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Old 03-19-2009, 02:34 AM   #26
Sy Labthavikul
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Do you mean when you throw yourself over your own hand?
I'm asking because I've always just hit the ground with my shoulder and my legs just followed along (not over) without momentum, not caring whether they crossed or spread ... the legs issue only arises (in my imagination) when a self-propelled UKEMI is constructed.
I hope you don't mean actually LANDING on your shoulder... I could imagine the collarbone (one of the structurally weakest bones in the body) cracking under the strain.


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Old 05-13-2009, 02:37 AM   #27
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

Hi

It is important to prevent our knees from hitting each other. This may cause serious injury. Other than that I see no preference one way or the other.
It would probably be a good exercise to train both ways so your body learns what to do in both cases.
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Old 05-13-2009, 04:48 PM   #28
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

My legs cross. It is from my previous training in Aikijitsu. We were always taught to protect our groin. Sensei scolds me sometimes... but I do it without thought! Maybe one of these days I will manage to get out of my old ways.... haha.
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Old 05-13-2009, 04:51 PM   #29
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

Let me specify what I meant by crossed..... your left leg is straight out on the mat. The right knee is bent and the right foot is flat on the mat, but on the outside of your knee (left side of your left knee). That is what I take to be crossed....

My sensei prefers us to land with the (in this instance) the left leg straight on the mat and our right knee is bent and the right foot is flat on the mat. HOWEVER, he likes our right foot to be on the right side of our knee (which I take to be uncrossed).

Last edited by ninjaqutie : 05-13-2009 at 04:53 PM. Reason: Details
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Old 05-13-2009, 05:09 PM   #30
Fred Little
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

At the risk of introducing a problematic digression, I would point out that nine out of ten applications of kotegaieshi that create a perceived need for uke to take a breakfall also creates an opening in which uke could easily smack nage in the head in mid-flight.

In practice, gently pointing that out with a light touch often reduces the number of times you have to consider the question posed by the original poster.

FL

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Old 05-13-2009, 07:16 PM   #31
jason jordan
 
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
Koan: What is the sound of two gonads clapping?
I really don't know....I couldn't hear the sound of anything when it last happend, the pain in my body caused a total body shut down.
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Old 05-13-2009, 07:18 PM   #32
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

My advice is to do what's comfortable and safest for you. There isn't any wrong or right. Other than if you squish the "Gonads" then clearly that was the wrong thing to do. So do the opposite of that.
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:57 AM   #33
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

Fred's point is well taken...

Best,
Ron (hope you are well)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:50 AM   #34
sorokod
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
At the risk of introducing a problematic digression, I would point out that nine out of ten applications of kotegaieshi that create a perceived need for uke to take a breakfall also creates an opening in which uke could easily smack nage in the head in mid-flight.

In practice, gently pointing that out with a light touch often reduces the number of times you have to consider the question posed by the original poster.
FL
Kotegaeshi can be done correctly or incorrectly either way, same as any other technique really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kllguJOIVRk

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Old 05-17-2009, 11:35 AM   #35
Michael Douglas
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
I hope you don't mean actually LANDING on your shoulder... I could imagine the collarbone (one of the structurally weakest bones in the body) cracking under the strain.
Landing on my shoulder, while rotating. My collarbone doesn't take much direct shock, the shoulderblade and back soon follows. I guess everyone has to land on something...
Sorry for the delay in answering you Sy.
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Old 05-17-2009, 07:17 PM   #36
DH
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

If Uke were doing Aiki...do. There is almost no chance that Kotogaeshi would ever even happen. That said, were one to be willing to stop doing aiki and let nage complete the waza for practice sake- they could do so and just just stand there saying "Job well done, want to practice it again?" There is no need to fall down. And that said, why not practice to do it, practice to cancel it out, or absorb it a few times then practice counters all in the same class, then practice Ukemi at a later date?
Why not do the same thing with everything? Including all manner of throws. Then start on absorbing atemi's.
Seems to me that in the end game, that level of training would make aiki people who were absolutely tough as nails against most Martial Artist out there. Actually I think its what Ueshiba was doing himself and anyone can be taught to do it right from the start. Its learning a form of mastery from the beginning. It's hard work, but its great fun, and it can be taught to everyone from the very beginning. I see little reason to train to fall down most of the time, when there is a much better way that remains true to aiki.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-17-2009 at 07:30 PM.
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Old 05-18-2009, 03:14 AM   #37
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
If Uke were doing Aiki...do. There is almost no chance that Kotogaeshi would ever even happen. That said, were one to be willing to stop doing aiki and let nage complete the waza for practice sake- they could do so and just just stand there saying "Job well done, want to practice it again?" There is no need to fall down. And that said, why not practice to do it, practice to cancel it out, or absorb it a few times then practice counters all in the same class, then practice Ukemi at a later date?
Why not do the same thing with everything? Including all manner of throws. Then start on absorbing atemi's.
Seems to me that in the end game, that level of training would make aiki people who were absolutely tough as nails against most Martial Artist out there. Actually I think its what Ueshiba was doing himself and anyone can be taught to do it right from the start. Its learning a form of mastery from the beginning. It's hard work, but its great fun, and it can be taught to everyone from the very beginning. I see little reason to train to fall down most of the time, when there is a much better way that remains true to aiki.
Cheers
Dan
Well like dan
I think Ukemi is really a training aid more than a goal in itself. To ukemi comfortably you need to get in font of the technique. So it does train you to counter because to counter you need to get in front of the technique as well.
As well it enables tori to chain the technique with a pin all that in a safe and controlled manner.
or to put in on properly with no lasting damage.

If you are in front there is no need to do an over the top break falls and standard and normal ukemi will be good enough. I see the big break fall as emergency damage limitation i.e. you have been caught out and you need to catch up.
Personally I do not see any valid reason to go ever the top unless you are being put there or you want to train it.
That being said it is abit like edge to edge parry in swordsmanship, it is not advisable but a small dent in you sword is much better than a bid dent in you.
phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 05-18-2009, 07:04 AM   #38
DH
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

Hi Phil
I think the responses- at least percentage wise- pretty much line up with the understanding / training of most folks. Your discussion is pretty much limited to
a) getting in front of the technique in order to lose but supposedly stay safe
b) getting in front to help the guy do a pin

So how about getting in front of the technique without moving much at all and just cancelling it out? Not worthy in your estimation? Impossible to do?
How about if I could teach you to cancel out pretty much any lock any shihan anywhere is capable of delivering by changing your body and creating a bujutsu body-the core skills that the arts were supposed to have taught us? Not worth knowing?
How about if if that newly trained body would sort of automatically reverse techniques and draw them or repel them and put them in trouble?
Not worth knowing?
Lets assume for a moment what I am saying is real and viable...how is it not the absolute greatest ukemi ever invented? Worthy of every person in the art learning?
What would happen to the reputation of the art if every person in the art were that capable coming up the chain and advanced rank or shihanship was no longer a requirement at all?
How would it change the landscape if the real power behind the arts were possible to give to mudansha and it equaled the playing field? What would the nature of Ukemi and the possibilty of applying waza look like?
Cheers
Dan
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Old 05-18-2009, 07:16 AM   #39
Flintstone
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

Hi Dan,

What you say makes much sense to me. But, anyway, don't you believe it is absolutely necesary to learn how to fall "just in case"? Not talking about the spectacular flips seen out there, just regular safelanding ukemi.

Best,
Alex.
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Old 05-18-2009, 08:17 AM   #40
DH
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

Hello Alex
I never stated people should not do ukemi. Re-read what I just wrote and you would not need to ask the question. But it keeps coming up.
I feel like hiring a pilot to fly it in a banner across the sky........
LEARN TO TAKE UKEMI....... PRACTICE TAKING UKEMI.......
Then....
wait...

wait....

Move on.

You don't need to spend the next twenty years of your life learning to fall down over and over. You need to spend the next twenty years learning to look a Shihan in the eyes and cancel out everything he can throw at you and make your own movements and waza all but unstoppable to the average...highly trained teacher. It's a better way. It's also healthier for the body. I have never met the man or woman from any art who has felt a hands on explanation who didn't want it. This to include teachers with decades of training in the art who themselves consider this training to be the essence of the art. The aiki that was aikido.
I dunno, it seems to be a smarter, healthier and more powerful way to practice aiki to me...then falling down. Practice to stand up, and keep challenging others to be good enough to do something to you to make you fall down.
You can end a conflict ...by falling down to escape, or instead of 'needing" to escape -you could cancel it out and control the situation from start and smile.
It's just a view.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 05-18-2009, 08:53 AM   #41
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

Quote:
it's just a view
A darn good one too...the devil is in doing the work to get it...

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-18-2009, 09:17 AM   #42
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Phil
I think the responses- at least percentage wise- pretty much line up with the understanding / training of most folks. Your discussion is pretty much limited to
a) getting in front of the technique in order to lose but supposedly stay safe
b) getting in front to help the guy do a pin

So how about getting in front of the technique without moving much at all and just cancelling it out? Not worthy in your estimation? Impossible to do?
How about if I could teach you to cancel out pretty much any lock any shihan anywhere is capable of delivering by changing your body and creating a bujutsu body-the core skills that the arts were supposed to have taught us? Not worth knowing?
How about if if that newly trained body would sort of automatically reverse techniques and draw them or repel them and put them in trouble?
Not worth knowing?
Lets assume for a moment what I am saying is real and viable...how is it not the absolute greatest ukemi ever invented? Worthy of every person in the art learning?
What would happen to the reputation of the art if every person in the art were that capable coming up the chain and advanced rank or shihanship was no longer a requirement at all?
How would it change the landscape if the real power behind the arts were possible to give to mudansha and it equaled the playing field? What would the nature of Ukemi and the possibilty of applying waza look like?
Cheers
Dan
well no
yes i am saying that ukemi helps the other guy to train and is a get out of jail free card.
so this is definitly sort a & and definitively b but there is a c.
by
"So it does train you to counter because to counter you need to get in front of the technique as well".
I am saying that diligent ukemi pratice helps you acheive what you said (Though I am not sure about shihan arse kicking and instant technique negation).
It gives you the sensitivity and timing to counter.
I though that it was a given that the counter was going to replace the ukemi.

phil

Last edited by philippe willaume : 05-18-2009 at 09:20 AM.

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 05-18-2009, 09:22 AM   #43
jason jordan
 
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hello Alex
I
You don't need to spend the next twenty years of your life learning to fall down over and over. You need to spend the next twenty years learning to look a Shihan in the eyes and cancel out everything he can throw at you and make your own movements and waza all but unstoppable to the average...highly trained teacher. It's a better way. It's also healthier for the body. I have never met the man or woman from any art who has felt a hands on explanation who didn't want it. This to include teachers with decades of training in the art who themselves consider this training to be the essence of the art. The aiki that was aikido.
I dunno, it seems to be a smarter, healthier and more powerful way to practice aiki to me...then falling down. Practice to stand up, and keep challenging others to be good enough to do something to you to make you fall down.
You can end a conflict ...by falling down to escape, or instead of 'needing" to escape -you could cancel it out and control the situation from start and smile.
It's just a view.
Cheers
Dan
Interesting.
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Old 05-18-2009, 09:26 AM   #44
DH
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
well no
yes i am saying that ukemi helps the other guy to train and is a get out of jail free card.

I am saying that diligent ukemi pratice helps you acheive what you said (Though I am not sure about shihan arse kicking and instant technique negation).
It gives you the sensitivity and timing to counter.
I though that it was a given that the counter was going to replace the ukemi.

phil
Hello Phil
Well, Ukemi will never get you to what I am talking. Not ever. Not even close. As a matter of fact it is the worst thing you could do-as a regular practice- if you were trying to get there. And to be Frank, I do not believe that "taking Ukemi" helps the other guy much at all for a bevy of reasons.
It's hard to get a good grasp of what I am talking about through the written word. Hands-on is the only practical way I know of to outline it-though in my own stumbling way I do try to explain.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 05-18-2009, 10:46 AM   #45
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hello Phil
Well, Ukemi will never get you to what I am talking. Not ever. Not even close. As a matter of fact it is the worst thing you could do-as a regular practice- if you were trying to get there. And to be Frank, I do not believe that "taking Ukemi" helps the other guy much at all for a bevy of reasons.
It's hard to get a good grasp of what I am talking about through the written word. Hands-on is the only practical way I know of to outline it-though in my own stumbling way I do try to explain.
Cheers
Dan
Yes you I right I do not understand and since we are on either side of the pond,the hands on is going to be hard for me.

We practice from solid, i.e. you grab me I let you set yourself and then I do the technique.
Ie when I start the technique no-one is moving other that me doing the technique.
Do you mean something like repositioning yourself to end up in the same position as solid ?
phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 05-18-2009, 10:57 AM   #46
Flintstone
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hello Alex
I never stated people should not do ukemi. Re-read what I just wrote and you would not need to ask the question. But it keeps coming up.
I feel like hiring a pilot to fly it in a banner across the sky........
LEARN TO TAKE UKEMI....... PRACTICE TAKING UKEMI.......
Then....
wait...

wait....

Move on.

You don't need to spend the next twenty years of your life learning to fall down over and over. You need to spend the next twenty years learning to look a Shihan in the eyes and cancel out everything he can throw at you and make your own movements and waza all but unstoppable to the average...highly trained teacher. It's a better way. It's also healthier for the body. I have never met the man or woman from any art who has felt a hands on explanation who didn't want it. This to include teachers with decades of training in the art who themselves consider this training to be the essence of the art. The aiki that was aikido.
I dunno, it seems to be a smarter, healthier and more powerful way to practice aiki to me...then falling down. Practice to stand up, and keep challenging others to be good enough to do something to you to make you fall down.
You can end a conflict ...by falling down to escape, or instead of 'needing" to escape -you could cancel it out and control the situation from start and smile.
It's just a view.
Cheers
Dan
Agreed. Thank you!
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Old 05-18-2009, 01:49 PM   #47
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
....
You don't need to spend the next twenty years of your life learning to fall down over and over. You need to spend the next twenty years learning to look a Shihan in the eyes and cancel out everything he can throw at you and make your own movements and waza all but unstoppable to the average...highly trained teacher.
Dan
Hi Dan,

What you're explaining is still part of "ukemi"... falling is just a small part of ukemi (receiving body)... receiving force and knowing what to do while connected and part of that force is the really juicy part of the practice. The falling part helps us in the early part of learning (it balances out also by by taking our turn in helping others learn) how to receive instead of stopping what the other side of the connection is doing. High level training amongst older folks who possibly have injuries, etc. doesn't need to involve falling more than feeling the very early necessity to do so. In order to recognize and know where those places are in the deepest levels of consciousness requires experiencing lots and lots of falling. I haven't felt, seen, or heard of anyone that has this skill that has taken short cuts instead of lots of proper falling experience under the appropriate circumstances. These are just my experiences over a number of years and lots of falling... (I still miss it greatly!)

Best regards,

Chuck Clark
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Old 05-18-2009, 04:48 PM   #48
Allen Beebe
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

Great minds think (somewhat) alike . . .

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
What you're explaining is still part of "ukemi"... falling is just a small part of ukemi (receiving body)... receiving force and knowing what to do while connected and part of that force is the really juicy part of the practice. The falling part helps us in the early part of learning
Quote:
Dan Haren wrote:
LEARN TO TAKE UKEMI....... PRACTICE TAKING UKEMI.......
Then....
wait...

wait....

Move on. Lets assume for a moment what I am saying is real and viable...how is it not the absolute greatest ukemi ever invented? Worthy of every person in the art learning?
Scary!



When teaching Ukemi (receiving body) I like to consider different possible mind-sets:

Ukemi: Bottom line . . . I'm not here to give ANYTHING away I'm here to RECEIVE!

If I'm a professional, I (ideally) receive what I'm ORDERED to receive. Nothing personal here, just doing my job. This may occur head on or from some unknown distance where the only notification of my arrival may be the exploding of your head. Don't expect a fair fight. In fact if the fight seems fair somebody probably isn't doing their job properly!

If I'm receiving for personal gain that is another story. I may just wish to receive your stuff. I don't want a fight or a problem, just the stuff.

I may wish to receive recognition and approval. If this is the case I may make a show of my "campaign" if the sorce of my recognition and approval requires it.

On the other hand I may wish to receive something less tangible or not understood. I may wish to receive those you hold most dear, and in that process I may hope to receive your fear, awe and anguish. I may wish to receive the sounds of your pain and hopelessness as I torture you one way or another . . . and if I'm bored and it seems like the time to dispose of any implicating evidence I'll probably kill you out of convenience and necessity.

BTW, unless I'm out to seek attention, respect or approval, don't expect to receive any advance notice of my arrival. I don't dress or look a certain way. There'll be no ominous music growing in the background. I find that sort of pageantry gets in the way of my maximally receiving what I want. No, I'll be the one you least suspect, the one you didn't see coming. And, no, I probably won't be visiting Dan or Chuck anytime soon. Unless I'm a professional and ordered to do otherwise I prefer to prey upon those waiting to be culled from "the herd" due to some physical or mental weakness waiting to be exploited.

That's it really . . . blame Darwin! "Receivers" are a part of the circle of life . . . performing a public service . . . miss understood and unjustly maligned for simply performing their valuable roll in the Grand Harmony. Yeah, misunderstood. Folks should be grateful really! We're predators and decomposers . . . we're the wonder bread sandwiching the baloney life!

So if, in Aikido, Tori means "Taker," and an Uke is "Receiver" . . . and if Aikido is Love . . . then we just have "Takers" and "Receivers" in Aikido . . . where are the givers? Where's the love coming from? Where's the love in Aikido???????????



Sometimes I sit alone in the dojo at night with the lights out and wonder about stuff like that . . . *

Cheers,
Allen
*But more often I just sit alone in the dark and drink!

Last edited by Allen Beebe : 05-18-2009 at 04:54 PM. Reason: And if you "twist my arm" I'll receive another drink . . . no thread drift here!

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 05-18-2009, 09:49 PM   #49
DH
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Re: Kotegaeshi Ukemi

removed for editing
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-18-2009 at 10:03 PM.
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