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Old 09-04-2009, 07:20 PM   #26
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Defending against edged weapons is inherently difficult. Offensively, not so much.

it all boils down to the OODA loop. Either your ahead of it (inside) or behind it.

I think it is difficult to train and gain experience to get ahead if you are behind and personally I think this is really what we should be training when dealing with hands or edged weapons. what to do if things go bad and we are behind in the process and how to regain the iniative.

This is what we spend our time in the Army (US) when training combatives.

Knife as a backup weapon is fine and it can help you get ahead of the loop again and can help you terminate the fight.

Knife paradigms typically deal with either strictly offensive measures (ahead of the loop) which is pretty easy actually in applciation. Or the deal with behind the loop.

However, the behind the loop training you see it is very difficult for the guy to get back ahead and most folks don't really know or understand how to train this and it results in folks backing away trying to keep distance as they get cut over and over.

If they pull the a knife and they are behind, the typically try to keep that distance and start playing slash/slash, but the fact is they are still behind. Yes they may be getting cuts on the guy, but who reallly cares what is happeining to the other guy if you are not trying to actively turn the corner and tip the scales...you are simply stalling and losing.

I cannot really comment generically on KM as I have no real experience with it, but as with most MAs they do some stuff right, and some stuff....they could do better with.

For Soldiers, I think we can do much better with teaching knife skills most certainly. What we are doing right I believe is teaching them to be agressive, take the initative, close with and keep moving forward and not letting up the tempo of the fight.

If that fails, we are doing a decent job of teaching them the body skills necessary to protect and regain the iniative as well. I think this is fundamental and key...AND it is ignored by most MA practices out there today.

The good news is that I actually believe that if Aikido is practiced correctly as Uke, there is much that CAN be learned about losing the iniative and re-establishing it. Really the whole point if you ask me. However, that aspect seems to get lost by many in the art in favor of Nage's practice.

I hope this makes some sense. I think the whole training strategy is inherently complex actually and much of it is very contextual and we have to make sure we are focusing on the right things in our training.

I would submit that you could have two groups of people doing the exact same movements, but be doing something completely different all because of the focus of their objective and intent! That there is enough to complicate the process of learning this stuff...not to mention introducing the variable of edged weapons into the mix which complicates the learning process that much more!

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Old 09-05-2009, 05:16 AM   #27
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Quote:
Russell Davis wrote: View Post
Stick, Knife, Sword and staff (bo/jo) are basically one and the same, there are a number of slashes, and a number of thrusts.
How you use a weapon, and how you would counter a weapon attack, is somthing else altogether.
"State of Mind"

What do you think?
In FMA, the stick is a sort of substitute for a machete, although it could also double as a dagger, knife, or a club. In some FMA, a longer stick is sometimes used as a sort of cudgel. For teaching and learning simplicity, the trajectory of the stick is treated as "universal", so that it can be easily translated into both unarmed and armed combat. So I suppose you could generalize that at some level, they are similar - but they are not necessarily one and the same.

There are subtle and quite distinct differences in how a particular weapon is wielded according to its function and design.. A machete, for instance, is more suited for mid-to-long range slashing, not so for thrusting. A dagger, OTOH, is equally suited for both at close range. A stick, wielded as a club, tends to lend itself to whip-like strikes and stabs at long range, rather than slash and thrust.

But, to say that how you use a weapon, and how you would counter a weapon attack, boils down to something as broadly as "state of mind", belies the technical intricacy and detail in the use and counter of such weapons. While a dagger can be used, when in close, to puncture vital organs, sever tendons and arteries, you can't do the same with a stick. Neither can you use the leverage that the stick affords to effect a takedown, with say a machete.

Ignatius
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Old 09-05-2009, 03:42 PM   #28
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Does someone have thoughts on this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1T30ZkC07w

Many special forces weapon defenses from "The Green Berets"

It begins at 7:22.

Drew
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Old 09-05-2009, 04:22 PM   #29
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Those defenses are classified. Can't talk about them.

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Old 09-05-2009, 10:32 PM   #30
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Sure you can talk about it Kevin... just kill him afterwards.

My only comment, Drew, is what is shown in movies is for "entertainment", and rarely bears any resemblance to the real thing..

Ignatius
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:06 AM   #31
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Quote:
Russell Davis wrote: View Post
Stick, Knife, Sword and staff (bo/jo) are basically one and the same, there are a number of slashes, and a number of thrusts.
How you use a weapon, and how you would counter a weapon attack, is somthing else altogether.
"State of Mind"

What do you think?
I think that's wrong. They are all different.
The body we have at our disposal to wield them however - will be the same no matter what weapon we use.
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Old 09-06-2009, 04:16 AM   #32
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Hi to the initiator of the topic " All weapons are one and the same!" , I admire this great effort that Weapons are all the same by the effects of death or Physical injuries in the Spiritual Views . But Materially The Strikes are not of the same position and effects and not the same wounds and Bruises, Though the same death. We discuss about Arch Angel Micheal and how He defeated Satan from Heaven down to Earth may the Inclusion of Martial Arts be effective on this topic. But the Arch Angel Lucifer does not suffer death even how many Blows. Do we excluded Budo or Martial Arts from this topic. Nin or Chikara or Power of Angels are being discussed . We discuss further the Human Battle that causes many casualties and injuries , We mean weapons like guns and artillery , The Martial Arts weapons must be interrogated during actual fight such as Sharp weapon Uchi or Blows, the Strike of Kali or Arnis the amount of Bruises and wounds with the inclusion of the position of the emphasized hit.

REYNALDO L. ALBAŅO
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Old 09-06-2009, 11:33 AM   #33
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

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Sure you can talk about it Kevin... just kill him afterwards.

My only comment, Drew, is what is shown in movies is for "entertainment", and rarely bears any resemblance to the real thing..
The element of believability is incredibly important in successful novels and serious films. This is not an over-the-top Tarantino flick about five-finger exploding heart techniques. I believe the directors in this scene made it entertaining and rather realistic at the same time. Then again, this movie got two out of for stars I think. If you see specific faults, please shine some light.

Drew
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Old 09-06-2009, 12:15 PM   #34
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Well, what did you get out of it Drew?

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Old 09-06-2009, 04:29 PM   #35
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
The element of believability is incredibly important in successful novels and serious films. This is not an over-the-top Tarantino flick about five-finger exploding heart techniques. I believe the directors in this scene made it entertaining and rather realistic at the same time. Then again, this movie got two out of for stars I think. If you see specific faults, please shine some light.

Drew
Believability how? Realistic how? Unless you are privy to such techniques by having been part of an actual program where these techniques were actually taught, how would you know? FWIW, I've never been in such a program. But I can tell you this much though, having *some* knowledge of human anatomy and what makes it work (or in this case - how to make it not work...), it sure ain't either... on any front.

No offense to The Duke... of course, but them is some big a$$ed flat-footed elephants traipsing through the jungle.

Ignatius
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Old 09-06-2009, 05:37 PM   #36
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Leave the Duke out of it...if you EVEN come close to using his name in a negative way, dem is fighting words!

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Old 09-07-2009, 10:02 AM   #37
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

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Russell, latercomer to the thread, but I agree with all the others on this thread. They are not the same. each one of them has a particular set of tactical advantages and disadvantages which result in them having to be trained differently.

Unfortunately, reductionism does not worked with weapons training.

Someone used the boxing example. Sure I can teach boxing and striking in 30 seconds or less using reductionism. Hand goes out, hand comes back in...what are your questions. Now lets apply that to MMA. Hand goes out, hand comes back in.

The point is, the application, rules, tactics, scenarios all dictate the employment of the weapon, thus affecting how you train it tremendously.

My experiences are that most folks really don't understand edged weapons and how to employ them properly to win a fight....or how to defend against them, which is inherently difficult actually.

Sorry I don't agree with your position on this.
In short, it's not what your wielding, its the tactics you employ in wielding it. Going into my second week of real boxing, I'm shocked to find out how complicated it can be. My blackbelt in TKD, time in krav maga, mma, etc is basically worthless. Sure I see holes in the strategy (especially with a grappling background), but I also see that the boxing strategy is way way different then any other kind of striking strategy I've ever learned.

The same applies to weapons. For example, if I was going to attack you with a beer bottle or knife, I'm not going to let you know I have it. I'm going to close the distance, then gut you. If I'm using a bat or sword, it's going to be next to impossible to hide the fact I"m going to use this. The tactics change.

I agree with Bas Rutten that 90% of the fight is mental. Of that 90% I'd say 75% of it is employing and sticking to proper tactics. I'm reading Sam Sheridon's book, "A fighter's Heart". This reinforces it to me. He learns good tactics such as head movement and keeping his opponents out with the jab. But he (at least in the beginning) lacks the mental ability to keep to his tactics and just turns into a brawler, and thusly loses or gets beat to all hell.

Last edited by DonMagee : 09-07-2009 at 10:04 AM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-07-2009, 11:11 AM   #38
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Damn Don, I am going to disagree with you for the first time ever I think!

"It is not what you wield, but the tactics..."

Not entirely. I think your analogy is wrong.

In boxing and grappling your wielding the same tools, empty hands, however, you are applying a different set of conditions and rules that will affect HOW you use those same tools. Hence why you can be all thumbs and all your training seems to be not very useful.

With a Knife and in reality, that weapon and the capabilities it gives you is the primary driver. Whereas in boxing/grapping you are using the same tools, with different rules/conditions...if you take a Knife and an ASP, they are two different weapons subject to the same rules and conditions.

However, what they bring to the situation are the primary driver between employment and defense.

Base principles are the same. OODA applies, same balance points, clinch dynamics are the same, but you have different concerns with those weapons.

I agree at a base level, that I would probably close distance the same with a beer bottle and a knife, but I might choose different targets with them (or not), but at the base both those things are designed to cut and stab. Beer bottle is just not as efficient.

However, I can hide an ASP (blunt object) and a Knife just the same, but targets are different as well as the effects. Yes, I am still going to close distance and hide it until I need to reveal it. though.

That said, as you and I both know, at the base, our training base will still be pretty similar. Close distance, clinch, sprawl, control, go to the back etc.

However, when training with weapons, we need to recognize the differences that each of them bring to the equation and make sure we understand how they will impact our base training and strategy for employment and defense.

I think the differences are enough that we cannot lump them together and say "All are the same".

Yes, I agree macroscopically, to some degree there are many similarities and much in common.

In fact, this is the strategy and point behind guys like Tony Blauer's SPEAR. Having a common default that you do no matter what.

So while I do disagree, I tend to "agree" depending on what you are looking and at what level of resoution.

I think your experiences in Boxing, Judo, and Jiu Jitsu, as well as mine drive this point home. If you change any variable in the situation, you will experience a significant amount of Dissonance that will cause you to fail when dealing with that variable.

This is really the salient point I think and why I am so adamant about driving this home and NOT assuming that weapons are the same!

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Old 09-08-2009, 11:40 AM   #39
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

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Damn Don, I am going to disagree with you for the first time ever I think!

"It is not what you wield, but the tactics..."

Not entirely. I think your analogy is wrong.

In boxing and grappling your wielding the same tools, empty hands, however, you are applying a different set of conditions and rules that will affect HOW you use those same tools. Hence why you can be all thumbs and all your training seems to be not very useful.

With a Knife and in reality, that weapon and the capabilities it gives you is the primary driver. Whereas in boxing/grapping you are using the same tools, with different rules/conditions...if you take a Knife and an ASP, they are two different weapons subject to the same rules and conditions.

However, what they bring to the situation are the primary driver between employment and defense.

Base principles are the same. OODA applies, same balance points, clinch dynamics are the same, but you have different concerns with those weapons.

I agree at a base level, that I would probably close distance the same with a beer bottle and a knife, but I might choose different targets with them (or not), but at the base both those things are designed to cut and stab. Beer bottle is just not as efficient.

However, I can hide an ASP (blunt object) and a Knife just the same, but targets are different as well as the effects. Yes, I am still going to close distance and hide it until I need to reveal it. though.

That said, as you and I both know, at the base, our training base will still be pretty similar. Close distance, clinch, sprawl, control, go to the back etc.

However, when training with weapons, we need to recognize the differences that each of them bring to the equation and make sure we understand how they will impact our base training and strategy for employment and defense.

I think the differences are enough that we cannot lump them together and say "All are the same".

Yes, I agree macroscopically, to some degree there are many similarities and much in common.

In fact, this is the strategy and point behind guys like Tony Blauer's SPEAR. Having a common default that you do no matter what.

So while I do disagree, I tend to "agree" depending on what you are looking and at what level of resoution.

I think your experiences in Boxing, Judo, and Jiu Jitsu, as well as mine drive this point home. If you change any variable in the situation, you will experience a significant amount of Dissonance that will cause you to fail when dealing with that variable.

This is really the salient point I think and why I am so adamant about driving this home and NOT assuming that weapons are the same!
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I think my explanation wasn't clear enough. Obviously bjj skills won't work where boxing is against the rules, just as pure boxing won't work in a bjj match. What I was talking about is the strategy and tactics of the sport.

For example you can leverage a boxing strategy in MMA, or a brawler's strategy, or a bjjer's strategy. Being able to create and adjust those strategies on the fly, as well as stick to them (which is very hard to do under duress as we both know) is key.

My point was that while 2 guys may both train with the exact same weapon, they are both employing different strategies, which means they have to be handled differently. A good example is a story about the judo legend Kimura. He was in the military and was picked to attack a guy teaching bayonet work. He knew this guy was a master at using this item and that he had no chance to beat him. So, when told to attack he simply threw the wooden gun at the teacher and proceeded to judo the crap out of him. This is what I was meaning, being able to look at a situation, develop a winning strategy for the task at hand, and employ it without hesitation or second thoughts.

In the book I referenced above, the protagonist was unable to stick to his strategy, instead he would fall back into just chasing his opponents around and brawling. This caused him a lot of pain and bleeding. When he did tow the line and implement his strategy, he faired far better.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-08-2009, 12:27 PM   #40
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Don wrote:

Quote:
So, when told to attack he simply threw the wooden gun at the teacher and proceeded to judo the crap out of him. This is what I was meaning, being able to look at a situation, develop a winning strategy for the task at hand, and employ it without hesitation or second thoughts.
Funny, actually I do the same thing in Pugil Stick training. I learned that sitting there fighting a guy with a stick with the stick didn't make much sense so I usually throw mine at him while closing distance, drop it then grab his and do a tai otoshi kinda takedown, take the stick away from him and use his stick!

Works everytime.

It was a paradigm that I had to break since that is not how we normally train or train folks to fight, but it makes sense if you want to win a pugil sticks!

So sure, adaptive strategies work, as long as you consider the rules (agreed to and implied) along with the tactical considerations of the weapon.

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Old 09-08-2009, 05:11 PM   #41
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Hi Kevin, yet again you keep providing interesting views, on the topic of employing tactics etc, what about some hand to hand with a knife for example, what if the fight is on uneven ground like a forrest , in the middle of the night, with little or no moon.
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Old 09-08-2009, 08:09 PM   #42
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Hey Russell,

Well "what if"?

Good question. Those are environmental and situational things that certainly come into play.

My friend Matt Larsen, says at the Beginning of almost every talk he gives, "The winner of the hand to hand fight is the guy whose buddy shows up first with a gun".

Of course, this is in the context of Army training, but I think it still puts the right perspective on things for anyone really. That is, if you look at it maybe a little differently.

Lots of saying. "two kinds of gunslingers, the quick and the dead"

There is Murphy's law of combat, which are good ones too.

Anyway, the point is, there is not much we can really do to provide solutions to those "what ifs".

When teaching combatives we will throw those things into the equation. Matt likes to slip a taser secretly to someone when doing grappling.

I have guys fight in full kit sometimes. Other times we will smoke one guy and then throw him into the fight. We do alot of things to uneven the fights.

I think this does a couple of things. It drives home that no matter what you have to be tough and continue to fight no matter what. Never give up.

You don't have time to feel sorry for yourself or to process that you are losing or the odds are against you..you must fight.

You just might lose and that is a sad fact of life, so you need to make sure that you are ready as you can be, and you must always fight!

As one of my old teachers used to say "Always Cheat, Always Win!".

I think the best we can do for our students is make them understand that there is not always parity in a situation and life is not always fair...and the other guy may not really care that you are having a bad day or that you really want to resolve the situation with minimal force.

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Old 09-08-2009, 08:20 PM   #43
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Quote:
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Hey Russell,

Well "what if"?

Good question. Those are environmental and situational things that certainly come into play.

My friend Matt Larsen, says at the Beginning of almost every talk he gives, "The winner of the hand to hand fight is the guy whose buddy shows up first with a gun".

Of course, this is in the context of Army training, but I think it still puts the right perspective on things for anyone really. That is, if you look at it maybe a little differently.

Lots of saying. "two kinds of gunslingers, the quick and the dead"

There is Murphy's law of combat, which are good ones too.

Anyway, the point is, there is not much we can really do to provide solutions to those "what ifs".

When teaching combatives we will throw those things into the equation. Matt likes to slip a taser secretly to someone when doing grappling.

I have guys fight in full kit sometimes. Other times we will smoke one guy and then throw him into the fight. We do alot of things to uneven the fights.

I think this does a couple of things. It drives home that no matter what you have to be tough and continue to fight no matter what. Never give up.

You don't have time to feel sorry for yourself or to process that you are losing or the odds are against you..you must fight.

You just might lose and that is a sad fact of life, so you need to make sure that you are ready as you can be, and you must always fight!

As one of my old teachers used to say "Always Cheat, Always Win!".

I think the best we can do for our students is make them understand that there is not always parity in a situation and life is not always fair...and the other guy may not really care that you are having a bad day or that you really want to resolve the situation with minimal force.
"If your not cheating, your not trying" - Tito Ortiz

I tell people who train with me the same way. The rules are in place as a obstacle to work around as well as work within. A good sportsman thinks "What can I do within the spirit of the rules" a good tactician thinks "How can I win using the rules to my advantage".

My judo coach used to tell me that you can't touch the face, except when your opponent was belly down, because the ref isn't going to bend his fat butt over and look. I quickly learned a punch isn't a punch if you are holding a handful of gi and going for Osoto gari. I remember telling him about a sparing partner who kept kneeing me in the inner leg while pretending to do osoto gari, he told me to man up and cheat back.

Keeping that mindset lets you remember to do all those dirty tricks when the rules are not in play. Every now and then you have to remind everyone that yes, BJJ players know how to eye gouge too and do it from a superior position!

- Don
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Old 09-08-2009, 08:29 PM   #44
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

lol...yeah I too have used the "gi no inch punch" in competition on more than one occasion. Yesterday my instructor was grinding the crap out of my face trying to get a eziekel on me. It hurt like hell and pissed me off, but learning to over come the immediate pain that really isn't going to hurt you is important too!

All that macho crap aside, sportsmanship is important of course, and respect in the dojo is important as well. However, sometimes it is also important to do the things that just are not fun and sometime that are not fair in order to touch upon a deeper nerve or to explore that side that just is not pretty.

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Old 09-10-2009, 05:16 PM   #45
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Hey Kevin, I know this is not as per the original post, but I would be interested in your reply.
Given the choice (not an option in many mil units) which of these would you choose and why?

1. Attack an MG nest at night
or
2. Cross a minefield at night

Its possibly too obvious for you but maybe some others might take the plunge.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:23 PM   #46
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Quote:
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Hi Ron thanks for that,
Perhaps if I suggested to everone that they should look for the similarities in the use of weapons and not disect my comment to any great degree, do you think they might get the idea? or will they still miss the point.

As for defining cuts and movement, I would like to point out that technique goes out the window, on the battlefield.

Russell
Just remember, "50 million Elvis fans can't be wrong".... or, when you post something and everyone disagrees with you, it might be time to reassess the point rather than assume that we all missed it. Just a suggestion...

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Old 09-10-2009, 09:49 PM   #47
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Quote:
Russell Davis wrote: View Post
Hey Kevin, I know this is not as per the original post, but I would be interested in your reply.
Given the choice (not an option in many mil units) which of these would you choose and why?

1. Attack an MG nest at night
or
2. Cross a minefield at night

Its possibly too obvious for you but maybe some others might take the plunge.
Sorry, but it is really not a question that can be answered. Too many variables that come into play.

Besides, being a soldier, and the Karma, so to speak that led you to the point where you had to do either one of those things means that you don't have a choice, so you do what you have to do because it is the right thing to do.

Courage and completing the mission are absolute so you do it without hesitation or without consideration. Not a question any good soldier in their right mind would even ever ponder.

Short soldier answer...."I don't give a Sh..., I will do what is necessary to defeat my enemy".

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Old 09-10-2009, 10:07 PM   #48
eyrie
 
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Location: Summerholm, Queensland
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

If taking out the MG nest is a requisite part of the mission parameters to capture the objective, then you do what you need to do... where is the choice in that?

If you have no other choice but to navigate a minefield in the dark, in order to get to the RP, then you have to do it... where's the choice? But if there is an alternative to crossing the minefield, you'd be outta ya mind not to take it... orders or no orders....

I don't see how the question is even germaine to the topic...

Ignatius
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Old 09-11-2009, 09:23 AM   #49
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Quote:
A good example is a story about the judo legend Kimura. He was in the military and was picked to attack a guy teaching bayonet work. He knew this guy was a master at using this item and that he had no chance to beat him. So, when told to attack he simply threw the wooden gun at the teacher and proceeded to judo the crap out of him.
Ah, the ole Kobiashi Maru...

Best,
Ron (the the real trekkies out there, no, I didn't look up the spelling)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 09-11-2009, 12:59 PM   #50
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Ron (the the real trekkies out there, no, I didn't look up the spelling)
We can see that.

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