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Old 03-16-2009, 04:08 PM   #26
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
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Re: The speed of a technique

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
So I think it is best to stick with teachers that seem to be on the same page so to speak. Then the experience with one seems to compliment rather than interfere with your experience of another.
Hi George,

Stick away! Makes sense to me, especially keeping in mind your years* of experience. I'm not sure I would recommend eclecticism to someone that doesn't have a rack upon which to hang a variety of hats yet though.

I kind of think of input from others like a Venn Diagram. In this case, to be useful, there should be lots of overlap between the different circles. Nevertheless, one should expect, and I think not neglect, the areas that lay outside commonality. It is the uncommon that defines greatness after all!**

Trying to bring this back on thread . . . I'll try to relate a quote from a Federal Marksmanship trainer: "Slow is Fast, Fast is Smooth, Smooth is Accurate . . . or Quick. I can't remember, but you get the idea.

Have fun this weekend!

All the best,
Allen

*and years, and years, and years I think you'll always have at around 5 years on me age wise at least!

**and being "uncommon" is about as close to greatness as some of us may ever get.

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 03-16-2009, 04:23 PM   #27
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
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Re: The speed of a technique

BTW, Hunter Lonsberry just Posted this in the Non-Aikido Thread:

"I like the logical steps Mike used to build upon each preceding exercise. He gave plenty of hands on time with everyone for just about every exercise so each participant could understand what they were supposed to be experiencing along with providing feedback as to whether or not they were getting it."

I bet Mike appended his hands-on with Terminology as well. Sounds like a formula that works . . . maybe it will catch on!

For those cynics out there lurking. I haven't met Mike yet . . . but if he wanted to pay me lots of money for the free plug I'd gladly accept!

Just thought it related to the drift.

Cheers,
Allen

Last edited by Allen Beebe : 03-16-2009 at 04:24 PM. Reason: Spelled Lonsberry wrong!

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 03-16-2009, 06:29 PM   #28
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
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Re: The speed of a technique

This from Tom Wharton:

1. *Perhaps there is some wiggle room here for the coach that "can't do" but can teach others "to do." (And then there's me that can't teach "doo doo!" – Hey, I want my money back!

2. It’s: “Fast is slow, slow is smooth, smooth is quick”

Response from Allen:

1. Money? When did you ever give me money?

2. Thanks! (Sounds like my proctologist!)

Allen

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 03-18-2009, 09:07 PM   #29
Dan Rubin
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Location: Denver, Colorado
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Re: The speed of a technique

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I got the "inside" and "outside" terminology from Ushiro Sensei at the first Expo. Once I had worked out what he meant, it changed my Aikido entirely.
George,

Can you talk about this some more?

As my previous post illustrated (I hope), Koichi Tohei Sensei contributed much to aikido training by organizing his instruction around various lists and explanations that form a "language" of Ki-Aikido. But apparently you are talking about a level of vocabulary that is much deeper and more sophisticated.

Dan
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Old 03-19-2009, 06:41 AM   #30
philippe willaume
 
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Re: The speed of a technique

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Hi Phil,
Western fencing, in its past, had a lot of theory; massive volumes were written by European fencing masters. I am not sure what happened but at some point most of that disappeared from modern fencing which is quite non-cerebral these days.

My wife and I met on-line and our initial e-mail exchanges were about the relationship between the two opponents in the martial interaction. She is a former national champion fencer. She started Aikido with Kimberly Richardson Sensei specifically to try to develop a vocabulary to describe what she did in her fencing. Western fencing has terminology to describe basic things like timing. They have terminology that equates to sen no sen, go no sen, sen sen no sen, etc. But they have little or no descriptive terminology for the "intuitive" or psychic aspect of the art, which means it can't be taught. Genie is convinced that the great fencers all do some version of what she does but they just don't talk about it at all. Her ex, who was her coach, told her that "It works for you, but it won't work for anyone else." I think she feels somewhat vindicated by her exposure to Aikido and Systema in which this stuff is an integral part of the practice.
- George
Hello
Not that I am that experienced in both aikido and Ringeck fighting method but I definitely agree with you.
For example if you want to strike according to ringecks manual putting the tactical advices, the mistakes the baddy is doing. You end up striking as you are with the aki-kenů.
It is as if you sort of need one to understand the other, if you see what I mean

phil

PS as far as I can tell modern foil is coming from small 19th century French small sword, modern sabre from Italian 19th duelling sabre (or possibly polish sabre), Epee being a mix of the two.
The rules and scoring without electric scoring emphasised some aspect of "military fencing and makes some other redundant. Even though the "fleche" remains true to historical fencing "times" ie hand then body then foot or feet.

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 03-19-2009, 11:16 AM   #31
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: The speed of a technique

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Hello
Not that I am that experienced in both aikido and Ringeck fighting method but I definitely agree with you.
For example if you want to strike according to ringecks manual putting the tactical advices, the mistakes the baddy is doing. You end up striking as you are with the aki-kenů.
It is as if you sort of need one to understand the other, if you see what I mean

phil

PS as far as I can tell modern foil is coming from small 19th century French small sword, modern sabre from Italian 19th duelling sabre (or possibly polish sabre), Epee being a mix of the two.
The rules and scoring without electric scoring emphasised some aspect of "military fencing and makes some other redundant. Even though the "fleche" remains true to historical fencing "times" ie hand then body then foot or feet.
Genie, my wife, was a champion epee competitor. She told me that with the advent of the electric switch on the tip of the foil and epee the Russians completely redid the art, much to the consternation of the classical fencers like her French Master. Since the object was to depress the switch at the tip in order to score, whole movements were developed that would have had nothing to do with the use of the epee as a weapon. For example, you could put such a wave into the sword that the blade would flex so greatly that the tip would actually hit your head from behind you and the tip would depress and score. Totally removed from martial application as a technique...

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 03-19-2009, 02:41 PM   #32
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
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Re: The speed of a technique

What's interesting about the changes that happened with electric scoring methods in fencing (to me at least) is that while it is true that they moved the sport further from its combative past, one could make the argument that it was still in keeping with the spirit of the sport. It's my understanding that for a rather long time while dueling was still a relatively common way to "settle it" there were laws in place that said that you could still be held accountable for the death of your opponent should you kill them in a duel. Now, if they just happened to die of an infection from the giant puncture wound you put in their arm, well that's no one's fault but God's. As a result, the *art* of dueling changed with the rule change to "first blood" contests. Dueling swords became long and square to punch a big hole in someone, but not be enough to kill them outright. Fencing the *sport* really traces its ancestry to this kind of dueling rather than battlefield combatives. Putting the pressure sensor on the end certainly encouraged the dreaded 'whip' point (and as someone who fenced for a time in HS, the only thing worse than having someone tap you from behind with one of these was to get hit by a bad attempt, ouch...), but one could argue that this may have even counted in a first blood duel.

It at least seems a more logical continuation of an idea than the slapping point scoring *strikes* that one sees in kendo relative to the slicing cuts that one finds in the older arts that it claims as its cultural heritage.

Apologies for the continued thread-drift.

Chris Moses
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Old 03-19-2009, 03:49 PM   #33
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: The speed of a technique

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
What's interesting about the changes that happened with electric scoring methods in fencing (to me at least) is that while it is true that they moved the sport further from its combative past, one could make the argument that it was still in keeping with the spirit of the sport. It's my understanding that for a rather long time while dueling was still a relatively common way to "settle it" there were laws in place that said that you could still be held accountable for the death of your opponent should you kill them in a duel. Now, if they just happened to die of an infection from the giant puncture wound you put in their arm, well that's no one's fault but God's. As a result, the *art* of dueling changed with the rule change to "first blood" contests. Dueling swords became long and square to punch a big hole in someone, but not be enough to kill them outright. Fencing the *sport* really traces its ancestry to this kind of dueling rather than battlefield combatives. Putting the pressure sensor on the end certainly encouraged the dreaded 'whip' point (and as someone who fenced for a time in HS, the only thing worse than having someone tap you from behind with one of these was to get hit by a bad attempt, ouch...), but one could argue that this may have even counted in a first blood duel.

It at least seems a more logical continuation of an idea than the slapping point scoring *strikes* that one sees in kendo relative to the slicing cuts that one finds in the older arts that it claims as its cultural heritage.

Apologies for the continued thread-drift.
Hi Chris,
Genie would certainly agree with you. Her feeling is along the lines that sure, the physical techniques have changed, but internal essentials of guts, bravery, conditioning, sensitivity, etc are still there so it's still a martial art even though the deadly consequences have been removed, it's still combat and the competitors certainly treat it that way.

Ushiro Sensei, and others, would disagree with this. He goes on at length in his book about the difference between Sport and Budo. O-Sensei would have been in total agreement with his point of view I am sure, which is why most styles of Aikido do not have comperition.

Yanagi Ryu, as an example, is old school as well. They don't use iaito in their training despite the obvious safety advantage because it changes the level of mental tension which should accompany being a fraction of an inch from injury or death.

Anyway, this debate has been going on for a long time and won't be resolevd at any point that I can anticipate...

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 04-06-2009, 05:09 PM   #34
Robert Cowham
Dojo: East Sheen Aikido and Kashima No Tachi
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Re: The speed of a technique

Quote:
Dan Rubin wrote: View Post
As my previous post illustrated (I hope), Koichi Tohei Sensei contributed much to aikido training by organizing his instruction around various lists and explanations that form a "language" of Ki-Aikido.
My introduction to aikido was driven by reading "Ki in Daily Life" by Tohei Sensei. As it happened I was in Italy, and in the back was a list of local dojos - so I had 6 months with a local dojo, before leaving Italy.

Inspite of having very seldom done "ki-aikido" over the last 20 or so years, I am really coming back to Tohei sensei's basic points (can't remember the order):

- relax
- keep one point
- keep weight underside
- extend ki

However, my understanding of the above is "just a little" different to what it was when I started. In addition, I would add a principle (learned from Suganuma sensei):

- maintain connection (musubi) - to partner('s centre) and (from Mike Sigman et al), to ground

When I am able to keep an open mind, teaching a class often gives me new ways to explain the feelings that I am aiming for. As George says, I can at least get them feeling the difference between examples (good and bad) - even if their ability to reproduce the "right" example is perhaps somewhat random to start with.

Robert
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