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Old 05-31-2009, 10:22 PM   #51
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: The same basic teaching

I`m going to keep talking to myself, for a bit.
And yeah, I`m still okay with it.
Josh
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Old 05-31-2009, 10:34 PM   #52
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Re: The same basic teaching

A few disclaimers...
Josh
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Old 05-31-2009, 10:38 PM   #53
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Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Basic principles. Like in the baseline skillset thread.

Mike
It is a good answer, and I agree. That said, I have read that whole thread a couple time through...it didn't go all that well. But it was a different time.

But the way I see it ‘Basics' could be in relation to: the bodyskill, definitely could be some mind/body/systemhack aspects, about standing still in one spot (zhan zhuang), about doing one thing 100,000 times, listening inside the body, definitely linked with eastern meditative concepts, religions, definitely plausibly linked with Chi Sickness (/kundalini syndrome), latent powers (psi, etc), qigong, meditation, way of hara, ...alchemy, and other hermetic concerns.

I think it could safely be said that all of these topics, at least, come up at one point or another. And personally speaking, that blows my mind, that so many issues can arise from the acquisition of a specific bodyskill. Or is that not true? Do the one spring from the many? Or are we in fact lumping many separate things into one grab bag...because the grouping is ‘logical' when seen in a certain, chosen, vantage point?

And by basics, others may yet mean the tao itself. knowing here full well that the tao that can be spoken of is not the dao. this dao is the deep magick of nature. the worship of the naturepowers, ultimately. If you so choose. And to be specific this *is* a choice.
Some make the choice implicitly, and others make it deliberately. I do not think that this is the truth of the situation. In this regard, I cannot be more explicit.

But, as you say, as I think, and as Dan implicitly treats it; it is best left in the realm of physical origins causing physical effects.
And in this way; I'll proceed.

Best,
Josh
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Old 05-31-2009, 10:42 PM   #54
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Re: The same basic teaching

re: What and Why.
Every thread that purported to explain ki/chi that i have ever read on the web was more-or-less a complete disaster. That being said, this will be mine.

It has been recently re-said that budo begins and ends with rei. Let it be so done..
I would personally like to thank the many members of Aikiweb. Never in my life have I ever participated in an on-line forum, and was only moved to do so because of the extraordinary people i have ‘seen' ‘virtually' on-line. This truly is a special time to be alive as the meetings themselves are virtual, but these connections are real. In some cases truly one-sided, but in others I hope to say as real as it gets. If I were a millionaire i would organize a fully paid Aikiweb gathering where we could all meet face to face. I would like to specifically thank the following people, who, over time have given me much to think about; Dan Harden, Mike Sigman, Rob John, Charles Hill, Peter Goldsbury, George Ledyard, Dennis Hooker, Kevin Wilbanks, Ophir Donchin, Ron Tisdale, Ellis Amdur, Mark Murray, Rob Liberti, Aleksey Sundeyev, Shaun Ravens, Gernot Hassenpflug, Damian Lost, Josh Reyer, Josh Lerner, Peter Rehse, Rennis Buchner, Don Modesto, Rupert Atkinson, Chris Li. These posters have taught me so much over time; and I find that the time spent reading their posts was (/almost always) time well spent. I do not say that I agree with everything posted (gah!), but I have always been given things to think about. I am sure I have missed some people. I am sorry that by identifying certain individuals this automatically omits others...this is regrettable. But I believe that excellence should be identified; and in this case it is wholly personal; and I am personally very grateful. I do have a list of people I would like to unthank, but I think it in bad taste to publish, so i'll just skip that.

Quote:
That is that regardless of who holds what opinion, as a whole it is more important that at least we are holding discussions, civilly debating our personally-held points and cross training in open environments
I agree wholeheartedly with the above sentiment. I'm planning to publish a few letters I have been sitting on for a while. While they are my opinions, my perspective and *a* point of view, I do mean them honestly and I do not mean to give any offence. Truly. I will try not to take any offence either. I am expecting some, as it's said, ‘No Good Deed Goes Unpunished'. Also knowing the fact that statistically the more you speak/write the more likely to make a mistake doesn't help. I talk too much. Well, here, I feel that to keep quiet would be a mistake, and to say something I will certainly make a mistake, so you see my problem. Nothing ventured, Nothing Gained, God willing. I am trying to do my best on a number of fronts, not the least of which is to give back to those who gave to me and to help those looking. I think my main contribution is to advance the discussion...saying that which has not yet been said. I am not sure why it is the case, and left to me, but I will take the chance while it's open. And one last point: While the above quotation hits a very important point, I do not think it hits thee most important point. I think it is most important to untiringly search for the truth, in all things. To seek for Truth, Love and Righteousness above all things will never lead you wrong.
Good Luck to us all.
Best always,
Josh
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Old 05-31-2009, 10:49 PM   #55
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Re: The same basic teaching

This is a previously unpublished response to a post Dan made in this
thread.

Hi Dan,
Thank you very much for your thoughts.
I would like to do something different.
I am by no means learned in these things. I am not going to pretend I got it. My understanding transcends my skills, and my understanding isn't all that much. I would like to share some of the things I learned, and subject them to my betters. Both to share and also to refine. The problem is that I don't think anything I learned is my own; it was more or less pieced together from bits of others. And no small part is from you. In other words, everything I will write is more or less plagiarized. So; if it's okay i would like to (now and later) respond to other rhetorical questions you have posed over time; with the understanding that my own (mis-)understandings are mine own..

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well in a word...yes. the shock is not nearly the same shock -say on trained body, as compared to an untrained one-a normal martial artist.
I wondered about this. I believe that what you are speaking about above is important in approaching anti-aiki. I couldn't see how else it would go. An experienced person with 'it' would obviously get hit if someone hit him. But the load is somewhat dissipated because of the nature of the changed body.

Quote:
And thats just a start without the one with the trained body being "on" as well.
That is also something I was thinking about. You can't go walking around 'on' all the time, can you? This would (/must?) have some long term consequences (beyond roundly packed poo). You wrote "energy manifest is energy in use". In an obvious way, it is not good to go around flexed all the time. Who does that? But in an encounter; you must be 'on' from the instant you suspect something's going down, to the end, until you can drop zanshin, right? Does anyone try to go around 'on' all the time? What is the longest you can? Is that even a relevant concern? I would think short intense burst of high tension to be much more critical in actual use. During practice, long-hold postures (i.e. standing practice) would encourage low-intensity high duration tension. Dunno. During my bodywork as I regained lost function and alignments I found i had to maintain awareness and somewhat consciously try to use the new motion, or muscle, or alignment for a while, and then all of the sudden, a 'level-up' where it kind of took care of itself. I would say structure shifted to a new stable one. (I wonder if some rationalize evolution because of this effect; I see it as the healing principle; "The Mitzvah Technique") I extrapolate it is the same with tanden. At some point it is 'on' always, albeit at a lower amount of tension, but still there, nonetheless.
And that is a big difference between on and off, and always on, albeit at a lower scale. Like moving a car at a red light...much easier to go fast with 'some momentum'.

Quote:
You would have to have had experience in cancelling out, and redirecting power, instantly-sometimes without thought sometimes with -of some pretty substantial people to know and believe what I am talking about. That's okay to doubt it. I would as well.
In the realm of the physical, I do not doubt this power. I have never seen it or felt it in *anyone*, but from what i learned to feel (i.e. by listening *inside* the body), specifically about how to use hara generated tension to reinforce the body structure and even to send hara generated tension, I do not doubt it. I have no ideas about the limits of the physical power, nor the clever uses for it. What I do doubt is the metaphysical stuff attached to it. But everytime i find myself using hara-power, i find things get weird. Beyond this, I cannot say I understand it. Is it the seat of the soul? Who knows? It is where the umbilical cord was attached. Each cell in our living body courses with life, so long as we breathe. What is life? A gift? I certainly didn't do it. The atoms of carbon of a living cell are *IDENTICAL* to the atoms of carbon of the earth. Dunno.

I believe the last part of the above quote is relegated to the 'Need more Practice' answer. The martial ways of the Jp and Cn are extraordinarily clever. It is not like they have different organs or such, but rather very clever uses of all the things we are, and have.

Knowing the little in this area, that i do, I can only see a little way past where I am. I found this stuff not by pursuing power (I think); but rather in trying to fix/rebalance structural problems (i.e. search: malalignment syndrome) i got..damaged while doing Aikido. I don't practice Aikido any more, and why I quit is a topic I have thought much about. I got a toe-hold on this stuff right before I quit, but it is not ‘cause I couldn't play nice given the shift, although I think it would go the way you say. I'll leave it at that for now.

Quote:
It is not for no good reason that we keep citing "the changing of the body", "the need to temper the body to creat aiki".
I would like to talk much more about specifically this fascinating aspect of the subject. My interest, which lead me to stumble upon this, stems from needing to rebalance (literally the skeletal alignment, length-tension relationships of muscles, postural distortions (upper and lower crossed syndrome)....I was a mess after doing aikido). Something that made crystal clear sense way after was something you wrote: (paraphrased) "What it means to choose strength over flexibility". I will write on that later.
Quote:
Temper...Change...Aiki
I think I understand. We have to basically increase the baseline amount of latent energy in the body. Must balance structure. Must increase resting tonic of muscles. Must restore length-tension relationships. Must remove any slack within the feedback loop that is the body. It *is* hilariously difficult. That one phrase served as much inspiration to me over time. It is strange and unexpected how our presence on the web can effect others. That is a major reason for my posts. I want to help people to focus on the physical skills, as I spent a lot of time looking in other ratholes..that i never set out to explore. That is probably my bitterness coming out a bit; It was never made clear what the *it* was at the outset. And, for the record, there are lots of rathole deviations to fall into. These things are valuable but the field is laden with mines.

I digress. All of the following is my experience only. R&D on the body can be dangerous; so anyone doing these things MUST be careful. I saw discovering internal principles as likened to a poor beggar man being given a million dollars. It is possible, and even likely that he'd kill himself with ‘good living' and overdo *everything*, all at once. These things require judgement.

Changing the body: We have to become the body. Not be in the body. Not slump. Not to feel a victim of our body. When you have ‘fixed' it then you're cooking with gasoline. Need to "attain energy" in the body, and not worry about flexing individual muscles. The ‘tool' needs to be sharp and in condition to work. The system must be complete and ready to move or conduct force.
To conduct force ‘clearly' from extent to extent. To have strong abs. Transversus, and all the muscles that form the outer hara wall. I believe hara is defined much in the same way that holes are defined in electron-hole solid state theory. A hole is an absence of electrons. Here it's a virtual structure defined by the muscles that define its boundary. The seika tanden itself is a ‘hole of muscle' that can effectively be treated as muscle. Think of a ying-yang ball. Outer body is black...as it gets pushed on the inner body (hara) is white, and it counter rotates to absorb and balance tension in the body. If it's ready for it. You can feel this ‘hara rotation' next time you are in a car banking sharply, with hara ‘on'. It can be used to create tension in the outer-body. Here; I visualize Rob John's craptastic drawings from long-ago showing body axes. The axes are the outer body. The hara the inner body. You can use the hara to draw up excess tension in the body or you can use it to leverage. Or you can use it to ratchet up the body. Or you can send the tension outwards by forced rotating the hara against the direction of rotation it naturally did. I do not think I am sure about the purpose of ‘sending' energy outwards from hara in this method. I think this is the beginning of ‘emitted qi' which may or may not be physical, and then other ‘religious things of the east' such as remote effects beyond the skin, and things I do not know how to classify other than as delusion, chi gung sickness, kundalini syndrome, etc. It definitely will play tricks on your mind. In short this area presents a lot of confusion. I think this now leaves the realm of physical and goes... highly non-linear in human/spirit terms. I am a Christian, and my judgment is that at this point I go no further. I praise God, and know my limits. For example, No Step 8. What does this mean? There is nothing physical at that point and beyond.

I do not know if it is envisioned as extremely bad form to say things this baldly. I hope not, and mean no disrespect to anyone. In fact it is my attempt to honour those that shared with me. I have no sensei, keppan, or anything like that. I am a free man. Free to make a fool of myself. Free to help others. I take a risk here by saying all these things. But I am here, on Aikiweb for a good time. Not for a long time. I need to break up with aikiweb...a phrase that has been bouncing in my head since Chi'imed (sp?) first wrote them.

Quote:
And that's just the start. You...like so many others keep talking about "doing" stuff and the "timing" of it.
You are right. But I would like to say that I am doubleminded at the moment, with respect to this ‘stuff'. I think where this points to is a different way the body reacts. It is now viewed as a composite device. Not the sum of different parts, but a new changed whole with entirely different dynamics. It just responds in the way you describe. I think that's what you mean. Timing and doing is irrelevant. The body naturally responds this way. This is why it is the "Toolbox"...not a set of techniques. This is how I take your meaning.

Quote:
The mounain echo is interesting in that it can be created in the body differently. One is slower than the other and less clean the other more instant and more manipulative.
I think I understand.
Method I
The hara is ‘on' deliberately; and it is somewhat ‘detached' from the rest of the body, in that it can move a relatively large amount of rotation, and is consciously controlled. Because of the mental conscious control it is less clean. This mode is most likely used when ‘playing', doing long-hold postures, yoga, standing practice, push-out, etc.

Method II
The hara is ‘on' deliberately; but it is more rigidly attached to the outer body. This way the body is like a tuning fork. You get hit or pushed and instantly this is related to the hara. This is a much higher energy mode of being in aiki. It is also likely that this mode is used in a real physical encounter. This method is tapped into during the typical verbal setup for unbendable arm.

Quote:
But, "echo" is an interesting thought. I had some facinating hands-on discussions with a Chinese teacher over here visiting about that very idea.
I do not think I know what this means.
First thought is that this is linked with ‘bouncing someone away', literally storing the incoming energy (I think of: What Receives feeds, and what feeds receives), but due to the two methods you outline, I think I have got this wrong.

Quote:
Cheers
Dan
Cheers Back at ‘Ya.
And many thanks to you.
Josh
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Old 05-31-2009, 10:52 PM   #56
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Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Frankly, I'm not into belief systems.
Best.
Mike Sigman
I would argue:
We all are. That is the way we are wired. And to be clear, even not to make a choice, is to choose. There are certain problems in the class I call ‘Equalizers'. Where all men, be they kings or peasants, men of long ago, or us now, face. For instance the question of Ultimate Origin, is one such question. And, if truth be told, we do not have enough facts to show things ultimately clearly one way or another. In fact, whatever beliefs we have, at their ultimate end, require a leap of faith of one sort or another. ALL beliefs are this way. And the best *we* can do is use our faculties to their utmost, be they analysis, critical thinking, earnest searching, honesty, self-reflection and checking them against reality; where the proverbial rubber meets the road.

As Jim Morrison said, ‘No one here gets out alive'.

And since I mention music, I want to mention "Give a Little Bit" by Supertramp. I am trying here and it's already cost a bit.. And yes, everyone has an agenda, even if that means just being the best person that you can be... knowing full well that this means different things to different people.

Best,
Josh
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Old 05-31-2009, 10:58 PM   #57
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Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Here is an idea of how some basic stuff crosses arts and cultures. This guy taught in Japan for 11 years. Among his students were 2 of Sagawa's long time students. He is a very interesting and wonderful man with some intriguing ideas of his own about Daito Ryu and Internal Chinese arts.
Cheers
Dan

see here
Hi Dan,
Thank you for the link and thanks for the reference.

I think I saw some of the things you mention.
I would never have looked closely at that video had you not mentioned it.

It's funny, these conversations, as it is like using radar to find a plane. The first one to use radar is actually seen first, as it is like using a flashlight in the dark to find something.

I took a close look, like I say; and would like to share some impressions on how the bodyskills are demoed, as i see them. And then, if you don't mind...a few questions. And, by the way, thank you again.

Your other post confused me. Who should I watch? I watched mostly uke first to see what he felt; and then teacher to see why, maybe, he felt it.
Generally, there is not a lot of movement of the teacher, as is usual for video.

Regarding the timeline 2:07-2:28
-Teacher encouraged student (uke) to gram his arms
-When that happened, teacher absorbed force from his arms through his body, i believe fighting the load at his hara.
-the load, to uke; is still mostly horizontal, pushing him straight backwards, more or less
-teacher skilfully ‘accepts' uke's push into his body. uke locks his body up into a ‘stable' structure, effectively forming kokyu in his body (with no balance, no ki and floating/not grounded). The teacher loads uke's kokyu structure onto his own.
-teacher skilfully shortcircuits connection of uke at his hara, shunted to the earth
-uke is caught completely off balance; since he was pushing horizontally; and investing his weight (+) and his kokyu structure (+) he was double sided. He is suddenly caught ‘weightless' as teacher's upwards vector is both surprising and completely non-compliant...it is the earth itself
-As uke falls into the artificially created void he is further off balanced, then at one point the teacher shunts the ground path back to the student lifting him "violently"
-teacher gets more and more aggressive showing progression to harder and more deliberate movements
-think i saw a nikkyo writs lock coupled with sankyo arm kokyu-lock on uke at 2:37..but i'm mostly talking shit at this point.

Regarding the timeline: 2:52
Honestly have not much idea what's going on here. Wishing I could see teachers right arm. I think with his right arm he just barely locks uke's wrist; so he can control this side of his body, but most of the action is on teacher's left side.
I think here he is showing how he can move the strength across his body to the other side.
I really wish I spoke the language, so I could hear what he is saying.
I see the tenchi nage that you mention, i think it is downward spiral on front leg, along Sartorius spiral to hara, and up through crossline to other arm. Not too sure about this.

Ok; now some questions, If I could:
@0.42
-I notice that it is very very strange how uke is spit out like a whirlpool. That energy put into him was truly circular/rotational. We went around and around and wanted off before the ride was done. It was funny.
-I oftentimes notice when hara is in play that things get ‘weird' like that. "It" was very pure here.
-After thinking about this; I think it may be something like: related to the 10,000 V shock phenomena by uke; but instead of issuing fajing and being sudden and sharp, the joint kokyu alignment structures of uke/teacher (ki no musubi), which is caused by the teacher holding aiki in his body; and then imposing it onto uke; compressing the alignment quite a bit; and then open-circuiting the connection (i.e. comparatively slowly; but not as fast as fajing) with uke lined up rotationally aligned to the load; so that it ‘peacefully' spiralled through uke

@0.46.
I think: He makes an intense kiai. I think this is the moment of rising energy, where he locks his structure in a pulse that propagates from the ground upwards, sequentially and almost simultaneously.
What is he actually trying to teach at that moment. There is something about the kiai I cannot put my finger on. He really does *it* right there.
I like what you said about energy manifest is energy in use. I think this was a big exertion for him, judging from the sound; but I don't know which ways he could use it. I think if you touched him at that moment; you'd bounce off, omnidirectionally. This is conjecture.

@1:22
Is this a demo of the upper cross?
-I was thinking that he was standing strong; with tension going up and down inside, and then he stretched his arms like that to move the tension across the back. His body is thus spring, and ready for action. .
-Again; I wish i could speak the language.

Dan, you said
Quote:
He is a very interesting and wonderful man with some intriguing ideas of his own about Daito Ryu and Internal Chinese arts
Can you say a bit about what you find intriguing?
Best,
Josh
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Old 05-31-2009, 11:01 PM   #58
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Re: The same basic teaching

Hi Mike

Quote:
However, Liu's use of the dantien appears to me to be markedly different from what you'd normally see in a Japanese martial art. There are a number of different approaches and I'd be reluctant to try and convey the idea that the ki/kokyu skills of *some* Chinese martial arts is very much the same as, say, Ushiro's karate, D.R., Ueshiba's Aikido, and so on, without caveating the differences within the use of the baseline skills.

Mike Sigman
Who, then is top of the line? CXW? Clips make him look very powerful. Have no idea what he does; I think #8 mixed with #11 below knowing he could do all of them.
May I ask;
What are traits of top-of-the-line?

You have posed this point a few times, I think; about the differences in use, and approaches. You made me try to think (/extrapolate) about what they may be. Would you mind being a sounding board?

Different approaches to usage of dantien:
(BTW I think of dantien and seika tanden as synonyms. Is it true? )

1. consciously deeply absorb and manipulate the force. "Playing"
2. force-field like early repulsion (aiki cast off), always keeping hara ahead of uke. Contact is light and precise. Refined displays of old masters for example 94 year old ‘bagua wisdom clip' on youtube.
3. Shallow kokyu coupling (tuning fork like early cast off), heavily manipulating with kua. See this in taiji.
4. allow deep kokyu coupling, and slow, conscious manipulation. Playing; push-out
5. allow deep kokyu coupling, and quick repulsion, fajing; Dan's selection of Chengde above.
6. allow deep kokyu coupling, and powerful trap, .
7. absorb at hara (trap), shunt to ground or other path; This may be closer to a technique that a differing use of dantien. The converse case of absorbing at ground, then shunting power at hara.
8. Crushing. Hara powers through linearly behind direct force. (Xingyi ‘crushing'). I guess karate use of dantien may be this.
9. peace. Aikido; Deep kokyu-aiki link, Dissipate or cast off. (That whirlpool in the above)
10. deep kokyu, then internal disruption of uke's kokyu, leading to ‘seize-up'capture (i.e. DR)
11. powerful rapidly direction changing kokyu; omnidirectional shockwave; Like this: Like this! What on earth did he do to uke? Internally speaking.

I am trying to advance the conversation; I do not know if the above is correct. It is opinion and conjecture only. What do you think?

Best,
Josh

Aiki Technique
Quote:
If human body is supposed to computer, then the Aiki might be a kind of computer viruses such as "Trojan horse". The system passes it as "of itself" (because, at first, it does not attempt to do any harm to the system), and then it feels very sorry about this.

Or, it could be said that Aiki is not "punch" but "penetration".

Watching the old black and white files of Morihei UESHIBA Oosensei, it is possible to note that the counterparts could not have any chances to touch the hands of O'sensei. This is nothing but the Aiki.

About the Aiki, it might be possible to write and to speak at length. But as the old saying goes, "to see is to believe". Unfortunately, in our time, the time of the commercialization of combat skills, the Aiki is encountered very rarely.

Because of its rarity and mysteriousness, there are many issues around Aiki. Some regard it with the distrust: they might say this is only fraud; others talk about the black magic. However, as a person who has experienced Aiki himself, I can say that this is anything but fake. It is neither black magic, nor fraud. Aiki does not lie beyond human abilities. This is simply an ancient technique, which, possibly, seems mysterious or even mystical from the side at first glance. However, this is simply a technique.
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Old 06-01-2009, 01:34 AM   #59
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Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Who, then is top of the line?
maybe this guy?
http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/...20Stanford.pdf
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Old 06-01-2009, 10:27 AM   #60
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Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
This is a previously unpublished response to a post Dan made in
Hi Josh,

Um, long post. Read through it. Not sure if it's just semantics or how you're defining concepts, but I wouldn't explain what I was doing the way you did in your post. Your descriptions sound foreign to what I'm doing. Just for an example, there is no flexing or burst of high tension.

Another example, the body is trained to be, so it really isn't a matter of being "'on' from the instant you suspect something's going down". It's what Ueshiba meant when he said that ushiro attacks can be dangerous for uke. Ueshiba didn't need to sense the attack or be "on" for that training.

Unfortunately, the IHTBF (It Has To Be Felt) syndrome applies.
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:43 PM   #61
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Re: The same basic teaching

Hi Mark,
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hi Josh,
Um, long post.
Yeah I know.

Quote:
... I wouldn't explain what I was doing the way you did in your post. Your descriptions sound foreign to what I'm doing.
Hey, there are no guarantees about my posts either, eh? I am thinking out loud..
Are you thinking more along <these> lines?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
...
So, I have my intent going up, pulling my spine upwards. I have my intent as a heavy weight pulling my spine downwards, stretching my spine. It isn't one then the other, back and forth. They're going at the same time.
..
May I ask a couple of questions?
-What exactly does intent mean? To you, Mark?
-Who taught you to circulate it?
-on a related note I'd like to change my answer (a bit) about the video. I think the hand dithering motion is related to keeping the pressure suit (i.e. the sausage suit that we all wear) in integrity, and actively ‘full'.
-I think this is one part of the entire equation needed for aiki. What is being shown in the vid (my opinion) is keeping full body connection, mechanical structure, and keeping 'ki' in the system....but there are other ingredients for the recipe.
- In the beginning it is hard enough to stay 'full' and with connection. Later it will be easier, the body will learn. But going around 'full' all the time doesn't make intuitive sense. Therefore there is a filling time..this is what I meant by 'on'.
-The tension I spoke of is for application in movement/technique/issuing. The dantien/tanden is the virtual ball that can remove slack from the body....generating tension along mind-directed paths. I extrapolate that doing this quickly can apply a 'load' to uke. Doing it quickly...or in a high tension burst could be valuable. Imagine if you could make this into an attack. Fajing. I think it is called. I do not know if/what there is a Jpn equivalent.

What do you think?
Best,
Josh
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:39 PM   #62
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: The same basic teaching

Hi Ricky,
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Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Thanks for the link.
I don't know...but the video i remember seeing had some wicked powerful movements of the guy. Gave a new meaning to 'explosive'. I could imagine the whole body concentrated into a point "clearly".

I guess, to me <this> kind of thing is even more incredible. It seems nothing is happening at all...but the reactions are big. Or is it a case of the dives? Dunno.

Josh
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:46 PM   #63
Mike Sigman
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Re: The same basic teaching

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Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
I guess, to me <this> kind of thing is even more incredible. It seems nothing is happening at all...but the reactions are big. Or is it a case of the dives? Dunno.
Not even dives. Pure BS. This is the "WannaBelieve Factor". If you're going to comment about martial-arts, you couldn't do worse than to say you're not sure about that one. Maybe if you sort of got your feet wet instead of theorizing about rain?

Best.

Mike
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:55 PM   #64
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: The same basic teaching

Ok- Well, I don't know. The Bagua Wisdom clip was in the same vein, and you posted that one. I would have done better to have linked to that one. Not so much a 'wannabelive' as wanting to know what's going down. So BS, eh? Good to know. What set off your bs detector?

It is that last leap from visible to truly not, that I would have guessed was what you meant by top-of-the line.

Best,
Josh

Mike - so 'nothing doing' on the other stuff?

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 06-01-2009 at 08:57 PM. Reason: poke poke
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Old 06-01-2009, 09:03 PM   #65
Mike Sigman
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Re: The same basic teaching

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Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Ok- Well, I don't know. The Bagua Wisdom clip was in the same vein, and you posted that one. I would have done better to have linked to that one. ?
Ah.... I see. No, those were obviously different clips.

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-02-2009, 03:07 AM   #66
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Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
What is being shown in the vid (my opinion) is keeping full body connection, mechanical structure, and keeping 'ki' in the system....but there are other ingredients for the recipe.
Would you mind trying to define those: full body connection, mechanical structure and keeping 'ki' in the system? And why do you use two terms that make sense to my Western mind (the first two) and then add 'ki' as a component?

Quote:
But going around 'full' all the time doesn't make intuitive sense. Therefore there is a filling time..this is what I meant by 'on'.
Think of the lungs: there always remains a small amount of air in the lungs to keep them from collapsing. So in a way, they are full all the time. Not completely full, as you do breath in and out, but still they are 'on' all the time.
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Old 06-02-2009, 07:16 AM   #67
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Re: The same basic teaching

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Would you mind trying to define those: full body connection, mechanical structure and keeping 'ki' in the system? And why do you use two terms that make sense to my Western mind (the first two) and then add 'ki' as a component?
Full Body Connection: The tension throughout the body. The one we try to train .... to grow it without bounds. Always increasing the internal tensions... That is one way I understand the purpose of Shugyo.

Mechanical Structure: Macroscopic alignment of bones and joints. And the literal paths the muscles and tendons take when wrapped around the skeletal system.

Ki: Energy filling your muscles. Flexing takes muscles. Some 'intent' was sent to flex the muscle. There is much more to this. It is definitely a different and unique component from the first two.

Quote:
Think of the lungs: there always remains a small amount of air in the lungs to keep them from collapsing. So in a way, they are full all the time. Not completely full, as you do breath in and out, but still they are 'on' all the time.
Yes. I agree with what you say.
Actually; originally when I mentioned 'on' it was in regards to forming the tanden actively. In the previous post to Mark it was in respect to a different aspect.

Best,
Josh

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 06-02-2009 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 06-02-2009, 07:21 AM   #68
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Re: The same basic teaching

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Ah.... I see. No, those were obviously different clips.

Best.

Mike Sigman
Wish I saw what you see.
Josh
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Old 06-02-2009, 08:28 AM   #69
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: The same basic teaching

Hi Mike,

re: DR
<It is that last leap from visible to truly not, that I would have guessed was what you meant by top-of-the line>

Quote:
What set off your bs detector?
And just a word about that; Personally my BS meter is usually off the scales when watching all this stuff. A lot of it is utter crap. I just personally cannot believe 'complete crap' is out there in the copious quantities it seems to be. Those people should rightly be ashamed of themselves if it is as you say.
I am trying to suspend my disbelief, temporarily, to sift the truth of it.

In regards to the DR link above;

>>Now this puzzles me; how can a hard hit feel light? Or is it perfectly aligned with uke's structure; that it was a groundpath sure shot down the line? Wouldn't there be a strong compression at the skin contact point? How could *that* feel light? This is a puzzle to me.

Quote:
Next, I held my arms firmly in front of me and was thrown as soon as Kimura Sensei made contact, even with a light touch. I thought, "OK, what about soft grab, relaxed one, or even just a touch." Kimura Sensei invited me again, this time to try any soft grip, touch his hand, or just softly grab sleeve of his jersey with my little finger and thumb. I did all this, attempting in many different ways, and every single time I was thrown onto the sofa. Although I could not feel any power being used, the impact of my fall was such that I felt hurt even though I was landing on a soft, comfortable surface. It felt like being thrown by the wind.
My only response to this, other than bewilderment, is that uke's body was so traumatized by the earlier hard 10,000v shocks, that teacher was able to elicit a 'suggestive' response by his later touches. This relies on teacher-student link being established. I believe these light 'wind-touches' would not have worked right at the beginning of the session.

Josh

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 06-02-2009 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 06-02-2009, 09:30 AM   #70
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Re: The same basic teaching

Hi Dan,
I hope you do not mind me copying your posts out of context here in this thread. I am afraid I made a mistake in doing that. I thought you wonderfully captured many sentiments and some feelings I independently had. I copied them here only to frame my posts. I do not mean to insinuate any endorsement from you. I think that I may have, in error, implied some where there is none meant. I think that I have to make that clear.

My (mis-)understandings are mine own.
My posts are a take off on things found, researched and analyzed. I wanted to share, give a hand up, and open up the discussion. As I trust you see, I have thought a lot about some things you've written. My intent was honorable, I assure you.

I hope I have given no offense. If I have, I do publicly apologize.
I am hoping to hear from you, specifically.
I understand if you choose not, as this thread is a hodge podge of one man's take on The same basic teaching...loosely intersecting with ... what I believe, are the things you discuss.

Either way, and as always, thank you for your efforts.
Cheers,
Josh

p.s. How off base was my interpretation of Liu ChengDe's vid?
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Old 06-02-2009, 10:42 AM   #71
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Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Hi Mike,

re: DR
My point is more toward the idea of "The same basic teaching" in the header of the thread. These ki/kokyu/qi/jin skills are part of a logical and interrelated set of skills analogous to, let's say, mathematics. The rules of mathematics work logically (for the most part) and so do the rules of these skills. However, Calculus is not quite the same thing as matrices and linear determinants. Nor is a guy who specializes in long division going to have the same skills as someone who uses Fourier Analysis, even though the basic operations of math are the same. My point, which I've tried to make several times is that when someone lumps everyone together in "doing these skills" they're making a mistake.

I've seen some Shaolin and White Crane guys come to the US from mainland China and Taiwan and start teaching "Tai Chi". It's not really Tai Chi at all, but since the guys can show some power (and the western observers don't know enough to spot the differences), the ruse works. So my point is that yes there is a basic set of principles (just like math has) in these skillsets but not everyone is doing and training toward the same goals with these skillsets... and that needs to be recognized. Of course I've said the same thing on QiJin and people still start lumping exercises together without really understanding that some of that is counter-productive.

All of that being said, I always fall back on the standard Asian IQ test for people who want to a deeper level of understanding of the martial arts..... "you either figure it out or you don't". That's essentially the same thing as "steal this technique if you can; if you can't you don't deserve to have it".

FWIW

Mike
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Old 06-02-2009, 12:30 PM   #72
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Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Full Body Connection: The tension throughout the body. The one we try to train .... to grow it without bounds. Always increasing the internal tensions... That is one way I understand the purpose of Shugyo.
How can I recognize this tension when it manifests itself in my body? And what are are the best exercises to train this tension?
Quote:
Mechanical Structure: Macroscopic alignment of bones and joints. And the literal paths the muscles and tendons take when wrapped around the skeletal system.
What are the differences between correct and incorrect mechanical structure? Should one do specific exercises to improve this alignment?
Quote:
Ki: Energy filling your muscles. Flexing takes muscles. Some 'intent' was sent to flex the muscle. There is much more to this. It is definitely a different and unique component from the first two.
Can this be trained as well? If so, how?

Could you explain through an example (for instance grounding a push) how these three components work together?
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Old 06-03-2009, 08:47 AM   #73
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Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Full Body Connection: The tension throughout the body. The one we try to train .... to grow it without bounds. Always increasing the internal tensions... That is one way I understand the purpose of Shugyo.

Mechanical Structure: Macroscopic alignment of bones and joints. And the literal paths the muscles and tendons take when wrapped around the skeletal system.

Ki: Energy filling your muscles. Flexing takes muscles. Some 'intent' was sent to flex the muscle. There is much more to this. It is definitely a different and unique component from the first two.
Let me give you some elaborating questions to answer -- for yourself. I've answered them, but no one here much likes my answers, it seems (although somebody is obviously reading them-- http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/blogs/...ogs&more=views) -- but they do work -- for me, -- but apparently not for some. Takes all kinds, I suppose...

"What is present when moving and there is no 'tension'?"
"What is there when this same thing is present -- but not moving?"

There is something else, besides tension.

"What is the shape of the structural path when moving?"
"When not moving?"

It has a definite shape, moving or not -- and which the structures of the body may, or may not, express.

"What moves a limb when there is no limb muscle flexion involved in moving it?"
"What is present when no limb muscle flexion is used to not move under an externally applied load?"

The full answer to your concerns, as a Westerner, is in two questions, answered in plain, Western terms:

"What is Ki?" and

"What is not Ki?"

Answer those -- FOR YOURSELF -- and you will have what you seek, and be able to demonstrate it -- to a degree depending on the depth of your answer and your dedication to working on applying it.

Everyone here speaking to the point did -- in one way or another...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:28 AM   #74
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Re: The same basic teaching

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
How can I recognize this tension when it manifests itself in my body? And what are are the best exercises to train this tension?

What are the differences between correct and incorrect mechanical structure? Should one do specific exercises to improve this alignment?

Can this be trained as well? If so, how?

Could you explain through an example (for instance grounding a push) how these three components work together?
The more explanations you hear sooner or later you will find one that you understand better than the rest. This one helps me.
I highlighted two sections in bold print.

"Whole-body Strength
The above three feats of Rock Body, Steel Body and Cotton Body are all expression of what is called whole-body strength. To understand what the whole-body strength is, let's look at body musculature. There are two kinds of skeletal muscles: those that are involved in movement, so called motor muscles or mobilisers, and those that stabilise the body, so called postural muscles or stabilisers. The mobilisers are, on the whole, of the fast-twitch variety; they can contract and relax in a short interval but they get tired quickly. The stabilisers are of the slow-twitch variety; they do not get tired easily but, on the other hand, are quite slow. They are situated deeper in the body than the mobilisers.

The above division into the two kinds of muscles is a somewhat simplified view for the sake of clearer explanation. In reality, there are stabilisers, mobilisers and muscles that act in both roles. We can pretend that any ‘composite' muscle is split into a stabiliser and a mobiliser by extracting the appropriate type of muscle fibres (slow-twitch and fast-twitch respectively) into each of them. The functionality of the body would remain unchanged.

We have very little, if any, conscious control of the stabilisers. But stabilisers have two properties that are very useful. First, given their position with respect to joints, they can make the body structure really strong. Second, most of them are designed to stabilise/balance our body against outside force (usually the force of gravity). We can use both of these properties to our advantage.

Strong Structure
Let's look at the first point. When discussing muscle strength, there is a distinction made between a static and a dynamic strength. Static strength, when the muscle is locked in position, is greater than dynamic strength, when the muscle is expanding or contracting. Locking the body in a very strong static position may be interesting but is not very useful. Especially if any push just topples the whole structure over! This is where the second point comes in.

Dynamic Structure
Let's imagine you are standing on a steep hill, with one foot higher than the other and you are supporting a fairly heavy weight sliding at you from above. Suppose that you support it from underneath, with your arms above your head. You would naturally try to let the weight pass through your body into the rear foot, using the front leg to stabilise yourself against the hill. If the weight were to wobble, you would just adjust your arms and body underneath to keep the weight passing to the rear foot. It would not require any (significant) mental effort and, unless the wobble took the weight too far from your base, not any (significant) extra physical effort. Your stabilisers would perform any adjustments needed automatically, with the mobilisers acting in unison.

Now let's tilt the hill so that the ground underneath becomes horizontal and the weight you were supporting is now represented by a push from someone in front of you. There will be two likely changes to your behaviour. First, you would have to adjust your posture because gravity now acts in a vertical direction. Second (and here I am asking you to pretend you are a beginner again, before you had all that extensive training), because your stabilisers now act in a different direction from the push, you will use your mobilisers to resist the push. In order to stop the push, you will start pushing back with the same force. If your adversary starts changing the direction of his push, there will be nothing automatic in your response! So if you could somehow get your body to act as if the push was a result of a force of gravity, you could relax and let your automatic responses neutralise the push for you. My first Taijiquan teacher told us once to "make gravity your friend". Unfortunately, I had no idea what he was talking about at that time!

What is Zhan Zhuang
Zhan Zhuang is often translated as Pole Standing. It is a name that refers to a number of stance practices in which the body is kept essentially still and mostly upright, though there are some stances where the spine is not vertical. The purpose of these exercises is to become aware of the stabilisers and then gain some measure of control over them.

The first task is to feel how the body acts against gravity. The best way to do that is to stand and feel (observe), in other words - Zhan Zhuang. There are a number of positions to produce different effects on the body but the most popular one is to stand with arms as if embracing a large ball in front of the chest. To isolate the stabilisers, you must relax the mobilisers. Unfortunately, the mobilisers will interfere, as most people, it seems, from a fairly early age will start (mis)using mobilisers to take on the task of stabilising the body. Because you can't really feel the stabilisers, you must try to relax all muscles. As far as your perception is concerned, mobilisers are all the muscles you are aware of. That is, by the way, why my teacher (and yours probably, too) used to say "do not use any muscles". So the first task really is re-educating the body to use the stabilisers. The next one is to try to integrate body's movement to use stabilisers against any resistance that is encountered, as if acting against gravity. This will give you the basis of whole-body strength. As the Taiji classics say, "essential hardness comes from essential softness". Eventually, your arms and body will become very heavy to the touch. Further training will be needed to be able to use the body in a natural way and especially to integrate the mobilisers and fascia (connective fibrous tissue) in issuing of strength (fali or fajing) but that is not the role of Zhan Zhuang any more."

by Karl Koskuba
http://www.yiquan.org.uk/art-pom1.html

David

Last edited by dps : 06-03-2009 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:52 AM   #75
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Re: The same basic teaching

Also,


"What I have been describing is how to gain control over muscles that we are not even aware of. Clearly, any movement using stabilisers must seem powered by something else than muscles. In Chinese culture, qi is a cause of movement so it is not surprising that the kind of movement I've been describing would be attributed to qi. We have seen how this ‘qi' is trained by the mind (awareness) and activated by the mind. Sometimes ‘bone breathing' or ‘bone squeezing' methods are used to ‘congeal qi into bones'. This is just another way of gaining awareness of the deep muscular structures. Awareness of the stabilisers is felt like a tightness round the bones. Due to the structure of slow-twitch fibres, deliberate use of stabilisers produces more heat than is usual. This can be felt and it is different from a similar, but smaller, effect in the skin brought about by relaxation. Both of these effects, but especially the heat produced deeper in the body, are often taken as a sign of increased ‘qi' flow."

by Karel Koskuba
http://www.yiquan.org.uk/art-pom1.html

David

Last edited by dps : 06-03-2009 at 09:54 AM.
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