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Old 02-13-2009, 11:15 PM   #1
aikishrine
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Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

I was wondering, of the people out there who have tried both arts and may still train in both, do you find it easy or hard to incorporate the enter and turn movements of Aikido with the push and pull philosophy of Judo?
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Old 02-14-2009, 04:28 AM   #2
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
I was wondering, of the people out there who have tried both arts and may still train in both, do you find it easy or hard to incorporate the enter and turn movements of Aikido with the push and pull philosophy of Judo?
funny you should mention that - I was just thinking about the combo actually.

Interestingly enough, it would appear that many of the original Shihan had a Judo background...

In saying that, my instructor, (4th dan Aikido), also is dan ranked in Judo. And as I think about it, it would appear that he incorporates the idea into the art smoothly.

I never really thought about some of the moves before in this light, per say, but now looking at it, it seems that some of the moves have what you would call the 'push' / 'pull' philosophy in it.

So, at the end of the day, suppose it integrates nicely...but at the heart of it all, not to surprising if you ponder Toheis philosophy of body follows mind, and flow, etc.

What I mean is even Tai Boxing could work well within the framework. Heck, I wouldnt mind learning some Judo from my organizations Aikido head. It seems it would help me with (understanding of) some of the 'flow' and movements of Aikido.

Again, these are just some ponderings I have had as well - no direct experience with Judo really.

Be interesting to hear some input from dan holders of both arts.

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
At the end of the day, the arts, Judo, BJJ, Aikido, are all related...so there should be some way of integrating them.

Last edited by dalen7 : 02-14-2009 at 04:30 AM.

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Old 02-15-2009, 09:45 AM   #3
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Judo isn't about push and pull. There is just as much turning and entering

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Old 02-15-2009, 02:10 PM   #4
aikishrine
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote: View Post
Judo isn't about push and pull. There is just as much turning and entering
Well the fudamental philosophy behind Judo as far as i am aware is push when pulled and pull when pushed. I agree that there is some Irimi and Tenkan movements as well but that they are not stressed.
Thanks for your reply

Last edited by aikishrine : 02-15-2009 at 02:11 PM. Reason: mis spelling
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Old 02-15-2009, 05:54 PM   #5
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

That is just as much a gross simplificaiton as saying aikido is based on your partner grabbing your wrist in a a defined manner. A better simplification is that Judo places emphasis on Kuzushi while Aikido places emphasis on Irimi/Tenkan. The question would be, does Irimi/Tenkan lead to Kuzushi (or loss of balance) or does the breaking of Kuzishi allow you to turn and/or enter? Wel lat least that is my very simple shallow understanding of it. I may be 0 to 100% correct.

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Old 02-15-2009, 07:29 PM   #6
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

I actually practice three arts full time, Judo, BJJ, and Aikido. Only been doing Judo for a year, but have Shodan in AIkido and a Purple Belt in BJJ.

I find Judo to be my weakest area. I am fascinated by the method of approach to learning. Judo limits so much stuff yet allows you to operate in an alive environment in that it really forces you to concentrate on developing some good skills. I think that is why I am finding it very, very difficult.

The posture training, foot work and overall use of the body is absolutely outstanding!

I look at it as a firm building block that I wish I had paid attentiion to years ago, I might actually be good as a Martial Artist if I had learned these important skills.

I can certainly see where studying Judo would have been a good base for further aiki training.

Necessary to learn aikido? no, but it sure might have saved me a few years of suffering!

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Old 02-15-2009, 07:31 PM   #7
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
Well the fudamental philosophy behind Judo as far as i am aware is push when pulled and pull when pushed. I agree that there is some Irimi and Tenkan movements as well but that they are not stressed.
Thanks for your reply
To some it may be, but to be honest, the good guys I am with are all about kokyu and irimi and aiki...if you are simply pushing and pulling you are using strength and weight and that is very rudimentary.

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Old 02-15-2009, 10:04 PM   #8
aikishrine
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote: View Post
That is just as much a gross simplificaiton as saying aikido is based on your partner grabbing your wrist in a a defined manner. A better simplification is that Judo places emphasis on Kuzushi while Aikido places emphasis on Irimi/Tenkan. The question would be, does Irimi/Tenkan lead to Kuzushi (or loss of balance) or does the breaking of Kuzishi allow you to turn and/or enter? Wel lat least that is my very simple shallow understanding of it. I may be 0 to 100% correct.
I am just asking everyone a question. I dont have the answer myself, and probably never will. But what i will say is that from a training stand point in Judo the grappling doesnt lend itself well to irimi/tenkan movements as it does to the push pull philosophy, whereas in Aikido the hint of grappling, like the wrist grabs and such that are to be led and not to be allowed to be taken hold of that leads to irimi/tenkan as opposed to the push pull philosophy.

It is entirely possible that i am not expressing myself correctly, and for that i apologize.i may be 0 to 100% wrong as well, probably closer to 100% wrong. but i am still searching

Last edited by aikishrine : 02-15-2009 at 10:06 PM. Reason: mis spelling
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Old 02-15-2009, 11:00 PM   #9
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
I am just asking everyone a question. I dont have the answer myself, and probably never will. But what i will say is that from a training stand point in Judo the grappling doesnt lend itself well to irimi/tenkan movements as it does to the push pull philosophy, whereas in Aikido the hint of grappling, like the wrist grabs and such that are to be led and not to be allowed to be taken hold of that leads to irimi/tenkan as opposed to the push pull philosophy.

It is entirely possible that i am not expressing myself correctly, and for that i apologize.i may be 0 to 100% wrong as well, probably closer to 100% wrong. but i am still searching
Pushing and Pulling are not the pinacle of movment in grappling arts. To me it is a low skill thing that we try to improve upon. The upper level guys in jiujitsu do very little of it, but move and respond with little or no proprioceptive indicators that are caused by pushing or pulling.

Irimi/Tenkan are there in Judo. It is done in such a way that you may not notice it as the big motion you see it aikido.

It is about controlling the body cross, moving around it and breaking it down (kuszushi).

The better you get, the more sensitive you get to subtle feels of pushing and pulling. I will see if I can find some vids on youtube to demonstrate.

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Old 02-15-2009, 11:08 PM   #10
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Good demo video of Kimura. He is not doing much pushing or pulling, but lots of moving off the attack line, blending, dropping, and using his body.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVE82gH-v-g

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Old 02-16-2009, 09:30 AM   #11
aikishrine
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

A realy good video thank you for taking the time to track it down i enjoyed it.

Last edited by aikishrine : 02-16-2009 at 09:31 AM. Reason: quote not needed
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Old 02-16-2009, 01:06 PM   #12
aikishrine
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Well i watched the video a few more times, and while i see some irimi/tenkan movements i still see where the push/pull is still more in play. Now i realize that on this video and in most training situations it is done statically, and there wouldnt be the push/pull aspect visible, but in a dynamic or more of a combative situation one would wait until they felt thier opponent either pushing or pulling them, and then they would do the opposite.

I guess this may seem a simplistic way to look at things, but who says that it should be complicated? Please keep the feedback coming, thanks

P.S. i dont know the exact quote but i think the main maxim of Judo is maximum efficiency with minimum effort, sounds pretty simple to me.

Last edited by aikishrine : 02-16-2009 at 01:08 PM. Reason: added content
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Old 02-16-2009, 06:17 PM   #13
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Cool....no problems. In my experiences though, pushing and pulling are not maximum efficiency and minimum effort though. When you do these things, it triggers a response from your opponent that you now must over come and really doesn't get you very far.

Alot of this is perspective and semantics though for sure.

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Old 02-16-2009, 09:11 PM   #14
aikishrine
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

I guess when it comes right down to it, i will just keep training in both and enjoy them for what they are. Hopefully one day when i am a little wiser i will find the understanding i am looking for, but if i dont, oh well, its the journey thats important not the destination.
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Old 02-18-2009, 10:56 AM   #15
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Quote:
aikishrine Quote:
Well the fudamental philosophy behind Judo as far as i am aware is push when pulled and pull when pushed.
Opinions vary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFaKlEf6m4k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc27NHrIRp8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wsQE6K3a6s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dD6Xg9jCF1M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJsjE...eature=related

Last edited by bob_stra : 02-18-2009 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 02-18-2009, 11:29 AM   #16
aikishrine
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Thank you for the video links, i liked them all especially the nage no kata link. Please keep them coming.
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Old 02-18-2009, 12:15 PM   #17
Mark Kruger
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
I was wondering, of the people out there who have tried both arts and may still train in both, do you find it easy or hard to incorporate the enter and turn movements of Aikido with the push and pull philosophy of Judo?
I'm not sure what you mean by enter and turn movements. There are plenty of entries in judo... Many of the throws require you to get your center of mass under your partners. Either you lift and draw them, you enter under them, or some combination of both. Imagine trying to perform tomoe-nage without entering under uke and just dropping in place. Then you have driving variants of forward throws like kouchi-gari, ouchi-gari. Do you see a textbook tenkan? No. However turning movements, arcs, and circles are all over the place. A setup for foot sweeps is to draw your partner into an arc. All of the 'back' throws (e.g. ogoshi) involve a turn on the part of tori. There is an entire group of throws with 'guruma' in the name, literally, 'wheel'.

I also don't think that judo's philosophy is that of push and pull. Push and pull is one route towards breaking balance. There other ways achieving or finding broken balance. Taking advantage of broken balance is part of throwing with maximum efficiency. Maximum efficiency is one of judo's maxims.

The big challenge for me is dealing with the alive training. Of course the alive training is also part of what draws me to judo.

Respectfully,
Mark Kruger
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Old 02-18-2009, 03:42 PM   #18
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

If you want to see the principles behind judo (and for that matter most martial arts) look at the forms of five the itsutsu no kata. When I originally watched it being demonstrated by my aikido sensei (whom happens to be 7th dan judo and a Kodokan kata teacher and examiner) I thought it was aikido as it was so graceful.

You should bear in mind many of the Kodokan judoka were encouraged to learn aikido Jigoro Kano is reported to have said of aikido "That is real budo".

Have a look at youtube and the judo sites.

James
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Old 02-18-2009, 03:57 PM   #19
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMw_J...=en&emb=0&aq=f

B,
R and that is not even the best vid of him out there...

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Old 02-18-2009, 04:09 PM   #20
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Also look at Mifune (my sensei's old teacher) doing the forms of five

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdWvLDYlu48

and the great Jigoro Kano on the koshiki no kata

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1YLcINgAqE
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Old 02-18-2009, 04:23 PM   #21
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
I was wondering, of the people out there who have tried both arts and may still train in both, do you find it easy or hard to incorporate the enter and turn movements of Aikido with the push and pull philosophy of Judo?
Just to add, from what I can tell with Yoshinkan Aikido, its all about push and pull - so to speak. (people here who practice that art may be able to speak more directly to your question though.)

There are typically 2 movements for each technique with Yoshinkan, based on whether uke is pushing or pulling.

Peace

dAlen

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Old 02-18-2009, 06:31 PM   #22
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Quote:
James Wyatt wrote: View Post
Also look at Mifune (my sensei's old teacher) doing the forms of five

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdWvLDYlu48
This is an interesting kata. A lot of the current western Judo crowd examines the techniques of Judo and doesn't look (yet) into the fact that the body skills of the ju-jitsu ryu were more than technique. If it was just technique, there would not have been any reason to make a fuss of anything.... good techniques are common in any martial art.

In the Itsutsu-no-kata (this refers to sort of the "Kata of Five Elements" more than "5th Kata") the first movement involves a push. But look at the offset of the push. Why the offset? Look at Go-no-kata ("Go" also means "Five" in one sense, but they mean "Go" in the sense of "Hard" as in "Go versus Ju", "hard versus soft"). Here there are also some obvious pushes, but they are direct.

http://www.judo-educazione.it/video/...a_kodokan.html

What I'm getting at is that Aikido and Judo share the same roots, so what is in Judo is, in some variation from the original, the same things that are in Aikido. The difference is usually just a variation of degree. Kano's statement about Aikido being similar indicates that.

In the Itsutsu-no-kata, the techniques are more sophisticated. The offset push takes much more skill than a direct push. You're seeing more of the "shu-ha-ri" stages of development of skills. But within the development of skills is a lot of variations and I don't see Judo and Aikido and shuai jiao, Taiji, and many other arts as being much more than variations of the same basic theme. NOT that they're the same, by any means, but they are obvious variations of core themes. Kano thought so, too. "Push-Pull"? None of the arts, when done at a higher level, is that obvious. Sometimes we may underestimate various Asian martial-arts when we only see the techniques.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-01-2009, 07:59 AM   #23
92ilyas
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

According to Tomiki Sensei both the principles of Ju and Aiki are one and the same. He teaches us to think of things like this if we are attacked from a distance ie, punch, grasp or weapon we should respond with either atemi waza or kansetsu waza in other words Aiki techniques and when the attack comes from very close or on the ground then we should respond with either the groundwork or throwing techniques of Judo.

On the subject of Kata the fundamental 17 (ju nana no hon) of Tomiki Sensei's does have a couple of techniques very similar to some found in Koshiki no Kata and in one way or another any technique that we practice in Judo or Aikido will have a connection to the Itsutsu-no-kata one way or another as it demonstrates all the physical forces found in nature/universe. There is also the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu Kata developed by Tomiki Sensei that is also a fascinating study when properly practiced instead of muscled.
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:38 PM   #24
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Quote:
Joe Dexter wrote: View Post
According to Tomiki Sensei both the principles of Ju and Aiki are one and the same.
Hi Joe:

If it's not to much trouble, can you point me to some sort of citation regarding the above so that I can add it to my records? Thanks. Even a p.m. would be fine.

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-01-2009, 03:07 PM   #25
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

I think practicing the things in common that make for really good judo and really good aikido are going to imbue a much better overall skillset from a personal cultivation, combative effectiveness, and physical health & conditioning perspective - than trying to worry about what art does what. I think there's an appropriate time and place for preservation of things specific to a martial art - but not at the expense of becoming good or even "great" . . or in other words . . developing some basic skills that anyone that "does a martial art" should have some familiarity with . .
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