Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Spiritual

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-17-2009, 09:57 AM   #26
jennifer paige smith
 
jennifer paige smith's Avatar
Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

To me, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What I see is a confluence of paths.

Quote fro Jordan Sensei:
[Finally in April, 2001, in Iowa, holding in one hand the experience of the Way of the warrior and in the other the vision I have decided to name my unique Christian Martial Art -- "YESHUA-DO]

Quote from Ueshiba Sensei
"I decided to name my unique budo (martial art) Aikido, although the word aiki is an old one. The word which was used by the warriors in the past is fundamentally different from that of mine."

Others are welcome to see it differently. For now, me and Jah are travelin' the Ai and Ai Path.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 03-17-2009 at 10:04 AM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2009, 10:09 AM   #27
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,091
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Nicely put, Drew. Interestingly enough I would say participating in Shinto, which came about accidentally through an interest in Aikido, has brought me closer to Christianity. Suffice it to say I've been very very critical of Christianity in the past.
Obviously this is just my own belief, but my relationship with Christ exists entirely in my heart. I live my life as best I know how...which means I will undoubtedly make mistakes in how I treat myself and my fellow humans, not to mention my supposed savior. My intent is always for Good to manifest, all the while knowing I have no reasonable/logical way of determining what is "truly" good...because I'm human and I'm dependant on my family and my society to fill me in on the world I happened upon at birth...before i began to make my own conclusions. That said, when i bow to O Sensei's image, I am not worshipping him as the pinacle of divinity (God-head), I am honoring him as but one result of that divinity...an archetype which represents something virtuous. In the same way, when I see a particularly beautiful flower or the kind of kindness which leaves me humbled, I thank whatever divine thing might be the source of such beauty and often beg pardon in case God cares more about what name I call Him than what is in my heart. In other words, my belief is that the particulars of form are meaningless, and the particulars of intent are everything.
This has been my way in and out of Aikido as it relates to spirituality.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2009, 03:28 PM   #28
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,407
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Nicely put, Drew. Interestingly enough I would say participating in Shinto, which came about accidentally through an interest in Aikido, has brought me closer to Christianity. Suffice it to say I've been very very critical of Christianity in the past.
Well, someone else was, too. He came around -- complete with the golden light and all, as it happens. Acts 17:21-28; 1 Cor. 12:4-11; Titus 1:15.

A great perspective on the Zoka Sanshin : http://www2.kokugakuin.ac.jp/ijcc/wp...mi/sasaki.html

Last edited by Erick Mead : 03-17-2009 at 03:37 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2009, 06:27 PM   #29
Joe McParland
 
Joe McParland's Avatar
Dojo: Sword Mountain Aikido & Zen
Location: Baltimore, MD
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 309
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

An observation: The doctrinal folks of different faiths take issue with how different they are, while the "spiritual" folks of different faiths tend to find their similarities.

Of course, the doctrinal folks and the spiritual folks *within* a faith are sometimes at odds with each other as well.

In any event, if you are *solid* in your faith, you can find yourself anywhere unhindered.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2009, 08:22 PM   #30
JO
Dojo: Aikikai de l'Université Laval
Location: Sainte-Catherine-de-la-J.-C., Québec
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 292
Canada
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Almost everybody in aikido has a worldview that is very different than O-sensei's. Seriously, how many devout Shinto mystics have you trained with. I often wonder if certain elements of O-sensei's beliefs and sayings have any relevance to my life at all. I'm a Bright (no supernatural beliefs), so I tend to take any discussions of ki, kami and unity with the divine as metaphor or I simply ignore it. However, as a freethinker I try to keep my eyes and mind opened to different ways of interpreting things.

I think the reason certain Christians tend to be the ones to agonize about differences between their worldview and that of O-sensei's is that they have a hell to fear and that if you believe yours is the one absolute Truth, that pretty much makes everybody else wrong. Many Christians seem to live in mortal fear of being led astray.

As the student of one path that has probably led more Christians out of the flock than any other (the science of biology), maybe they're right to worry.

Of course, they're also seems to be no lack of Christians capable of taking the parts of aikido, or biology for that matter, that fit their worldview and integrating them into their lives while training alonside aikidoka with all types of backgrounds and beliefs.

Then you have the Jeshua-do types that mold aikido to their beliefs and surround themselves with like-minded individuals. Personally, I'm not tempted to start an explicitly supernatural free aikido dojo. I prefer the diversity that comes with a broader cross-section of society.

Jonathan Olson
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2009, 09:01 PM   #31
Joe McParland
 
Joe McParland's Avatar
Dojo: Sword Mountain Aikido & Zen
Location: Baltimore, MD
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 309
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Free Thinker: another religion! When you tell us what you don't believe, that is your belief.

When the bokken is falling, do Free Thinkers move omote while Christians move ura?

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 03:05 AM   #32
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 581
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Quote:
Free Thinker: another religion!
Only if you choose to call a world view which excludes supernatural, a religion. I think that this approach dilutes "religion" to the point where it ceases to be a useful concept.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 05:07 AM   #33
Joe McParland
 
Joe McParland's Avatar
Dojo: Sword Mountain Aikido & Zen
Location: Baltimore, MD
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 309
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Only if you choose to call a world view which excludes supernatural, a religion. I think that this approach dilutes "religion" to the point where it ceases to be a useful concept.
People who believe "religion" is a useful concept attack from ai-hanmi, while people who don't attack from gyaku-hanmi.


  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 05:34 AM   #34
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,407
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Only if you choose to call a world view which excludes supernatural, a religion. I think that this approach dilutes "religion" to the point where it ceases to be a useful concept.
The supernatural is an emergent property of nature, not other than nature may be, but other than it has been, yet. It is an entry of real novelty into the system. The source of novelty is and remains a mystery, to both doctrinal religion as to doctrinal science. It is not known to any doctrine that can be taught, but it is known in faith.

If you deny that an emergent property can be, simply because you haven't seen it before, well, that is not a logical objection, it is to be expected -- emergent forms or properties are not predictable from the linear summation of what generated them. They occur almost exclusively in recursive systems, chaotically but deterministically, and not with any linear predictability.

Recursion, or a reflexive function, is an aspect of the observer problem in fundamental physics. If we accept that observation is a necessary component of the reduction of reality to a single state, in each moment (in each wave-function comprising it and this seems to be empirically the case, despite all efforts to reduce the observer out of the system) -- What then, is doing the observing? More accurately, since we cannot seem to define an observer in other than personal terms, WHO is it then, that is watching ?

Aikido, in its takemusu aiki aspect, represents the emergent forms of interaction from joining in well-trained aiki, not planned and executed techniques, and not predictable, but highly aware, and reflexive in awareness, composing both the objective (attack) and subjective (connecting without resisting) into one recursive system that takes on a life of its own, in ways independent from the explicit parameters of the separate components as they entered into the system.

Divine technique, like the man said. It is the universal situation painted in a personal miniature.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 05:36 AM   #35
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,407
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
People who believe "religion" is a useful concept attack from ai-hanmi, while people who don't attack from gyaku-hanmi.
Mugamae?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 06:02 AM   #36
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 581
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
The supernatural is an emergent property of nature, not other than nature may be, but other than it has been, yet.
By supernatural I meant "that which is beyond rational comprehension". The post was with this definition in mind.

I am not sure why you bring up recursion and non linearity. From my distant uni. days these subject fall solidly within the disciplins of fractal geometry, measure theory and so on. While challenging and difficult no one claims that they are beyond human comprehension.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 07:26 AM   #37
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,407
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
By supernatural I meant "that which is beyond rational comprehension". The post was with this definition in mind.

I am not sure why you bring up recursion and non linearity. From my distant uni. days these subject fall solidly within the disciplins of fractal geometry, measure theory and so on. While challenging and difficult no one claims that they are beyond human comprehension.
Ah-ah. Sneaky. You neatly elided "rational comprehension" into "human comprehension." Those are not the same things, at all.

Are they really contained by rational comprehension? Determine whether a point in the complex plane is on the Mandelbrot set, and then tell me the solution of the set at that point without selecting a magnification scale of the structure. It can't be done without computing it at a given magnification, very precisely, and yet the pattern itself is coherent, and identifiable (and indeed beautiful) but not merely rationally so. A decent artist familiar with the pattern could more easily draw you a figure approximating a location that is demonstrably on the set (if you analyzed the algorithmic consistency of the geometry of the resulting figure), than you could computationally determine the same structure on the set from the algorithm without a scale and position. The eye sees much more than we can know about an image.

You are looking at the question as about "what we know," when the question is really about "what it is." "What it is" is more than a rational apprehension of reality. Ontological reduction has essentially failed, but it was a useful failure, as Whitehead and quantum mechanics showed programmatically and deterministic chaos and quantum mehcanics show empirically across scales -- in the microscopic aspects of non-locality, AND in the macroscopic aspects of chaotic processes, and emergent properties. The thought that there could possibly be non-predictable yet simply deterministic systems has been and in some quarters, remains, anathema. Niels Bohr said that "It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how nature is. Physics concerns what we can say about nature..."

That does not deny that there is a real reality, but that our powers of description of it are always exceeded by that reality, at what ever level of precision or quantification we try to apply. Nature slips from our grasp, and this aspect of nature is coincident with its supernature. It is supernatural because our understanding of nature does not encompass it, not because it is other than nature is. Supernature is simple a greater nature than we can know.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 03-18-2009 at 07:31 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 08:17 AM   #38
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 581
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

There is stuff out there that is not computable (in the technical sense), there is stuff out there that is not provable (in the technical sense) and there is stuff there that is uncertain and non deterministic and non local (in the technical sense). These are mathematical facts and accepted physical theories.We gained these insights through a rational process.

Perhaps there is a vagueness about what rational means, here is an example of how I think about this: Godel demonstrated a mathematical fact that is true and not provable in mathematics (skipping "some" details here). The fact that it is true can be "rationally" explained to and comprehended by, a bright ten year old.

If you want to call those aspects of reality that can not be proved, determined, computed etc... supernature, that's Ok. Somewhat overloaded with meaning but Ok. I do not think however, that this supernature has enough "volume" to contain a religion in it.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 08:37 AM   #39
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,091
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Well, someone else was, too. He came around -- complete with the golden light and all, as it happens. Acts 17:21-28; 1 Cor. 12:4-11; Titus 1:15.

A great perspective on the Zoka Sanshin : http://www2.kokugakuin.ac.jp/ijcc/wp...mi/sasaki.html
Fascinating reading, thanks Erick! Ogenkide!
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 10:39 AM   #40
JO
Dojo: Aikikai de l'Université Laval
Location: Sainte-Catherine-de-la-J.-C., Québec
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 292
Canada
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

I don't define the supernatural as those things I don't understand. The whole point of science is to try to understand natural phenomena we don't understand. It also has nothing to do with things that are obvious, easy to understand or intuitive. Science has shown that many natural phenomena follow consistent patterns that are completely counter-intuitive.

So what does not believing in the supernatural mean to me. Let me put it this way, I believe that the Universe contains all existence (by definition) and that all of existence is constrained by the same sets of rules and processes. There are no superheroes capable of escaping the laws of thermodynamics, nor are there omniscient gods capable of predicting random quantum events. I don't believe in these things (which is why I self identify as a Bright) because I have never seen any evidence of their existence (and as a freethinker I require evidence on which to base my beliefs; tradition, dogma and cultural norms just don't cut it for me).

Freethought is about how you come about your beliefs and says nothing about what those beliefs are, other than the belief that freethough is the best way to choose your beliefs. Everybody has beliefs, I have never suggested otherwise.

To get back to something related to aikido. The jokes about whether a Christian moves one way and au freethinker another does cut to an important point. Aikido is first and foremost a form of physical training. At a minimum it requires nothing more than a body to train. Which is why, all this philosophical nonsence aside, we should all still be able to train together.

Jonathan Olson
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 05:01 PM   #41
BAP
Dojo: Union University Aikido
Location: Jackson, TN
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 40
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
To get back to something related to aikido. The jokes about whether a Christian moves one way and au freethinker another does cut to an important point. Aikido is first and foremost a form of physical training. At a minimum it requires nothing more than a body to train. Which is why, all this philosophical nonsence aside, we should all still be able to train together.
I do agree that in the basic sense that aikido when defined in the aspect of physical training by itself, that we should all be able to train together. At the same time I think we can all agree that aikido does have some specific religious/philosophical foundations as set froth by its founder. Yet it is not itself inherently religious, in the basic physical training aspect of the art.

The question then becomes can aikido become a religion at least to the individual participant. The answer to this question would appear to be yes. I am sure that probably half the people who read this will strongly disagree. The problem is in defining exactly what religion is. The common definition of religion does revolve around aspects of some understanding of God or gods. Other definitions of religious only require the aspect of sacredness in the thing (this could include nature itself, cultural standards, some other set of beliefs either held individually or by a larger group). Normally these beliefs are so strongly held that they affect the way the individual makes their individual decisions in various areas and aspects of their life. Thus religion, in my own understanding of the term, is like the lens through which all the other aspects of your world around you are viewed and when making decisions by which the options are weighed.

Religion also becomes the basis on which we make decisions today based on future events and consequences which we have no true basis of knowing empirically what the end result will be. This is the element of faith. Each of us, just in the process of living, has to exercise faith, the question then becomes what is it that we base our faith on. Faith can be religious based or not. The fact remains we each make these sort of decisions every day both in the choices we make, and also in what alternatives we decide to reject.

Whether aikido is at a minimum religious if not a religion is a determination made on an individual basis. Aikido becomes what we each let it become in our own lives, like a statue it becomes what we make it, it can either be a paper weight or an idol. When it becomes the lens which we view all our other relationships and base our important decisions then I believe at least in that circumstance that it could be called a religion. For those who choose to keep their religion separate and treat aikido as a paper weight instead then that is what it is and will remain for that person.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 05:23 PM   #42
Joe McParland
 
Joe McParland's Avatar
Dojo: Sword Mountain Aikido & Zen
Location: Baltimore, MD
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 309
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Quote:
Blair Presson wrote: View Post
[Lots of reasonable stuff.]
When I practice aikido, it is neither a religion nor not-a-religion (a.k.a., "paperweight" ). While engaged in the practice, what would make such a distinction is otherwise clearly occupied.

Some may argue that this is one of the great lessons of aikido --- one interpretation of the art's name itself.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 07:04 PM   #43
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,407
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
There is stuff out there that is not computable (in the technical sense), there is stuff out there that is not provable (in the technical sense) and there is stuff there that is uncertain and non deterministic and non local (in the technical sense).
Nigh on Rumsfeldian.

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
If you want to call those aspects of reality that can not be proved, determined, computed etc... supernature, that's Ok. Somewhat overloaded with meaning but Ok. I do not think however, that this supernature has enough "volume" to contain a religion in it.
There is the error. You assert that the limits of your perceptibility (not what you do or have perceived but CAN perceive) are sufficiently large in "volume" to leave only a negligible "volume" of events or processes inobservable (by you or any of us). There is no a priori way to state the limits of events or processes you cannot observe. There is no way to limit by any a priori method the "volume" or size of the class of events or processes that you cannot observe -- we simply know (thanks to Godel and Heisenberg) that there are classes of such events or processes that are inobservable, and nonetheless demonstrably REAL.

Now the kicker-- Bishop Berkeley's point brought up to date by Whitehead : If they are not observable but are real -- what about the observer problem that exists for all other classes of real things? It is not a "god of the gaps," WE are in the "gap" because the "volume" beyond our perceptibility may very well be inexpressibly large -- we cannot say. Cantor showed that even infinite sets can have different sizes.

The metaphysical premise of religion involving personal deity as observer ( if not more) is NOT physically dispensable -- until you can reduce the observer problem out of existence for the class of real objects or processes. This was Whitehead's essential conclusion. He could not do it, much though he tried. Nor has anyone else.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 09:19 PM   #44
BAP
Dojo: Union University Aikido
Location: Jackson, TN
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 40
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Thanks. I agree that there is a wide spectrum between the paper weight (as the lowest most base level) and the idol... aikido can very rightly be appreciated for its concepts and as art along with its utilitarian (budo - martial) element, yet not reach the level of "religion" for the person.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 09:37 PM   #45
Joe McParland
 
Joe McParland's Avatar
Dojo: Sword Mountain Aikido & Zen
Location: Baltimore, MD
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 309
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Blair, I agree that there is a full spectrum of thought and consideration that can be assigned to one's practice.

And when you encounter someone else holding a different thought about his practice, conflicts such as the OP's arise.

So, is aikido what you *think* aikido is, or is it something different?

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 02:22 AM   #46
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 402
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Quote:
Blair Presson wrote: View Post
.. At the same time I think we can all agree that aikido does have some specific religious/philosophical foundations as set froth by its founder.
What are they?

Not a simple question ... M.Ueshiba seemed not to make clear his opinions on that, and perhaps, sometimes, he fibbed.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 02:27 AM   #47
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 402
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Sorry to go back some pages, but I must disagree with this (common) view ;
Quote:
Brian Dunlap wrote: View Post
umm im not quite sure what the conflict between aikido and christianity is? i dunno maybe i havnt gotten deep enough into aikido to understand the conflict but it seems to me that taking care not to hurt someone whos trying to hurt you is very christianlike...
Didn't Jesus say "turn the other cheek"? : Implying submission to assault will have a transforming effect on the agressor. He seemed to abhor even the smallest violent resistance.
And wouldn't Ueshiba have broken an agressor's arm or head, then imply that wasn't really contention or violence?

I don't see Jesus' recorded teachings as similar to M.Ueshiba's recorded comments.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 04:33 AM   #48
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 581
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Yes, that "volume" argument is quite weak. Note though, that Heisenberg's realm is the quantum level and Godel's is the "non interesting statemets about mathematics", so there is a subjective sense of smallness. I do not have the Good Book with me right now, but as far as I remember Dawkins rejects a personal deity on grounds of probability.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 08:07 AM   #49
BAP
Dojo: Union University Aikido
Location: Jackson, TN
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 40
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Joe, exactly what aikido "is" appears to devolve into the same argument regarding apprehension and understanding which the question of what religion "is". If you randomly asked five people in this forum to define aikido I think you would get five at least slightly, and possibly highly, different responses.

The answer to your question would have to be that aikido for me is what I want it to be, what it is for someone else could be much more expansive in nature. Aikido is often described as the "way of peace" or "harmony" these principles if that "spiritual" aspect is what motivates some people and attracts them to the art then you are seeking more from aikido than others may. The harmony and blending are integral to the physical application of th art itself (along with atemi) which does separate it from other martial art forms. I use the term spiritual to refer to the wider application of these principles as part of ones world view, and ordering your life generally outside of aikido based on its principles.

As a Christian i am not looking or seeking to apply aikido as a world view, or applying its principles in a spiritual sense in my own life. I became involved in aikido initially as a form of exercise which also provided some possibility for self-defense as well. Since I have been taking the art I have become increasingly aware of how very refined nature of the art is, and what is required just to begin to develop the physical application aspects of aikido.

A number of posts also seem to equate the general principles and philosophy of Christianity and aikido, to imply that the two are in many respects no different. Superficially at least that argument can be made, since both do stress the importance of "peace" and "harmony". Yet the same statement can be said for any number of different religions, philosophies, and ideologies. Many have as their basis the search for peace, harmony, and truth. How it is that each sets the path for reaching that goal which is important. As a Christian that path is itself through Christ Jesus, which in turns affects how I make my decisions, which would be materially different than if I had another spiritual foundation, though many of the same outward objectives are present in each. For one thing even though peace and harmony are important, it is not the only or overriding idea, at least in the form of Christianity which I have received. The same Jesus who did teach that we should turn the other cheek, also turned over the tables of the merchants in the temple. The aspects of both grace and judgment are essential within Christian doctrine, and are not mutually exclusive to one another.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 08:07 AM   #50
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,407
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding our own way in and out of Aikido

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Yes, that "volume" argument is quite weak. Note though, that Heisenberg's realm is the quantum level and Godel's is the "non interesting statemets about mathematics", so there is a subjective sense of smallness. I do not have the Good Book with me right now, but as far as I remember Dawkins rejects a personal deity on grounds of probability.
"small." Interesting thought, however, while incrementally small it cannot be denied that quantum increments are computationally VERY LARGE, spanning the entirety of your "knowable" reality of mass, energy and indeed even a vacuum flux.

Do you believe just because Dawkins says it? ("Credo quidquid dixit ________ ...") [Google it, if you have no Catholic background] Sounds like you just changed the names in the blank.

And is a probabilistic (i.e. - linear) analysis appropriate to a stochastic or chaotic system? When a "trivial" variation from the average can produce a disproportionate alteration in the computational result, linear probability is not a terribly useful tool. The number of possible linear solutions to a truly chaotic probability distribution is uncommonly large. You might catch some tufts of hair, but the beast slips your snare --- and this is of a piece with the quantum problem which has cast its own finely woven net over every aspect of the macrocosmos -- the problem is one problem -- not two different problems.

And because of non-locality, we cannot rule out that what we see as discrete "small" units of quantum process are but "splintered" irruptions into our scheme of perception of an "elsewhere" connected whole. Certainly Bell's Inequality suggested this, and that was David Bohm's extended solution building from that, in which he also posited the nature of human perception.

Some part of the being, the existence, of the quantum process seems also present "there," but not directly perceptible "here." Part of the balloon is stuck through a very narrow hole in a wall. In fact, the whole net of the universe has balloons shoved through its all of its openings. Pushing and prodding a ballon to try and measure the whole thing makes portions of it recede from view beyond the threshold of that barrier, by the very act of trying to capture it. The fact that we seem unable to effectively "drag" the remander of whole through the hole to our side (despite deploying energies not seen "here" since the Big Bang in places like CERN), suggests that portion on the other side is at least equal to, if not far larger than, the part on our side. I am on sound scientific ground at the very least to assert that there is a "there" there.

Either that, or it's turtles all the way down ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:53 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate