing a rock at him to drop him in his tracks your Xin will change to reflect the way you feel emotionally about this. So the Xin affects the attitude of the intention.

What does all this have to do with sitting and standing? Read my first book Combat baguazhang volume one again to find out more but here is some of it.

"A presentation at the Society for Neuroscience conference in San Diego California in 2001 reported researchers had found a correlation between visualization and strength development. A report on the presentation appeared in New Scientist Magazine, November 21, 2001.
It explains that scientists studying the mind have proven that correctly imagining a specific exercising can increase muscle strength.

How could it be possible to increase strength just by thinking without physically moving a muscle? The answer lies in the fact that when we work out we are sending nerve impulses from the brain to the muscles. These muscles flex or relax in response to impulses from
motor neurons. The firing of those neurons is determined by the strength of electrical impulses sent by the brain.

Exercise physiologist, Dr. Guang Yue, at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation in Ohio working with a group of researchers found that mentally visualizing exercise movements was enough to increase strength in a single muscle in the little finger, used to move it sideways. Dr. Yue states, "This experiment suggests you can increase muscle strength solely by sending a larger signal to motor neurons from the brain."

Visualization uses Imagination or Imagery
Visualization can and should be used when training intention. We use the imagination when we visualize calling up or creating sense memories. Imagination is whatever is occurring in your mind not directly caused by what you are experiencing from the outside world. If you look at a tree, what you see is not an "image" you are seeing a real tree. But when the tree is not there, and you picture it in your mind, then you are producing an image from your stored memory of
the tree. Normally "imagination" refers to imaging things or events that don't exist except in your "imagination" for example, dragons.

The mind has the ability to see in three specific ways (1) observation of external real objects in real time, (2) A memory of visualized real objects as images in your head, and (3) visualized
imaginary objects in your head. Each of these three ways of seeing involves imagery, because in all cases you are seeing something, and "seeing" is a mental event, happening in your mind. When a person cannot tell whether he or she is seeing a real object or just imagining it, this is a hallucination.

One important principle when dealing with internal training is the second of these factors, neurological strength. If we can improve the signal from the brain to the motor neurons there will be a resultant increase in contractile ability in the muscle especially in the muscle fibers that produce strength known as Mobilizer fibers (fast-twitch and or White muscle Fibers). Science has shown that guided imagery exercises similar to the ones presented here can do just that.

The core of my art called Yi Xin Gong revolves around producing clear palpable sense memories of pushing, pulling, lifting and pressing upon heavy objects. In short we are imagining feats of strength without actually doing them. Employing this technique is a valuable form of internal martial art training. We first begin to work with sense memories in standing meditation (Zhan Zhuang).

It is here that we train every part of the body to develop internal power using mind only. We learn to feel your image as if it is actually occurring although we are not flexing or tensing our
muscles. This is the true meaning of the Chinese axiom, "use mind not strength" (Yong yi bu yong li).

This way of training is much more than just holding your hands or body in a particular way and waiting for something to happen. Sense memories involve truly feeling as if your body is making the effort to accomplish the feat of strength you are imagining yet you are not flexing or moving in the early stages. You remain completely relaxed during the imaging process.

For example imagine lifting a heavy weight like a granite stone sphere with both hands. Once you assume the posture you should remember holding a real heavy object using as many of your senses as possible. If you understand the concept of imagining Dynamically Opposing Forces, that I will explain fully a little later, you will actually be activating motor neurons in muscle fibers associated with this particular imagined activity. The effects of this type of exercise when repeated over a period of time will be an increase in the strength potential of skeletal muscles involved in the imaginary action which improves the capacity to produce speed and strength.

This is the basis of using Yi. I hope it helps you. The best way of course is to read Volume One of the Combat Baguazhang books and then come train with me or one of our certified teachers who knows this material from direct experience so they can help you along each step of the way.

Embedding has been turned off so try this URL:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9cAk...eature=related

February 1, 2009
Categories: Neigong . Tags: Tai Chi, Taijiquan, Bagua, Baguazhang, Xingyi, Xingyiquan, Neigong, Neijia, Pushing Hands . Author: seattlesilverdragons

http://seattlesilverdragon.wordpress...-martial-arts/

David
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 08:23 PM   #88
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Here is another explanation that I like.

About Yi (Intention) in Daoqiquan
Copyright IAM Co. 2009
John P. Painter
Heh. So why do you like it? Does it accord with what you can do, what you believe is probably true, or what? Do you figure that this is a knowledgeable style, a knowledgeable teacher, a teacher from a good lineage, or what? What about the theory printed in the post appeals to you?

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2009, 07:53 AM   #89
Adman
 
Adman's Avatar
Location: St. Louis
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 139
United_States
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Bold emphasis is mine.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
It explains that scientists studying the mind have proven that correctly imagining a specific exercising can increase muscle strength.

How could it be possible to increase strength just by thinking without physically moving a muscle? The answer lies in the fact that when we work out we are sending nerve impulses from the brain to the muscles. These muscles flex or relax in response to impulses from
motor neurons. The firing of those neurons is determined by the strength of electrical impulses sent by the brain.
David,

I know the above quote isn't actually your words so my comments are not directed to you specifically.

Mr. Painter talks about "muscle strength", and muscles flexing and relaxing. I would expect that the goal of this type of training is to keep the muscles from flexing, in order to train something deeper and more global, correct?

And what about the "feeling" created by movement without movement, through a relaxed body? What is that, exactly? Is it like the feeling of a sudden drop in an elevator (just as a crude example)? This isn't just supposed to be a trick of the imagination, is it? Something is supposed to actually happen that triggers a "feeling," that isn't an obvious muscular contraction.

So, what I read from Mr. Painter, sounds off ... or at least incomplete. And this is just to my (mostly) untrained eyes. Of course, I've only read what David posted. There may be something more.

Thanks,
Adam
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2009, 07:58 AM   #90
Adman
 
Adman's Avatar
Location: St. Louis
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 139
United_States
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
we are sending nerve impulses from the brain to the muscles.
I just read this again. If the muscles are being restricted from acting through willful relaxation, are the nerve impulses then being redirected to something else that will get the job done ... or just spreading the load ... or both?

Thanks,
Adam
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2009, 08:57 AM   #91
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote: View Post
So, what I read from Mr. Painter, sounds off ... or at least incomplete. And this is just to my (mostly) untrained eyes. Of course, I've only read what David posted. There may be something more.
It's always interesting to read the writings of Captain Doctor Painter. I've seen his theories, stories, credentials, lineage, etc., develop since the 1980's. Even the secret style he does that no one has ever heard of. Well, that's all a long story. My point is that there are a lot of people making a lot of claims about what they know, who they learned it from, their own "take" on how things work, loyal groups of students, and so on. You have to be able to pick and choose intelligently.

O-Sensei reportedly said something along the lines of "steal this technique", but he meant that you had to be able to watch what he was doing and be smart enough to figure it out. The Chinese tend to say, "Either they figure it out or they don't". So the tendency is to let the smarter people figure out what is the truth, what is suspiciously foggy stories (even from fairly strong people who can beat you up), what is partially true but not complete, and so on.

True, when done correctly, all these skills work from "the same basic teaching".... but there is also the idea that if you are even "off by one-half an inch, you can miss the target by a mile" ultimately. That's why there are so many variations out there from which to pick and choose.

FWIW

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2009, 09:42 AM   #92
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Although I appreciate what the teacher is saying and demonstrating, which he seems to do with some skill and humour, my question is one about the co-ordination and balance of the uke's. At about 1:30 the uke is 'balanced/unbalanced' on the tip of one heel, like a pole being toppled.
I am curious to know, would the 'demo' work so well if the uke was more stable/balanced and by that I don't mean 'stuck' as in the example of the second uke who seemed to me to have little or no co ordination at all?

My curiosity comes from when I watch these demo's, I ask myself how would I react or move in these situations? I understand the IHTBFness of so much of what is seen, however balance / unbalance is either/or, isn't it?

regards,

Mark
p.s (could be that I just don't understand what I am watching )

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 07:34 AM   #93
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,499
United_States
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote: View Post
And what about the "feeling" created by movement without movement, through a relaxed body? What is that, exactly? Is it like the feeling of a sudden drop in an elevator (just as a crude example)? This isn't just supposed to be a trick of the imagination, is it? Something is supposed to actually happen that triggers a "feeling," that isn't an obvious muscular contraction.
Dynamically, the transfer of angular momentum -- a wave in a chain. "Statically," the shift of the center of moment, the change of the fulcrum of the moment arm. It isn't really static because there is nothing static about it -- it is just more viscous.

Really. You can look it up.

Aiki is not the movement by leverage in the moment arm -- it is the movement of shear. Relaxation is necessary to feel what is happening, and to make the body transparent to these actions, so that it can happen.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 06-09-2009 at 07:37 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 09:07 PM   #94
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,169
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote: View Post
Bold emphasis is mine.

David,

I know the above quote isn't actually your words so my comments are not directed to you specifically.

Mr. Painter talks about "muscle strength", and muscles flexing and relaxing. I would expect that the goal of this type of training is to keep the muscles from flexing, in order to train something deeper and more global, correct?
The muscles whose function is to move are the global muscles and the muscles whose function is to stabilize are the local muscles. You are strengthening the local/stabilizing muscles by relaxing the global/mobilizing muscles so that the global/mobilizing muscles are not doing the function of the local/stabilizing muscles.

From; http://www.physiotherapyclinic.com.a...stability.html

"Global muscles are very important for movement of the limbs and trunk. Their job is to move the body. They generate a lot of force, move the body then relax.

The deep stabilizers:
* Attach directly into the lumbar spine at each level
* Turn on before you move to support the spine and pelvis
* Turn on and stay on as you move
* Work at a low intensity and stay on for long periods of time
* Work independently of the global movement muscles"

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote: View Post
And what about the "feeling" created by movement without movement, through a relaxed body? What is that, exactly? Is it like the feeling of a sudden drop in an elevator (just as a crude example)? This isn't just supposed to be a trick of the imagination, is it? Something is supposed to actually happen that triggers a "feeling," that isn't an obvious muscular contraction.
You can not directly feel the local/stabilizer muscles contractions, like you can a global/mobilizer muscle.

When the local/stabilizer muscles are doing their job of stabilizing the body, the body is well balanced against the pull of gravity ( good posture) and the global/mobilizer muscles do less work ( not helping to stabilizing the body). My experience is a feeling of lightness and warmth inside the body. The stabilizer muscles at work generate heat that is an indirect indication of them working. Also since the mobilizers are actually doing less work they don't tire as easily or quickly.

David
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 09:13 PM   #95
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,169
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
From; http://www.physiotherapyclinic.com.a...stability.html

"Turn on before you move to support the spine and pelvis"
Intent

David
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 09:33 PM   #96
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Deletes post as a waste of time.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2009, 03:21 PM   #97
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 693
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

I know the feeling.

Hey..by the way; I stumbled into the 'picking up the knife' post.
From_here

I guess right?
Josh
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2009, 03:35 PM   #98
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
I know the feeling.

Hey..by the way; I stumbled into the 'picking up the knife' post.
From_here
The things I mentioned in that posts are known extensions of ki/qi, not stuff that I've made up on my own in some sort of "here's my take on things" approach to these skills. So the people who are working on their own theories simply need to figure out how there's a line from what they're teaching to the things I mentioned.

And BTW.... that's a common scenario even in China: guy comes up with his own theory and people say, "So how does that work with what are known adjuncts of ki/qi". It's been my experience that when I ask that question I tend to get either a tapdance or someone goes silent in their posting until it's safe to come out again. Which is no big deal, as far as I'm concerned, but people need to constantly think and question while these things are getting started. There's an old saying that a lot of westerners don't really take to heart: "These things are very deep". I.e., a guy who gets a few basic skills and thinks he knows everything is simply dooming himself later down the road as students, etc., begin to learn the broader picture. Hence, I keep suggesting that people need to not rush into the "I've got a secret" scenario too quickly.... what they don't know is going to be obvious in just a few years as things progress. Talk things out.

FWIW

Mike
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Teaching Aikido to Children Workshop wmreed Seminars 2 09-06-2008 04:33 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 3 Peter Goldsbury Columns 16 05-28-2007 06:24 AM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 2 Peter Goldsbury Columns 3 04-19-2007 04:53 AM
What's your sensei teaching you? Robert Jackson General 29 06-13-2005 07:08 AM
Is aikido suitable for children. big old smiler Teaching 9 01-06-2005 05:00 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:36 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate