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Old 04-01-2009, 08:20 PM   #51
Ketsan
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
And this, my friends, is a technique known as passive-aggressiveness. "Oh, I wasn't doing anything, it's all youuuuuu." Where's your power, Alex? You're striving to prove that you have control overr people, but so far it looks like nothing but talk to me. Even if it weren't, is it really something to be proud of? "Hey, lookit me, I excel at pushing people's buttons!" Spiritual development fares poorly when it's only a shoddy cloak for manipulative behavior.
One of us is ranting.
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:23 PM   #52
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

Philip I am curious as to what dojo you currently train at.

Lyle Laizure
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:23 PM   #53
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Actually I got the idea from Musashi, from what I understand it was a common strategy of his. Turning up hours late, violating etiquette. I think I read somewhere that he stated that he was only an average swordsman, but an excellent strategist.

That aside, really I was just outlining that life or death can hang on your fudoshin which is IMO a product of spiritual training. If your opponent can take your mind, physical defeat is certain.

I can't realistically think of a situation where provoking an attack is a good idea though, not in this day and age. For one thing it seems a good way of getting shot or stabbed.
Ah, read the same book. I think it sounds good on paper but trickier in practice. Much like getting in a fight with someone and simply continuing to dodge your attacker until they get tired and presto you win

A friend of mine was big on the distraction thing, when she did taekwondo sparing she'd slap his fingers in the air stop her foot on the ground and shout a lot. I remember seeing one match where she was trying that and her opponent charged in and knocked her out.
I think it has it's pro's but like waiting until someone is tired, one shouldn't count on it.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 04-01-2009, 11:06 PM   #54
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
Philip I am curious as to what dojo you currently train at.
My list was a combination of things I have experienced in going to different dojos and seminars. The dojo I go to now, is small, private, elite, snobby place where good personal hygiene is a demand. I post that after a night of beers after class. Yea, it was crude in subject. But never the less any truer.
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Old 04-02-2009, 06:31 AM   #55
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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One of us is ranting.
One of us is name-calling. Is that proper behavior for this forum?
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Old 04-02-2009, 06:49 AM   #56
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Aaron Hillock wrote: View Post
Arg.... why does it seem threads get derailed by "spiritual" aikido
Ok, switch "spiritual" for "psychological" since most eastern spirituality is in fact largely psychology. Call it mushin or "being in the zone" if you're not there when you need to be and the other guy is, you're dead, even if you're technically vastly superior to him.
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Old 04-02-2009, 07:42 AM   #57
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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One of us is name-calling. Is that proper behavior for this forum?
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Old 04-02-2009, 07:58 AM   #58
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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I'm not prone to them myself, but that's not what I have been told a "panic attack" is. AFAIK a "panic attack" is a period of heightened anxiety that is sudden and that either has no cause, or is all out of proportion with whatever caused it (e.g., a panic reaction at not having enough quarters for the laundry, or something like that). It doesn't have anything to do with your response to a situation of real threat.

I also don't see the "spiritual" connection. There are all kinds of spiritual practices, most of which are probably not going to be particularly helpful in a situation of real threat -- yet they are authentically spiritual practices. Likewise, there are many other practices, physical and mental, that have not a lick of spirituality to them, and that can teach people to respond quite well to threats.
Well I do suffer from panic attacks and I have been attacked in the street and panicked and I have arachnaphobia and I REALLY did used to panic if I saw a spider. Regardless of the stimulus the feeling is identical.

The spiritual connection is this: my meditation teacher's (a buddhist monk) relaxation technqiues are identical to the coping stratgies taught on a course my doctor sent me on.
And it doesn't matter what the stimulus the same techniques work to deal with it. I have a mantra I repeat to myself when I get anxious "Nothing has happened, stop fantasising."
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Old 04-02-2009, 09:01 AM   #59
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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I have a mantra I repeat to myself when I get anxious "Nothing has happened, stop fantasising."
But isn't that kind of the point? Is this particular strategy likely to be as effective when something HAS happened? In the case of an irrational panic response to something out of proportion, the challenge, I would think, is to get the less logical parts of your brain to recognize that there is no real threat and that no action is needed, and that the only danger comes from within yourself. You might understandably want to focus on things like calming yourself down, taking some time to slow your thoughts and breathing and getting your body OUT of any kind of a 'fight or flight' state, etc. (although it still seems arguable what is really spiritual about that, but I guess to some people it might be; that's fine -- what you call it is up to you).
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Old 04-02-2009, 12:18 PM   #60
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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You and Mary sound like Neil Mick and Mike Sigum

Interesting mantra "nothing has happened". Reminds me of something I read in Way of Aikido, The: Life Lessons from an American Sensei (one of my favorite books).
Mentions something like a mantra. When going for a test one says to them self upon entering the room 'I own this room'. Opening the test 'I own this test' etc.. Hope I'm not misquoting. I've tried it and actually find it very centering and calming.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
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If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 04-02-2009, 01:59 PM   #61
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Well I do suffer from panic attacks and I have been attacked in the street and panicked and I have arachnaphobia and I REALLY did used to panic if I saw a spider. Regardless of the stimulus the feeling is identical.
If you say so. I guess I'm just not the panicky type.

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The spiritual connection is this: my meditation teacher's (a buddhist monk) relaxation technqiues are identical to the coping stratgies taught on a course my doctor sent me on.
And it doesn't matter what the stimulus the same techniques work to deal with it. I have a mantra I repeat to myself when I get anxious "Nothing has happened, stop fantasising."
That's great, but I think you're making a logical error. Because you were taught a relaxation technique by a person who happens to follow a spiritual discipline, you believe that "relaxation techniques" are spiritual practices. That's not so. Your teacher's may be. Yours aren't, necessarily -- they could be, but just being taught an esoteric practice by a monk does not make it a spiritual practice for you. Beyond that, though, there are any number of relaxation techniques that do not have any spiritual basis whatsoever.
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Old 04-02-2009, 03:48 PM   #62
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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If you say so. I guess I'm just not the panicky type.

That's great, but I think you're making a logical error. Because you were taught a relaxation technique by a person who happens to follow a spiritual discipline, you believe that "relaxation techniques" are spiritual practices. That's not so. Your teacher's may be. Yours aren't, necessarily -- they could be, but just being taught an esoteric practice by a monk does not make it a spiritual practice for you. Beyond that, though, there are any number of relaxation techniques that do not have any spiritual basis whatsoever.
I believe any process that changes you as a person is a spiritual process. It's not about the basis of the process, it's the effect.

Last edited by Ketsan : 04-02-2009 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 04-02-2009, 04:44 PM   #63
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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But isn't that kind of the point? Is this particular strategy likely to be as effective when something HAS happened? In the case of an irrational panic response to something out of proportion, the challenge, I would think, is to get the less logical parts of your brain to recognize that there is no real threat and that no action is needed, and that the only danger comes from within yourself. You might understandably want to focus on things like calming yourself down, taking some time to slow your thoughts and breathing and getting your body OUT of any kind of a 'fight or flight' state, etc. (although it still seems arguable what is really spiritual about that, but I guess to some people it might be; that's fine -- what you call it is up to you).
Now that I have coping mechanisms in place I'm as steady as a rock. The coping mechanisms have produced a spiritual change in me. Yes I wobble now and then, but I'm actually cooler under pressure than most people are. I can seperate myself out from my thoughts if that makes sense.
That's something I picked up from my meditation teacher, I think. It just occurs to me that if I'm sitting and meditating and I'm watching thoughts go through my skull the thing doing the watching is seperate from the thoughts. Therefore I am not my thoughts.
So saying "Nothing is happening, stop fantasising" is me seperating myself out from my fearful thoughts and putting myself in the moment rather than the day dreams I'm having.
So the coping mechanisms/relaxation techniques, be they spiritual in and of themselves or not have produced a spiritual realisation that I find useful and therefore I lable them as spiritual.

Or I'm just insane.

Last edited by Ketsan : 04-02-2009 at 04:44 PM. Reason: I goofed
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Old 04-02-2009, 09:08 PM   #64
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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I believe any process that changes you as a person is a spiritual process. It's not about the basis of the process, it's the effect.
I'm not going to argue with you about your definitions; I'm just pretty sure you're using a different definition of "spiritual process" than most people. Other considerations aside, people can undergo processes that change them for the worse. Do you consider that a "spiritual process" also?
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Old 04-03-2009, 05:05 AM   #65
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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I'm not going to argue with you about your definitions; I'm just pretty sure you're using a different definition of "spiritual process" than most people. Other considerations aside, people can undergo processes that change them for the worse. Do you consider that a "spiritual process" also?
Yep.
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Old 04-03-2009, 08:17 AM   #66
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Yep.
So if (for example) someone participates in a mass killing, and thereby becomes indifferent to (or even excited by) the act of chipping people to bits with a machete, that's a "spiritual process"?
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Old 04-03-2009, 09:22 AM   #67
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

Lots of arguing over the definition of "spiritual process," no?

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Old 04-03-2009, 11:35 AM   #68
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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So if (for example) someone participates in a mass killing, and thereby becomes indifferent to (or even excited by) the act of chipping people to bits with a machete, that's a "spiritual process"?
Yep.
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Old 04-03-2009, 12:10 PM   #69
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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So if (for example) someone participates in a mass killing, and thereby becomes indifferent to (or even excited by) the act of chipping people to bits with a machete, that's a "spiritual process"?
Funnily enough, in THAT example, I actually do feel like that's a 'spiritual' change (a spiritual destruction or something), while I didn't see it with the 'deep breathing to calm yourself' type examples...

But 'spiritual' is probably one of the most subjective ideas there are... I doubt it really gives much to try to define it.
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Old 04-03-2009, 12:11 PM   #70
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

A follow up to my first post.....training in Aikido includes not only practice in technique but in refining the spirit, the heart, the character. This is the meaning of the do. We are not just machines that execute movements on order, we are human beings first, and Aikido practicioners second. If values such as cleanliness, courtesy, and respect are not practiced in even the short time we are in the dojo, then it just isn't budo. This isn't just about "connecting to the universe",which is what many seem to believe the spiritual side of Aikido is all about, but this is what budo is - a true warrior is one of virtue. Ask any member who has served in the military, a marine, soldier, airman, or sailor how important a value such as cleanliness is in the military, and listen to what they have to say. Ask them how many hours a day they have spent cleaning, or ask them how many times they hear the words "Honor, courage, and commitment". How can we stand here and have claim to any knowledge of budo without these virtues? Virtues which are not only basic to our contemporary warriors, but which have been set forth in the light of its religious and cultural influences. To say we practice Aikido without them is to only attempt to imitate its shadow.

Last edited by John Matsushima : 04-03-2009 at 12:14 PM.

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Old 04-03-2009, 01:52 PM   #71
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Funnily enough, in THAT example, I actually do feel like that's a 'spiritual' change (a spiritual destruction or something), while I didn't see it with the 'deep breathing to calm yourself' type examples...

But 'spiritual' is probably one of the most subjective ideas there are... I doubt it really gives much to try to define it.
Spirit, being a product of energy, can't be destroyed. Basic physics.


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Old 04-03-2009, 02:35 PM   #72
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

So people should just give up on the whole 'spiritual growth' thing, eh? .

Although, if really you want to be anal about your analogy (which I'm sure we all do ! ), I could remind you that energy can be transformed from one form to another... so if spiritual destruction is accompanied by an increase of, say, 'evil' (another form of 'energy', right?), then your psychic thermodynamics remains self-consistent .
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Old 04-03-2009, 03:21 PM   #73
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

Well...this is where y'all bring out the boffer bats (or the bokken) and start whaling on me and yellling, "Mary, shut UP!" But does "spirit" have anything to do with "spirituality"? I think of "spirituality" as a connection with the divine, whether that be Allah or the kami or Jesus or the god in you. The usage of "spirit" in the martial arts, OTOH, has always given me the sense that it was a translation of a word that referred to a particular attitude and that the original had no connotations of the sacred. So, am I wrong about that?

BTW Alex: "yep". Okay. So only people who incorporate a "spiritual process" in their training can be effective in a real-life self-defense situation. By that reasoning, a genocidaire should be the best thing on legs when it comes to facing an attack, not so?
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Old 04-03-2009, 03:25 PM   #74
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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[...] If values such as cleanliness, courtesy, and respect are not practiced in even the short time we are in the dojo, then it just isn't budo. This isn't just about "connecting to the universe",which is what many seem to believe the spiritual side of Aikido is all about, but this is what budo is - a true warrior is one of virtue. Ask any member who has served in the military, a marine, soldier, airman, or sailor how important a value such as cleanliness is in the military, and listen to what they have to say. Ask them how many hours a day they have spent cleaning, or ask them how many times they hear the words "Honor, courage, and commitment". How can we stand here and have claim to any knowledge of budo without these virtues? Virtues which are not only basic to our contemporary warriors, but which have been set forth in the light of its religious and cultural influences. To say we practice Aikido without them is to only attempt to imitate its shadow.
While in the Army, the importance of hygiene, cleanliness, preventative maintenance, and so forth, were very much emphasized. I was also never so filthy for such extensive periods of time than when I was in the Army.

When warriors train in close quarters, we ask for good hygiene. It is also true that warriors should have no aversion to filth or anything else of this world, lest that aversion affect their ability to do what needs to be done.

There is no dilemma.

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Old 04-03-2009, 03:47 PM   #75
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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So people should just give up on the whole 'spiritual growth' thing, eh?
What is "spiritual growt"?

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Although, if really you want to be anal about your analogy (which I'm sure we all do ! ), I could remind you that energy can be transformed from one form to another... so if spiritual destruction is accompanied by an increase of, say, 'evil' (another form of 'energy', right?), then your psychic thermodynamics remains self-consistent .
Again: there's no spiritual 'destruction', Change, transformation..., maybe. Increase of 'evil' is change but the spirit is not destroyed. For that you have to die.

OTOH, what is 'good' and what is 'evil' depends on the individual (education, culture, society, religion...). Aikido is about the universe, the nature; nature is beyond human constructs like "good" and "evil".

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