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Old 04-02-2009, 05:52 AM   #26
Rodger
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

Quote:
I still have 3 more months to get this...that is if I want to keep to my testing schedule.
My advice would be forget about a testing schedule. Enjoy the process and everything will take care of it's self.

It's a long journey if you only concentrate on the end you will miss all the scenery along the way.
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Old 04-02-2009, 12:51 PM   #27
dalen7
 
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

Quote:
Rodger Pyle wrote: View Post
My advice would be forget about a testing schedule. Enjoy the process and everything will take care of it's self.

It's a long journey if you only concentrate on the end you will miss all the scenery along the way.
Thanks, and I understand the point...but its just my own personal goal that I have set up for various reasons.

I have gone from training twice a week to 4 times a week. (Thanks for the new opportunity to train in the satellite dojo in the next city.)

My main goal is simply to get as far as I can in truly understanding the hows, whys, and why nots of Aikido before I leave this country.
(Truth, that time may not be far off, even if its a couple more years.)

When I move I want to be confident and what I have learned here, so that whatever I do once I leave will make for a smooth transition. I want what I learn here to stand on its own, so to speak.

The testing is just a mile stone marker, that I have set up, to realistically keep me on track to achieve this goal I have set up.
I have in my mind what I expect from each of the ranks that I test for...which may be a bit different than others. (Part of this is amazing learning in a language I truly cannot communicate fluently in...Hungarian.)

I have learned quite a bit about myself, ego, tenseness, etc.
This has been one introspective road for me, that i would not have had with another martial art.

Fact is, Aikido is far from what I naturally gravitate toward, and has been the most challenging, yet rewarding in terms of 'inner growth'.
My wife actually chose it, I had her look at WingChun, Thai Box, etc., and wanted to see what she thought, and Aikido appealed to her more. (Which may seem logical for a lady, as typically they are not into violent sports and like the idea of harmony, spirituality, etc.)

So my wife got me in Aikido and I have made it my goal to get something out of it while here in Hungary...again, more than just something, but a strong enough foundation that I can weave my way around all the techniques that are within my testing schedule.

Sorry for the lengthy post...just thought I would share.

peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 04-02-2009 at 12:55 PM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 04-02-2009, 03:09 PM   #28
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

Hey Dalen, no need to explain having a goal. I hope you achieve it!

B,
R

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Old 04-02-2009, 06:53 PM   #29
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hey Dalen, no need to explain having a goal. I hope you achieve it!

B,
R
Thanks Ron!

Peace

dAlen

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Old 04-03-2009, 11:52 PM   #30
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

I was going to say 3/4 bodyweight, but I thought better of it and tried to say 95lb.
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Old 05-13-2009, 02:28 AM   #31
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

Hi Dalen
Koshinage is actually not that hard. No pun intended.
One of the previous posters describes the exercise with a partner on all fours. Practise that before attempting koshinage. It learns your body how to behave, how to turn.

Point of warning: never ever extend your arm and try to roll. Also do not do breakfall with your other arm. Injuries can happen quite easily and cause permanent damage to shoulder ligaments. Unfortenately, I have witnessed such an event and the guy involved tore three ligaments

As your partner flips you over, keep firm grip with your front arm around your partners arm, kick your back leg over yourself. Once turned over try to make contact with your feet first (front of your feet, not heel). You can easily practise this when your partner slowly flips you over. You will not fall hard at all. You'll find that you can control much of the throw.

Freefall with kote gaeshi (or shiho nage) will prove much more of a challenge...but that's not until later

safe practise
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Old 05-26-2009, 03:36 PM   #32
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Freefall with kote gaeshi (or shiho nage) will prove much more of a challenge...but that's not until later

safe practise
thanks for the post...we will have to see how all this pans out.
The one guy I practice with basically loads me on his back and its just so strange to be high up flipping over for me. lol

As for kotegaeshi free fall, that is something i would be interested in getting more familiar with, as its not as 'high' as koshinage, but I suppose from what your saying dont let that deceive me as its a bit more tricky than koshinage.

Im a bit confused about landing on feet first as it seems to go against how I currently understand things. [dont get me wrong, Im trying to picture it.]

I have seen koshinage done with another person where its closer to the ground and not loaded up high on the back. [technically your not supposed to load on the back how I understand it.]

Either way, Im trying to work through this, got a better hand of it, but honestly, its not second nature yet, and Im by far not comfortable...Im still landing improperly on my forearm despite trying to reach out...habit I suppose.

Practice, practice, and more practice.

Peace

dAlen

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Old 05-27-2009, 03:12 AM   #33
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

The height difference really is not an issue

The big difference between the both is that koshinage allows you to stay close to tori (the turning point is automatically close to your center). Little effort/technique is required on your side to roll and fall.

In kote gaeshi the turning point is your wrist and you will have to throw your body around it yourself. This takes much initiative and more technique to do in a controlled manner. You can safely learn to get control over your body turn doing koshinage. So, in order to safely practise start with koshinage until you feel comfortable and more importantly you feel you have control over your body turn and fall.

It is all about learning how to control/turn your body. And doing that safely.
Once you get the hang of it, it is awesome to 'get thrown' in koshinage and be on your feet waiting for more, much to tori's surprise
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Old 05-27-2009, 07:32 AM   #34
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Once you get the hang of it, it is awesome to 'get thrown' in koshinage and be on your feet waiting for more, much to tori's surprise
If your ever in Hungary, stop by...your enthusiasm for something Im petrified of has sparked my interest.
Seriously, its good to see that it is possible to not only learn the technique but have fun at it. [suppose thats when you actually really have learned it]

Something that has kind of thrown me a bit, speaking of all this ukemi stuff, is my basic Mae ukemi. Somewhere in there, in trying to perfect my role, I now always roll and land at an angle...that is I go to do Mae ukemi and instead of landing directly in front my body shifts and I land diagonally to where I started...quite frustrating, especially when you see everyone else doing it effortlessly around you. [and embarrassing after 2 years...though good to let the ego suffer. lol]

Its like when my feet are in the air, my legs have no control and flop me to one side, best way to describe it.

Anyway, if you have any thoughts on this, I would appreciate it.

Peace

dAlen

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Old 05-27-2009, 07:35 AM   #35
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post

Freefall with kote gaeshi (or shiho nage) will prove much more of a challenge...but that's not until later

safe practise
one other question...besides the effect [the show] of flipping oneself with kote gaeshi, is there a true benefit to this particular move. Im sure it goes best with ura, but still not convinced if you were on the pavement if you wouldnt just do what typically is done and just 'lay down' with it, for lack of a better term.

Peace

dAlen

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Old 05-27-2009, 08:25 AM   #36
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

Hi Dalen, it depends on the distance you have to travel. If the kuzushi point is close and directly behind you, you can just sit down on your butt, no issues.

But...if the kuzushi point is out in front of you, and shite is stepping or turning away, you will have more distance to cover...a high front fall may be your only option. Not all styles do that kind of throw for kotegaeshi however...so your milage may vary.

Best,
Ron (wait until someone does kotegaeshi combined with koshinage...now THAT will be a trip... )

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-27-2009, 08:36 AM   #37
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
(wait until someone does kotegaeshi combined with koshinage...now THAT will be a trip... )
I can only imagine!

- dAlen

p.s. that does clarify it for me...so used to doing things at moderate speed which gives uke time to adjust and just sit, vs. full speed where they would be forced to take an alternate route, so to speak.

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Old 05-27-2009, 08:52 AM   #38
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

Sometimes it's the speed that gets you, sometimes it's the distance, and sometimes it's both! Even if the kuzushi is to the rear, if shite cross steps all the way behind, the distance may be too far for you to get your butt down. The other thing that happens sometimes is that to reverse the throw, it is often good to turn into it, even when shite isn't requiring that movement. Turn into shite and strike, turn into shite and step behind for iriminage, etc. If you are turning in to reverse the throw, and shite is good, you still get thrown, but over your own hand, so to speak.

Best,
Ron

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Old 05-27-2009, 03:20 PM   #39
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

Another way to think about it is to build up slowly...

In my dojo we would have people practice sutemi by having nage hold uke's hand in a kotegaeshi, and uke would use that as a fulcrum upon which to jump over. If that's too much, there are ground sutemi drills which anyone familiar with judo could teach you, but as your comfort level increases, so too will your relaxation which will actually help all of that along.

But, at the end of the day, it just comes down to doing it. You might get hurt-- but you might trip walking down the street and roll your ankle. I still remember many moons ago, when I was too terrified to try a full sutemi. In a randori, someone koshi'd me, and I went over and landed without a problem.

I then proceeded to spend the next 30 seconds with jaw agape wondering what the hell had just happened, then I ran back in for more.

Start small, and work your way up. Then, when you're ready, it'll happen whether you think it should or not.

Hope this helps,
Nick
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:04 AM   #40
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

Quote:
Nick Porter wrote: View Post
Start small, and work your way up. Then, when you're ready, it'll happen whether you think it should or not.

Hope this helps,
Nick
It does help...thanks Nick.

Peace

dAlen

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Old 06-02-2009, 04:20 AM   #41
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
one other question...besides the effect [the show] of flipping oneself with kote gaeshi, is there a true benefit to this particular move. Im sure it goes best with ura, but still not convinced if you were on the pavement if you wouldnt just do what typically is done and just 'lay down' with it, for lack of a better term.

Peace

dAlen
In Aikido ukemi is an escape. At least in our style this is how we approach it. When asked for its effectiveness, you step away from practise and towards actual combat.
Whereas nage allows tori some room to execute his/her technique, in combat he would not
So in case tori applies much control in the lock and forces nage down, it is up to nage to decide what to do. Fall down on your back and run all different kinds of risk (kicked in the face, break shoulder) or try and get out of the lock by flipping his body.
The latter gives nage another change...hopefully.

We would opt for the latter

In practise however, think budo. Protect yourself mentally and physically. So in order to practise free fall, practise it safe and at your pace.

My teacher has tried to throw me in free fall with kote gaeshi and i simply rolled off backwards. Until I realised we were on the beach taking pictures Then I looks better to do a free fall

By the way: Hungary, I never been there, let alone practised Aikido there. Who knows what the future will bring? Years ago my teacher told me to start a dojo, perhaps he'll ask me to go to Hungary any time soon
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:09 AM   #42
Jonathan
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

Quote:
Either way, Im trying to work through this, got a better hand of it, but honestly, its not second nature yet, and Im by far not comfortable...Im still landing improperly on my forearm despite trying to reach out...habit I suppose.

Practice, practice, and more practice.
Usually, when I've seen my students landing on their elbows from a high breakfall it is because they are not allowing their body to relax while in the air. When I say relax I don't mean become noodly. You should be extending your energy outward as you fall, but without significant muscular tension. If you are tense as you fall, the force of nage's movements will not be dissipated by your ukemi and so you may over-rotate and land on your elbow (and sometimes on the point of your hip as well). Think of draping yourself over nage or winding yourself around nage's body during the throw; look at nage and reach for the floor with your free arm. And, as you say, practice, practice, practice.

Take 'er easy!

Jon.

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Old 06-02-2009, 03:50 PM   #43
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

We used to do this throw in my aikijitsu class. I haven't gotten into it in my aikido class yet as I am a new person. First thing is first, your partner should be able to support your weight and lower you with a fair amount of control if they know what they are doing. Your main goal is to relax (despite your instincts).

When we worked with people who weren't ready for a hip throw yet, we would bring them down and around our hips. In other words, instead of the person basically leaning straigh forward (more or less), if they take their right should to left knee (if you are going over their right hip) then it will bring you more around their hip instead of over it. It is a slightly different feeling, but it may be enough to gradually allow you to build up your confidence. As you get more comfy with that, then they can add more and more hip until you are getting your pilots license. Best of luck!
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Old 06-03-2009, 01:59 AM   #44
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

Thanks Tim, Johnathan, & Ashely for the comments.
Took another class recently at the neighboring [daughter] dojo where I get to practice Koshinage.

The instructor there had me jumping over this stackable bench type of thing used in gymnastics...he kept stacking it up, then had someone lay on it for me to go over...etc.

I got a bit more comfortable with that, then I did koshinage with him.
What seemed to help, and this is a bit odd from how I understood it...but when I landed on my side at the same time I was fine. [arm, side, legs, etc all hit same moment.]

We then proceeded do Koshinage one on one, being thrown from high. The only issue I encountered was that he said I was throwing myself to far away, and that I needed to land right beside Tori. When I did this, it was more like grabbing Toris gi and rolling over his back and really only giving a little push up to get my body to flip over itself as they rolled me over their back.

Either way I have to say its the first time I have done it without any pain...I suppose I said I got it before, truth is I have not had the opportunity to practice this move since the last time I mentioned. My practice partner had to stop Aikido classes due to work, and there are not really any suitable people at the 'daughter dojo' to practice this particular technique with as everyone is either not ranked or at 6th kyu. [though he tried to prep one 6th kyu to act as Tori...]

Again, thanks for all the feedback, suppose I will have to try to get as much practice as i can on this technique, I really wish our main dojo would cover it, but our space is small until the end of the month as our main place gets renovated. [cause I noticed the obvious difference in my comfort level in the gap that there was between practicing this move...but Im hoping a full class of Koshinage sticks with me to some degree.]

Had my two fingers have the skin come off of them...didnt notice till I was in seize and saw blood. [too focused on what I was doing.]
It could have been from to much rubbing on the hard gi when doing koshinage [as my left hand did not feel the same strength and control as the right], or it could have been the toris fingernails grazing my hand in jiu-waza afterwards, which i did recall he did - just didnt realize it did that much damage as to have my fingers swell up the next day...

Anyway...

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
A shout out [hello] to the guys/gal in my dojo now that I know you guys have found Aikiweb - and my post...

Last edited by dalen7 : 06-03-2009 at 02:05 AM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 06-03-2009, 10:34 AM   #45
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

Sounds like you are getting the hang of it bit by bit. I takes time to get comfortable with these things. I haven't been seriously thrown in 3 years, so I am sure that when I get to these techniques in aikido, I will be rusty myself!
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Old 06-05-2009, 07:46 AM   #46
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Hi Dalen
Koshinage is actually not that hard. No pun intended.
One of the previous posters describes the exercise with a partner on all fours. Practise that before attempting koshinage. It learns your body how to behave, how to turn.

Point of warning: never ever extend your arm and try to roll. Also do not do breakfall with your other arm. Injuries can happen quite easily and cause permanent damage to shoulder ligaments. Unfortenately, I have witnessed such an event and the guy involved tore three ligaments

As your partner flips you over, keep firm grip with your front arm around your partners arm, kick your back leg over yourself. Once turned over try to make contact with your feet first (front of your feet, not heel). You can easily practise this when your partner slowly flips you over. You will not fall hard at all. You'll find that you can control much of the throw.

Freefall with kote gaeshi (or shiho nage) will prove much more of a challenge...but that's not until later

safe practise
This was going to be my point dAlen, we are taught that grabbing on is ok but when the fall comes then break with your feet.... One point on this is when your legs hit the ground, try to spread them scissor fashion as when the impact comes it creates a very nasty crushing action on your balls if your legs are together , pretty much the type of thing that has a very quick learning curve... Good luck man

Kris
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Old 06-15-2009, 12:55 PM   #47
mari
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

And when you think you've practiced by yourself enough, get someone higher ranked, whom you trust, to throw you around with proper speed Then tweak your ukemi until you are totally comfortable taking the fall..
I still don't like koshinage from people that clearly are not comfortable with the technique but still want to finish with a throw and load me up high on their back and try to push the throw.. that's an injury waiting to happen on both sides.
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Old 06-17-2009, 08:05 PM   #48
Daniel Blanco
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

Hi Dalen, the only advice I can give is to relax into the throw close your eyes if you have to, dont fight or resist,just go with it, as soon as you feel the mat with any part of your body slap out quick, this will give you a even comfortable fall,hope this hepls
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Old 06-17-2009, 08:06 PM   #49
Daniel Blanco
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

hope this helps
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Old 07-08-2009, 10:53 AM   #50
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Re: Very {Extremely} frustrated with Koshinage Ukemi

Thank you Kris, Mariya, & Daniel for your comments.
Apologies for not answering sooner - have been off the board awhile it seems.

Everyone who has contributed to this thread has more than helped as far as Koshinage is concerned. [My test is this weekend, so we will see how it goes!] lol

Im actually more comfortable with the move now, but its one of those moves that would definitely benefit by having more ukes [different sizes] to practice the variations of the move on.

Hardest part is we have been in a smaller place the past few months due to renovations to the gym where we train... so practice has had its limitations.

Again, Thanks!

Peace,

Dalen

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