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Old 03-20-2009, 09:49 AM   #1
Russell Davis
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All weapons are one and the same!

Stick, Knife, Sword and staff (bo/jo) are basically one and the same, there are a number of slashes, and a number of thrusts.
How you use a weapon, and how you would counter a weapon attack, is somthing else altogether.
"State of Mind"

What do you think?
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Old 03-20-2009, 11:14 AM   #2
ChrisHein
 
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Grossly, I understand what you're saying.

In actuality it doesn't work that way. A sword has reach on a knife, lots of reach. This fighting distance is important. If you have a knife and you are going to face a guy with a sword, you will have to be much much better then him if you have any chance of being successful.

A bo/jo, can be turned around and used on both sides, making the weapon fast, and agile. Bladed weapons don't have this advantage. If you have a bo/jo, you won't be able to block a sword in the manner you can block another bo/jo. This makes the weapons very different.

Looks like you are sticking to the modern idea of major Japanese weapons, but you did say "all" weapons are the same. Chain and rope weapons are very different. you cannot thrust with them at all, and if you swing them the same way you would a club for example, you're just as likely to hit yourself as your opponent.

Ax's, nagenata, rifles, shuriken, manrikigasari, bastard swords, icepicks, stun guns, etc etc are all tools, and all have their own advantages and disadvantages.

Your statement is like saying:

"Wrenches, hammers, bottle openers, and screwdrivers (phillips/flat head) are basically one and the same, there are a number of ways you push, pull, or twist them.
How you use a tool, and how build, is something else altogether."

Yeah, I see where you're going, but it's kind of a gross exaggeration you are pointing at. And out of context, I don't know how helpful it is.

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Old 03-20-2009, 11:14 AM   #3
James Edwards
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

I don't think I understand what you mean. I think you are sort of contradicting yourself.

How are they the same? How you use a weapon and how to counter them make the weapon the way the are and thus they are different. They have different maai, different applications, different techniques, different body positioning etc. I can only see them as the "same" considering that they are all extensions on the body and ki.
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Old 03-20-2009, 11:29 AM   #4
Russell Davis
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

thanks for the input, I was simply trying to say that there are only so many ways to slash or thrust be it with a beer bottle or a sword
Eg high forehand & backhand slash
Middle forehand & backhand
Rising Forehand & backhand
High thrust
low thrust
I was not trying to compare Knife V sword in a fight etc just trying to simplify that learning and using various weapons ain't complicated, its really very simple.

thanks again for the input

Russell
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Old 03-20-2009, 01:49 PM   #5
Michael Douglas
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Quote:
Russell Davis wrote: View Post
...I was not trying to compare Knife V sword in a fight etc just trying to simplify that learning and using various weapons ain't complicated, its really very simple....
I completely disagree.
Learning to USE weapons can be very complicated, most of the useful stuff is all in speed, movement, distance and timing.
I find using a knife to be absolutely different to a three-foot sword, and that completely different to a seven-foot staff...
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Old 03-20-2009, 03:24 PM   #6
Russell Davis
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

A right diagonal slash to the neck with a bottle, is much the same as a right diagonal slash with a sword, yes there are some differences in the cut, range, and movement etc, but at the end of the day, they are all basically the same.

keep it simple cause simple works!

thanks again for the input
Russell
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Old 03-20-2009, 04:05 PM   #7
Ron Tisdale
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

"differences in the cut, range, and movement etc"

are not minor differences in practice. Not to me, or most of my partners anyway. I believe I could say the same regarding my teachers. But hey, what ever floats...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-20-2009, 06:42 PM   #8
Russell Davis
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Hi Ron thanks for that,
Perhaps if I suggested to everone that they should look for the similarities in the use of weapons and not disect my comment to any great degree, do you think they might get the idea? or will they still miss the point.

As for defining cuts and movement, I would like to point out that technique goes out the window, on the battlefield.

Russell

Last edited by Russell Davis : 03-20-2009 at 06:49 PM. Reason: add on
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Old 03-20-2009, 07:34 PM   #9
raul rodrigo
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

All jump shots in basketball are the same, whether they be eight feet or 25 feet, right? The physics is similar, naturally. But why can we all make one shot and not the other? Kobe Bryant can say, correctly, it's all the same to him. He can make a 25-footer with Ron Artest leaping in his face. For me to say the same thing, though, would be silly.
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Old 03-20-2009, 08:03 PM   #10
Russell Davis
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

I guess this is too complicated an idea to get your head around, as you are still missing the point.

Last edited by Russell Davis : 03-20-2009 at 08:04 PM. Reason: incomplete
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Old 03-20-2009, 08:13 PM   #11
Russell Davis
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

O.K. let me explain the reason for my statement.
I have USED whether correctly or not;
Double stick V Double stick
Double Stick V Stick & Knife
Double Stick V Bokken
Double Stick V jo
Sword & Daggar V Axe and shield
Single stick V knife
Sword V knife
Single stick V Spear
Improvised weapons include;
Brolly, Biro, Magazine, Belt, Bottle, riding crop, to name a few.

Throughout this process of training, it became very obvious that they were all very similar in striking and blocking, with very few exceptions to the rule

NOW do you get the point!

Last edited by Russell Davis : 03-20-2009 at 08:15 PM. Reason: missed out Spear
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Old 03-20-2009, 08:40 PM   #12
Sy Labthavikul
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Sure, the weapon movements you say (directions of slashing movements, thrusts, whatever) are the same if you are only considering the path the object is traveling. If you swing a baseball bat, a broken bottle, a knife, a sword in a diagonal arc, sure, ignoring all other factors, the path that is carved out in space is topologically equivalent. The PATH is equivalent TOPOLOGICALLY, but not identically the same. (and topologically a coffee mug with a handle is equivalent to a donut, cuz both have holes in them; its clear a coffee mug and a donut are not identically the same)

But does that really translate into all weapons (and more importantly, how we handle weapons) being the same?

If I swing a baseball bat at you, my intention is to bludgeon you by swinging this mass at you. By swinging it in a wide arc, I can accelerate the mass to a much faster velocity and therefore impart more impulse when the thing hits you. Thats simple.

Now replace that baseball bat with a sword: now I'm trying to cut you with it, since its basically a 3 foot long razor blade. And because its a razor blade, its edge is very hard but very delicate: if that edge doesn't hit right on, it'll chip. I can't afford to swing this thing like a baseball bat anymore: now I have to make sure my hands are arranged in such a way that I can align the edge properly.

Whats more, the geometry of the sword plays a part now too: if its a western style straight sword, which is better of chopping and taking advantage of its mass, a circular arc is fine when swinging it. But if the sword is curved, like Japanese katana, Chinese dao, or Turkish scimitar, these weapons are too light to chop: they are designed to cut and slash. And the best way to cut something is to place the edge against the target and draw it back and forth like a saw. So now we have to alter the arc we use when we swing this sword: in grossly simplistic terms, the arc becomes an ellipse, because at the end of the cut when our sword impacts the target, we draw it back towards ourselves to cut. (these are gross simplifications: i'm sorry if I've offended any sword art practitioners)

So now we have a circular arc compared to an elliptical arc. Topologically, they are equivalent. They are not, however, identical.

Personally, I love theory like this: its fun to think about. But I think many sword art practitioners would cringe at the thought that meditating on the similarities of a baseball swing and a do cut would actually translate into improving your training: a do cut is NOT a baseball swing in practice, only in theory. Performing a do cut the way you'd swing a baseball bat or an axe will result in you bending or breaking your daito. And doing a caveman swing with a club the way you'd perform a shomen cut would trade away too much of the club's powerful mass for the sake of weapon control that isn't necessary for a club.

Last edited by Sy Labthavikul : 03-20-2009 at 08:46 PM.


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Old 03-21-2009, 10:31 AM   #13
Abasan
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

I don't think you mean it in this way... a hockey swing is similar to a golf swing.

More like its essentially the same in that both hits the ball in the direction you want it to. Right?

Cut.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 03-21-2009, 02:20 PM   #14
Janet Rosen
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

If you want to posit a simple rule and not have people actually discuss the pros and cons, why post it?

Janet Rosen
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Old 03-21-2009, 02:58 PM   #15
Ketsan
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Quote:
Russell Davis wrote: View Post

As for defining cuts and movement, I would like to point out that technique goes out the window, on the battlefield.

Russell
That's like saying a boxer forgets how to box in the boxing ring.
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Old 03-22-2009, 01:57 PM   #16
philippe willaume
 
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Quote:
Russell Davis wrote: View Post
Stick, Knife, Sword and staff (bo/jo) are basically one and the same, there are a number of slashes, and a number of thrusts.
How you use a weapon, and how you would counter a weapon attack, is somthing else altogether.
"State of Mind"

What do you think?
well yes at a fundamental level but no in details
For example
If you take all European manual from the 15th century they do cover a fair amount of weapon, in armour and without on foot an on horse.
So for example if you take half-swording and spear you have a poleaxe system.
Or if you take longsword and wrestling you do have a knife system

And it is true that the same principle can be applied regardless of the weapon. However they say as well that each weapon has its length and its measure.
In modern parlance each weapon has its distance and its timing.

As well if you use sword and buckler you will use the long sword teachings but in the bind (when the sword has made contact with shield and or sword of the opponent, the technique will using the same components as all the other weapons but they takes a particular shape due to the nature of the weapon

Now civilian weapon like the small sword or the rapier proper (i.e. 17th cent) and the rapier proto small-sword really only usable to puncture, will lead to change of stance and fundamentally different organisation of the fight but they will still use the same fundamental principal as the 15th century long sword.
phil

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In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 03-23-2009, 05:26 AM   #17
Michael Douglas
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Quote:
Russell Davis wrote: View Post
O.K. let me explain the reason for my statement.
I have USED whether correctly or not;
Double stick V Double stick
Double Stick V Stick & Knife
Double Stick V Bokken
Double Stick V jo
Sword & Daggar V Axe and shield
Single stick V knife
Sword V knife
Single stick V Spear
Improvised weapons include;
Brolly, Biro, Magazine, Belt, Bottle, riding crop, to name a few.

Throughout this process of training, it became very obvious that they were all very similar in striking and blocking, with very few exceptions to the rule

NOW do you get the point!
Your statements and your snobbish digs suggest that you have NOT 'USED' these weapons ... or that you're thirteen years old.
I realise this will sound like a personal attack, and that's against the rules, but the whole direction of your posts on this thread and maybe a couple of others are just trolling. Trolling's against the rules too ... I think.
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Old 03-23-2009, 12:07 PM   #18
C. David Henderson
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Hi Russell,

I also can see at one level what you're getting at. Sounds like you perceive shared patterns of movement based on what Sy described as the topology of those movements.

Can you describe how noticing these similarities affects the way you approach weapons training, as opposed to the apparent differences?

In my limited experience (and it is limited), it seems like the folks who are emphasizing the differences between kinds of weapons aren't simply describing the cup as "half-empty," instead of "half-full," so much as saying the liquid in the containers, whatever their topographic similarities, doesn't behave the same.

You mention, for example, "striking" with a sword as similar to, e.g., striking with a stick. But striking with a bokken, understood as striking, seems ill-suited to model an effective cut with a live sword -- for the reasons described.

Even with weapons that appear similar in various ways, the differences seem important to me.

Manipulating effectively a bladed staff weapon like a naginata, for example, is dissimilar in important respects from using a staff, a sword, or a thrusting weapon like a yari. Unlike a staff, there is a cutting edge that has to be oriented with the direction of the cut; hence the traditional shape of the shaft. Nonetheless, the movement involved isn't like simply using an oversized sword: cutting something at the end of a long stick isn't like cutting something with a long razor blade attached to a handle. The balance of the weapon is also different and, like a bo, the distal end of the shaft is used frequently. The size of the weapon creates a different set of stances and patterns of movement (including reorienting the distal and cutting ends of the weapon relative to the opponent). The distinctive, highly curved shape of the blade, which makes it a cutting pole arm, also makes it less suited for thrusting attacks than a spear.

If you can find a video on-line of naginata vs. ken, you may see how these differences translate into difference in movement, tactics, and technique.

FWIW

cdh
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Old 03-23-2009, 01:15 PM   #19
C. David Henderson
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

For similarities and differences, see, e.g.,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INz6ONC6QDs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE8TN...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUVzT9tvquY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgnhL...eature=related
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Old 03-23-2009, 02:51 PM   #20
ramenboy
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

i'll bite.... if you 'treat' the 'weapons we have in aikido' a wooden staff, a wooden sword and a wooden knife, then yes, they're basically the same. 'i'm gonna get hit by a piece of wood slowly' or 'i'm gonna get poked by this toy slowly' then, yeah, they're the same.

if we approach at the bokken, tanto and jo with the attitude of being real weapons and that one strike could be either life or maybe death, then, yes its the 'state of mind' that makes things different. as my old escrima teacher used to say, no one attacks you with a wooden knife on the street. if you don't expect to be cut, you'll be in big trouble.

wooden weapons, all the same. but change your state of mind when you train
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Old 08-17-2009, 05:13 PM   #21
Russell Davis
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Been away for a while folks, read all the replies, very interesting it was too. David henderson is on the right track,
From most of the responses, I would say that you have alll reached an advanced level of training, hence the focus on detail.
Take a group of beginners lesson 1; teach them all stick, knife and sword in ONE lesson. focus on the basic cuts and blocks of each weapon in a stationary position.
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Old 08-17-2009, 06:46 PM   #22
phitruong
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Quote:
Russell Davis wrote: View Post
Take a group of beginners lesson 1; teach them all stick, knife and sword in ONE lesson. focus on the basic cuts and blocks of each weapon in a stationary position.
so after the basic lesson, you handed them nunchaku right? i'll bet you even have a video going too. that's just sick!

you know, some weapons do hit back.
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Old 08-17-2009, 10:36 PM   #23
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Russell, latercomer to the thread, but I agree with all the others on this thread. They are not the same. each one of them has a particular set of tactical advantages and disadvantages which result in them having to be trained differently.

Unfortunately, reductionism does not worked with weapons training.

Someone used the boxing example. Sure I can teach boxing and striking in 30 seconds or less using reductionism. Hand goes out, hand comes back in...what are your questions. Now lets apply that to MMA. Hand goes out, hand comes back in.

The point is, the application, rules, tactics, scenarios all dictate the employment of the weapon, thus affecting how you train it tremendously.

My experiences are that most folks really don't understand edged weapons and how to employ them properly to win a fight....or how to defend against them, which is inherently difficult actually.

Sorry I don't agree with your position on this.

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Old 09-04-2009, 06:27 PM   #24
Russell Davis
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

For the benefit of Phil Troung, NO I dont. I should have used the words For Example take a class etc etc
Obviously you never rose to the challenge of actually doing it. if you did perhaps it would help your tunnel vision.
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Old 09-04-2009, 06:39 PM   #25
Russell Davis
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Re: All weapons are one and the same!

Hi Kevin, nice reply

when you said in your experience, were you refering to soldiers or those trained in martial arts, if so I am seriously worried about what our soldiers are being taught (UK) as for "trained" martial arts men and women, I have always been led to believe that they learn the "real macoy" (Krav Maga or something similar)
If so called weapons training is in actual fact ineffective, then why teach it in the first place, putting someone into a false sense of security, is possibly more dangereous than NO training

enjoy reading other articles where you contribute, keep it up.
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