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Old 04-07-2002, 11:27 PM   #26
guest1234
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Carotid sinus massage, not a blow/strike, might slow the heart rate. In a person with a slow rate already, this might cause him to pass out. Might. Might. Might.

Carotid massage is occasionally tried to slow too rapid a heart rate in Emergency Departments. Sometimes it works. I've never heard of anyone passing out. We also try cold water submersion of the person's face in ice water, so with an equal amount of 'scientific' backing you could just toss your drink in the person's face rather than use a pressure point to knock them out.

I think the UL of a pressure point KO may be related to a rare individual, perhaps, as has been mentioned, a bit suggestible, who passes out from prolonged pressure on the carotid sinus (or that pressure actually blockingblood flow through the carotid), or just because he believes he should pass out.

I have a fairly slow rate (50's) and have tried carotid massage in myself just to see if I could block my heart rate down enough to become lightheaded, without success (OK, flight surgeons are not the sharpest tools in the shed, but we generally are curious and up for adventure)... now that is just a study of one, but enough for me to feel the statement 'it always works' is not quite right.
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Old 04-09-2002, 07:33 AM   #27
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
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Kyusho ..why it works/doesnt

I guess medically proven massage techniques of the twentieth century would be voodoo/ witch doctor magic in the nineteenth century world, but then again, we accept them at face value when properly used, don't we?

Key word. PROPERLY.

Electricity can stimulate or kill if used properly.

Colleen ... you really have to get to a seminar, or study some more. The books and information is out there, if you don't have the money for the bigger text, get the childrens defense book, which is cheap and shows the better, more use points anyway? Like ... most of the points we try to use in our Aikido techniques, how to use them, and what meridian they are on? You need three points on the same meridian to do the "knockout"?

Ronin, vagabond, usurper of the crown, these might be all things I am, and am not. But with Dr. Chas. Terry of Phila. PA helping to find clinical evidence of why these things work, having been there/ done that ... I think anyone can learn it if my thick head can learn it? (Unless you do an ostrich maneuver? Head in the sand?)

Never mind. Get comfortable in your practice, forget about the harmony and peace in the world by your going out to other MA and inviting them to learn Aikido. Let the walls remain in place.

I don't like walls without doors. I will continue to explore and learn, even if I get a hotfoot now and then for what I bring back to Aikido, I can take a hot foot now and then.
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Old 04-09-2002, 08:33 AM   #28
Kat.C
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Re: Kyusho ..why it works/doesnt

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker

Never mind. Get comfortable in your practice, forget about the harmony and peace in the world by your going out to other MA and inviting them to learn Aikido. Let the walls remain in place.

Bruce do you honestly believe that doing aikido will lead to world peace and harmony? Seems to me if a jerk takes up aikido or any other martial art he will still be a jerk. Just one who knows how to fight. Change comes from within, the martial arts can be a good tool but they do not bring about the change.
But that is just my opinion.
Kat
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Old 04-09-2002, 11:38 AM   #29
deepsoup
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Re: Kyusho ..why it works/doesnt

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Colleen ... you really have to get to a seminar, or study some more. The books and information is out there, if you don't have the money for the bigger text, get the childrens defense book, which is cheap and shows the better, more use points anyway? Like ... most of the points we try to use in our Aikido techniques, how to use them, and what meridian they are on? You need three points on the same meridian to do the "knockout"?
Here's a suggestion for you Bruce.

While Colleen is attending a seminar or skimming a book or two, you could go out and study medicine, full-time, for a decade or so. Maybe then you and she could discuss physiology as equals, if you see what I mean.

Sean
x
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Old 04-10-2002, 03:07 PM   #30
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
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Kyusho

If you guys want to Check with Dr. Chas. Terry of Philadelphia about the latest clinical tests for pressure points, or Mark Kline in Pisacataway, NJ, or Evan Pantazi in Peabody, Mass .... I am sure they will all give you mountains of reference material read, and talk your ears off with corrections to using Pressure points.

Reference also, demo clips on Dillmans DKI website, and I ordered a couple of books for you guys to examine, my treat.

Send me your mailing address and I will get them out to you. I ask DKI if they had any advertisement demo's, but the web clips might be the only visuals if you refuse to attend a seminar or go to a class? Check out a DKI school in his website, I am sure they are anxious to learn Aikido methods that neutralize use of pressure points, as we should be to add them to our repetoir/arsenal?

I don't want to bring down Aikido, but to add to it, enrich it, and keep it away from physically harming people advertantly or inadvertantly?

Hell, even Dillman has learned that sharing has enrichened his Karate, so why not share and enrichen Aikido, too?
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Old 04-12-2002, 08:21 AM   #31
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Kyusho

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
If you guys want to Check with Dr. Chas. Terry of Philadelphia about the latest ...

This fellow:

http://www.slrc.org/ourstaff899B.htm#drterry

Quoted from his bio:
Quote:
While an undergraduate at the University of Pennsylvania, Dr. Terry began teaching martial arts. He has been featured in Black Belt magazine and on the Good Day Philadelphia television program. He is currently a fifth degree Black Belt in Ryukyu Kempo karate, and both owns and operates a karate school near Philadelphia.
So, he has a vested interest in proving that kyusho-jutsu works. Sounds like he just disqualified himself as a valid evaluator in any real scientific inquiry.

I'm sure he's very good at what he does, and is probably a fine doctor, but other than someone vested in developing a positive finding, who else (an impartial third party with nothing to gain from proof of either point of view) has done the research?

Chuck

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Old 04-12-2002, 11:00 AM   #32
thomson
 
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Angry I've held back long enough.

Quote:
Colleen ... you really have to get to a seminar, or study some more. The books and information is out there, if you don't have the money for the bigger text, get the childrens defense book, which is cheap and shows the better, more use points anyway?
Bruce, you are an inconsiderate, childish boob. (yes I said "boob" cuz it's about as polite I as could maintain) You continuously degrade people that don't agree with you, while stubbornly holding on to ideas that are in many ways ridiculous. This quote topped it. How inane to suggest to a Doctor of medicine that she should study more on a subject (the mechanics of the human body) that she already knows more than you ever will.

Whatever.....I'm done. You can respond if you wish, as I'm sure you will. You seem to have a complex about getting in the last word. However, your not worth anymore of my time.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. - Sun Tzu
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Old 04-15-2002, 05:20 PM   #33
Bruce Baker
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Sounds of Kyusho and aikido?

How come we never got around to the similarities of "The Secret Sounds of Aikido" / Kototama?

I am agast at the simularities of different cultures have simular basic sounds that activate different movements?

What about the rowing exercise? (Don't mind my english interpretations, please. I am operating on reserve right now, long day .....)

I know John Stevens Sensei goes into the sounds and the basic kototama? I just thought that it was interesting how Kyusho sounds are very simular with only slight pronunciation differences to "The Secret Sounds of Aikido?"

Have any of you delved into these sounds while performing techniques as to enhancing or neutralizing performance of techniques during practice?

I did at the Kyusho seminar, and some weird changes in strength and resistence happened?
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Old 04-15-2002, 06:02 PM   #34
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by LOEP
So, he has a vested interest in proving that kyusho-jutsu works. Sounds like he just disqualified himself as a valid evaluator in any real scientific inquiry.

I'm sure he's very good at what he does, and is probably a fine doctor, but other than someone vested in developing a positive finding, who else (an impartial third party with nothing to gain from proof of either point of view) has done the research?
Below is the best I could do in regards to studies. It sounds like at best, there was a study which it seems could be debatable in terms of value, controls and I'm pretty comfortable was not done by a neutral third party. Mr. Pantazi is involved in the thread and his comments were....disappointing. Apparently, he doesn't feel that knockouts need to be proved by studies. Never mind that from what I know there is still massive research going on with regular KO's and concussions on the long term effects therein. Just ask professional football players and boxers.

His personal web site has no research listed either.

http://www.cyberkwoon.com/html/modul...5667&forum= 1

Research, links, anyone?
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Old 04-15-2002, 07:31 PM   #35
PeterR
 
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Re: Re: Kyusho

Quote:
Originally posted by LOEP
So, he has a vested interest in proving that kyusho-jutsu works. Sounds like he just disqualified himself as a valid evaluator in any real scientific inquiry.

I'm sure he's very good at what he does, and is probably a fine doctor, but other than someone vested in developing a positive finding, who else (an impartial third party with nothing to gain from proof of either point of view) has done the research?
Hi Chuck;

Hard core scientific realist speaking here. Try finding an impartial third party to do this sort of research - not much in the way of research funds so he must be intent on either exploring the validity of what he's learnt outside the field of medicine or has a bone to pick to try and disprove. I have a personal interest in what I do and based on what I learnt am constrained by that. Same same.

Its the old argument about study from within (insert belief system here) or without. I believe both have contributions and the value of what he does will stand or fall in peer review.

Finally a medical doctor is not necessarily a scientist. As far as his bio says he gives an occaisional lecture and writes an occaisional article. Did not see any wild claims by the good doctor.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-15-2002, 11:10 PM   #36
Erik
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Peter, just wanted to make a comment on your comments.

I think we as martial artists tend to take certain things for granted. We've all grown up around pressure points and stories of ki/chi as such and so to us it's not a big deal. It's like Christianity, whether there's a god or not, it's just there and mostly we don't think much about it. If god ever shows up, however, it will be a very big deal. I submit that ki/chi being measured and proven would be an event on a similar scale. Working pressure points, at least in the way Bruce seems to think of them, are not a non-trivial thing and if Mr. Dillman wants money for research then he should start knocking people out, outside of his seminars. He'll get his money for research (which I believe he claims has been done or there's a misunderstanding on my part) even if he has to absorb a few jail sentences.

Besides, the issue of ki/chi and meridians as such has already been pretty well addressed by science.
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Old 04-16-2002, 12:34 AM   #37
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Erik
Besides, the issue of ki/chi and meridians as such has already been pretty well addressed by science.
Hi Erik;

My last comments were only in regard to dismissing someones research because of a personal involvement, which may or may not translate into bias. I remember some earth shaking research on how Chimpanzee society was matriarchal and therefore peaceful - the bias of the researcher came out when other, spured on by the study, found something else. Same with what we are talking about here. It is possible, that a scientist even in good faith, is biased by his beliefs. The good news is that not everyone whose interest will be aroused has the same bias.

Just to remind I am not a member of the pressure point glee club but I have to disagree about science addressing the issue. There have been some wonderfully bad studies done in favour of ki, and a few very simple studies disproving certain claims. Accupuncture has been shown to have an effect in some cases (and not in others)and although there have been correlations found with human physiology the effect is still not adequetly explained. That of course doesn't mean it wont be.

Last edited by PeterR : 04-16-2002 at 12:36 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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