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Old 04-01-2009, 07:19 AM   #26
Ketsan
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Aaron Hillock wrote: View Post
....right
Tell me, how good do you think your technical skills will serve you during a panic attack?
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:29 AM   #27
Ketsan
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Really? Is that so?
Yeah I see people panicing in gradings, never mind in fights. I bet I could annoy just about any martial artist to the point they would loose their temper and attack me and in so doing I would have put them in a state where all their training is liable to go flying out of the window, allowing me to win.

The exception to this is the martial artists that take their spirtual training seriously because they have a grip on themselves.

Last edited by Ketsan : 04-01-2009 at 07:30 AM. Reason: missed a comma
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:35 AM   #28
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
On the same vein it is not a widely spread goal to give a farting rendition of toccata and fugues in re minor each time one does step onto the mat. But as the saying goes crap happens.
Disclaimer: It's early; I'm tired; and this is the first thing I've read all day.

Suddenly I'm reminded of the grand old International Crepitation Contest between Lord Windesmere of Whopping Foghole and the upstart from Australia, Paul Boomer! A fine contest the likes of which haven't been seen (or heard) in years!
It was a comedy album and an integral part of my upbringing as a child and required listening for my closest friends.
...and now I have a new goal in life: to make Bach proud with my, um, "trumpeting" ability!

Last edited by mathewjgano : 04-01-2009 at 07:40 AM.

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Old 04-01-2009, 08:12 AM   #29
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
The exception to this is the martial artists that take their spirtual training seriously because they have a grip on themselves.
I still fail to see that calm and self-control are the exclusive property of spiritual training.
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:32 AM   #30
Ketsan
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
I still fail to see that calm and self-control are the exclusive property of spiritual training.
If you embark on developing your mental relaxation and self-control you are embarking on spiritual training.
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:53 AM   #31
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Tell me, how good do you think your technical skills will serve you during a panic attack?
What does training for technique (as opposed to training for spiritual whatever have to do with having "panic attacks" (which, themselves, have nothing to do with panicking in a self-defense situation)?
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:57 AM   #32
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Yeah I see people panicing in gradings, never mind in fights. I bet I could annoy just about any martial artist to the point they would loose their temper and attack me and in so doing I would have put them in a state where all their training is liable to go flying out of the window, allowing me to win.

The exception to this is the martial artists that take their spirtual training seriously because they have a grip on themselves.
...or people (whether martial artists or not) who are grownups and not hormone-enslaved adolescents, who have jobs and lives and have been taught to deal with AnnoyingMan by experts. Ain't nothin' "spiritual" about it, just common sense and refusing to play your sandbox games. How is it that you're so confident of your ability to get up people's noses to the point of "allowing [you] to win", anyway? Had considerable practice at it, have you? I'd just laugh at you if you tried to start with me; where's your power over me?
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:53 AM   #33
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

Perhaps a man who is prone to annoying people into attacking him might not be as far along in his spiritual development as he might think.
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:32 AM   #34
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
Perhaps a man who is prone to annoying people into attacking him might not be as far along in his spiritual development as he might think.
Well, I'm sure the sophists would agree! ...poor Socrates (totally pronounced "So Crates")!

Last edited by mathewjgano : 04-01-2009 at 10:36 AM.

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Old 04-01-2009, 11:00 AM   #35
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

And now that I've tried my comedy routine...
I think Alex's point seems clear enough: controlling ones own mind is a crucial factor in not coming unraveled (i.e. maintaining focus) under pressure. Panic attacks are an extreme form of pressure and, as I've come to understand them, are very much a scattering of the mind...like going eight directions at once with the net result being petrification...deer in the headlights.
Of course, that's just one example of how the mind might need some practice at generating focus (which to me implies a degree of calm). Distractions like the ukemi-asm (copyright 2009) are mild examples. In either case, the mind is distracted from the purpose of the moment.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 04-01-2009 at 11:02 AM.

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Old 04-01-2009, 11:43 AM   #36
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
And now that I've tried my comedy routine...
I think Alex's point seems clear enough: controlling ones own mind is a crucial factor in not coming unraveled (i.e. maintaining focus) under pressure. Panic attacks are an extreme form of pressure and, as I've come to understand them, are very much a scattering of the mind...like going eight directions at once with the net result being petrification...deer in the headlights.
I'm not prone to them myself, but that's not what I have been told a "panic attack" is. AFAIK a "panic attack" is a period of heightened anxiety that is sudden and that either has no cause, or is all out of proportion with whatever caused it (e.g., a panic reaction at not having enough quarters for the laundry, or something like that). It doesn't have anything to do with your response to a situation of real threat.

I also don't see the "spiritual" connection. There are all kinds of spiritual practices, most of which are probably not going to be particularly helpful in a situation of real threat -- yet they are authentically spiritual practices. Likewise, there are many other practices, physical and mental, that have not a lick of spirituality to them, and that can teach people to respond quite well to threats.
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Old 04-01-2009, 11:56 AM   #37
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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....right
Has a pretty good point

If you're hungry, keep moving.
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If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 04-01-2009, 12:29 PM   #38
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I'm not prone to them myself, but that's not what I have been told a "panic attack" is. AFAIK a "panic attack" is a period of heightened anxiety that is sudden and that either has no cause, or is all out of proportion with whatever caused it (e.g., a panic reaction at not having enough quarters for the laundry, or something like that). It doesn't have anything to do with your response to a situation of real threat.
My sense of them is that they are situations in which any number of things can suddenly seem threatening (regardless of the reason). Hence the "panic" part of the equation. I've never known someone to panic without there being some form of threat, real or perceived, and that's why it seems to relate to me. Panic attacks aren't the point though, it's the idea of controling the mind in the face of perceived threat. In the same way a person experiencing these "attacks" can practice breathing exercises, etc. to lessen this distraction from the tasks at hand (e.g. enjoying a movie with a friend, buying milk, etc.), so too can a person practice the same exercises to remain calm in the face of other, more physical threats.

Quote:
I also don't see the "spiritual" connection. There are all kinds of spiritual practices, most of which are probably not going to be particularly helpful in a situation of real threat -- yet they are authentically spiritual practices. Likewise, there are many other practices, physical and mental, that have not a lick of spirituality to them, and that can teach people to respond quite well to threats.
I think "spiritual" might have been meant to invoke a sense of the "deeper" or otherwise more personal issues we might have which can affect our responses. This isn't to say that people who don't think of their training as spiritual are lacking in these abilities...of course I am presuming to know someone else's meaning...

Last edited by mathewjgano : 04-01-2009 at 12:33 PM.

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Old 04-01-2009, 12:31 PM   #39
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I'm not prone to them myself, but that's not what I have been told a "panic attack" is. AFAIK a "panic attack" is a period of heightened anxiety that is sudden and that either has no cause, or is all out of proportion with whatever caused it (e.g., a panic reaction at not having enough quarters for the laundry, or something like that). It doesn't have anything to do with your response to a situation of real threat.

I also don't see the "spiritual" connection. There are all kinds of spiritual practices, most of which are probably not going to be particularly helpful in a situation of real threat -- yet they are authentically spiritual practices. Likewise, there are many other practices, physical and mental, that have not a lick of spirituality to them, and that can teach people to respond quite well to threats.
Disagree. I think you might be getting wrapped around a technical idea of the idea.

A panic attack is just that. You suddenly panic, the cause of why you panic could vary greatly. Usually it's something serious (I would imagine) like being corndered by a physically intimidating person, crashing ones car, starting to drown. It could probably also be something that seems minute to us like forgetting a technique, not having enough quarters for laundry etc.. It's people brought out of their comfort level.
I've been practicing swimming with 10 and 20 pound brick. Quite a few times I've went under. At first I paniced and dropped it. Afterwards I wasn't as stressed out by near drowning and now when I sink I don't panic.


I agree about the spiritual connection though. Thinking your all zen and in touch with yourself is great but like the saying goes
'You don't rise to the level of your expectations you drop to the level of your training'.
If you don't practice your techniqe under stressful conditions (with your heart rate going, field of view narrowed etc.) when one is IN that situation they may not perform as well as they assumed they would. I've actually seen that happen a lot.

Alex,
Quote:
I bet I could annoy just about any martial artist to the point they would loose their temper and attack me and in so doing I would have put them in a state where all their training is liable to go flying out of the window, allowing me to win.
Do you actually believe this??

No offense but if you were serious then that's a horrible mindset when it comes to self defense. Yikes. That kinda thinking is how martial artists get seriously injured or killed man.

Last edited by Guilty Spark : 04-01-2009 at 12:33 PM.

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If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 04-01-2009, 01:01 PM   #40
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

Well, I do agree that having poor personal hygiene is annoying/disrespectful and so is wearing a dirty gi. However, as far as farting or burping go, some people just do not have as much control over certain bodily functions as others do, especially as we age. Passing gas happens often during opening stretches. No one intends for this to happen...it just happens with the onset of vigorous exercise. It happens during ukemi for the same reason. This sort of thing must be understood in the keikoba/dojo so if it happens, it is instantly forgotten. People can't help having indigestion or other gastrointestinal functions. Now, if everyone on the mat starts giggling when it does occur...that is unacceptable.

As far as this crosstalk about "spiritual" training...What is the difference between hard training in technique and "spiritual" training? To me, they are one and the same. One can't happen without the other. Only through consistent, hard practice is one going to be able to discover any "spiritual" aspects of the art. Anything less is just playing.
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Old 04-01-2009, 01:38 PM   #41
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

do you know how hard it is to not do #1 when you are doing a split stretch? or #2 when you get drill into the floor with a good koshi? now, if you practice on the beach, grass, backyard among live-stock, snow (god forbid!), and so on, it would be kinda hard to worry about hygiene and stuffs like that. now, if i am in a fight on the street and get someone in one of those locks, where my derriere next to my opponent face and all of my limbs are busy, and I have #1 available, I would not hesitate to use it to speed up the process of choking the bugger out.

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Old 04-01-2009, 03:09 PM   #42
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

I'm appalled that not enough posters are requesting a vid with sound ;
Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
... On the same vein it is not a widely spread goal to give a farting rendition of toccata and fugues in re minor each time one does step onto the mat.
Vid plzkthks ... with SOUND.

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Yeah I see people panicing in gradings, never mind in fights. I bet I could annoy just about any martial artist to the point they would loose their temper and attack me and in so doing I would have put them in a state where all their training is liable to go flying out of the window, allowing me to win.

The exception to this is the martial artists that take their spirtual training seriously because they have a grip on themselves.
Other, more effective exception : people who train while in that same angry or panicked state ... training techniques and attitude which work in that state. I'm of the opinion that not all (nor most) Aikido standard waza do work in that state.
My point is not to try to avoid the state, accept it and train within it, at least sometimes.
DriftI'm also sure Ueshiba was familiar with it, hence broken hipped judoka.)
edit: oh. : & ( = . Interesting.
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Old 04-01-2009, 03:11 PM   #43
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
What does training for technique (as opposed to training for spiritual whatever have to do with having "panic attacks" (which, themselves, have nothing to do with panicking in a self-defense situation)?
Well I'd liken panicking in a self defence situation to a panic attack, but that's just me.
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Old 04-01-2009, 03:14 PM   #44
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
Perhaps a man who is prone to annoying people into attacking him might not be as far along in his spiritual development as he might think.
I couldn't agree more.
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Old 04-01-2009, 03:40 PM   #45
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Grant Wagar wrote: View Post
Alex,

Do you actually believe this??

No offense but if you were serious then that's a horrible mindset when it comes to self defense. Yikes. That kinda thinking is how martial artists get seriously injured or killed man.
Actually I got the idea from Musashi, from what I understand it was a common strategy of his. Turning up hours late, violating etiquette. I think I read somewhere that he stated that he was only an average swordsman, but an excellent strategist.

That aside, really I was just outlining that life or death can hang on your fudoshin which is IMO a product of spiritual training. If your opponent can take your mind, physical defeat is certain.

I can't realistically think of a situation where provoking an attack is a good idea though, not in this day and age. For one thing it seems a good way of getting shot or stabbed.
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Old 04-01-2009, 03:44 PM   #46
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
...or people (whether martial artists or not) who are grownups and not hormone-enslaved adolescents, who have jobs and lives and have been taught to deal with AnnoyingMan by experts. Ain't nothin' "spiritual" about it, just common sense and refusing to play your sandbox games. How is it that you're so confident of your ability to get up people's noses to the point of "allowing [you] to win", anyway? Had considerable practice at it, have you? I'd just laugh at you if you tried to start with me; where's your power over me?
Looks like I've already started annoying you, and I wasn't even trying! Talk about taking things personally!
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Old 04-01-2009, 04:01 PM   #47
Ketsan
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
I'm appalled that not enough posters are requesting a vid with sound ;

Vid plzkthks ... with SOUND.

Other, more effective exception : people who train while in that same angry or panicked state ... training techniques and attitude which work in that state. I'm of the opinion that not all (nor most) Aikido standard waza do work in that state.
My point is not to try to avoid the state, accept it and train within it, at least sometimes.
DriftI'm also sure Ueshiba was familiar with it, hence broken hipped judoka.)
edit: oh. : & ( = . Interesting.
Yeah I think there's definately something more than meets the eye to O-Sensei stating that practice should take place in a joyful atmosphere.
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:03 PM   #48
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Well I'd liken panicking in a self defence situation to a panic attack, but that's just me.
Yeah, it is just you. You're humpty-dumpying the term "panic attack", which makes it useless in any sort of meaningful discourse.
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:10 PM   #49
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

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Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Looks like I've already started annoying you, and I wasn't even trying! Talk about taking things personally!
And this, my friends, is a technique known as passive-aggressiveness. "Oh, I wasn't doing anything, it's all youuuuuu." Where's your power, Alex? You're striving to prove that you have control overr people, but so far it looks like nothing but talk to me. Even if it weren't, is it really something to be proud of? "Hey, lookit me, I excel at pushing people's buttons!" Spiritual development fares poorly when it's only a shoddy cloak for manipulative behavior.
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:53 PM   #50
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Re: Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class

Arg.... why does it seem threads get derailed by "spiritual" aikido
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