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Old 03-09-2009, 08:36 AM   #76
Dan O'Day
 
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Good points, Kevin.

I appreciate your response.

My point with all my posts is simple. Why is the practice of aikido so "compared"?

What's the difference between a "softer" version and a "harder" version?

I don't see any. It is what it is. What's the difference between a "serious" akidoist and a "hobbyist" aikidoist? Nothing. Who is the arbiter of which is which for anyone other than themself? Nobody.

Who is one's training about? Oneself.

Who is there to compete against? Oneself and only oneself.

Is the art contemporary? Yes. Otherwise it would be only discussed in historical terms.

Has aikido changed since its inception? Most certainly. What doesn't? I would hope most see the changes as those of evolution versus devolution.

What is my training about? It's about me. It's about how I relate to myself and everyone around me. On and off the mat. On the mat, there are more than enough challenges to last a lifetime. My own attempts to better my ukemi and become more and more sincere, and compassionate, with my reponse to attack. In the process of this work, forever trying to balance the incredible and perpetual Catch-22, in training, of what an attack and its response is, or ought to be.

Hmmm...maybe it's just the lack of first person expression which bothers me sometimes. When one trys to lump others into some category of real or non-real.

Yep. I think that's it. If I say something in first person, speaking of my own experiences and my own observations and how they relate to me, then it may be perceived differently than me talking about you, you, you and what you do or don't do.

I guess I feel I read alot of the "you, you" stuff here and that bothers me. Maybe if I had my aikido act more together it wouldn't, and I simply wouldn't bother ever visiting this site.

But hey, I'm still in training. I'm not perfect and don't really expect to become so anytime soon, haha.

So I once in awhile just feel a need to say, Hey man...what's up with that? Who are you talking about? Who are you to define who I am or what my aikido training is?

I may have only been in training for a few years but I have been on this Earth as a human for 47 years. I have lived in many places and met many people and have had many experiences and many wonders. And one thing I know for sure. That is everybody on this planet has a perspective worthy of respect, for we are all the same; born into this life of great mystery.

And so have you, you, and you had your experiences. So let's share them among each other versus telling each other how ours are somehow more profound or more "accurate" than the next persons.

Aikido is a great thing. In my life. I'm a West Coaster. I began my training in Santa Cruz and it now continues in Seattle. My teachers have all been phenomenal. All of my fellow students, sempai and kempai, have been and continue to be wonderful and incredible people and each and every one, I'm certain, has a slightly different take on what aikido is...to them. I guarantee that if I had begun on the East Coast and still lived there I'd be saying the same thing.

I welcome that. But as soon as someone starts telling me what aikido, or anything else in life, is to me; when they start defining what my experiences are from their perspective...well...that's when I call horseshit.

And I wonder what kind of training would lead a person to develop such thoughts? Is that real aikido?

Who can say? Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I know what's real for me, however. I know what's real for me.

Last edited by Dan O'Day : 03-09-2009 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 03-09-2009, 09:34 AM   #77
Guilty Spark
 
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Quote:
Dan O'Day wrote: View Post

What's the difference between a "softer" version and a "harder" version?
In my opinion this video demonstrates the difference between a soft and hard version of martial arts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8UKDzVmzt8

Now you won't find the bullshit at 0:25 in ALL soft styles of martial arts I'm sure but I don't think you'll find that in ANY hard style and there's a reason that.

Quote:
. What's the difference between a "serious" akidoist and a "hobbyist" aikidoist?
Both may love the martial art but I think the serious aikidoist will have a MUCH better chance of surviving an attack by someone intending to hurt them.
The serious student would question technique's more. Why does this work, more importantly why doesn't this work. How does it work against someone resisting fully..

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 03-09-2009, 09:53 AM   #78
Dan O'Day
 
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

I watched the video, Grant.

The redbelt guy didn't look like he was using aikido so I'm not sure what the deal is.

The victor in the match grabbed redbelt guy katate right before he pummeled him with head shots.

If you look at when redbelt is grabbed katate you can see he shirks rather than responds the way we are trained to in aikido from that grab so I'm not sure, again, about your reference tool.

In other words, none of it looked like aikido to me. The weird ukemi at the beginning of the video nor the actual match.

Of course the fact the redbelt guy accepted a challenege and therefore competed immediately negates any idea of what I've been taught aikido is.

So maybe much of the confusion I experience on this site simply has to do with reading what are vastly diferent views of what aikido is.

Regarding the "hobbyist" question your answer is interesting.

Interesting in that it is resolved in asserting "which" aikidoist would fare better in a real fight on the street, etc.

A senior instructor in Santa Cruz once told us a quick story during class. The story goes like this:

Two elder aikidoists, highly ranked and 70 years old or so, are sitting together. One asks the other, "Have you been successful with your aikido over the course of your life?" The other answers, "No. I have failed. I once used it on the street."

That little story tells it all for me. It explains the "not to fight" idea.
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Old 03-09-2009, 11:24 AM   #79
budo-dude
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

I am no expert but I have trained in a few different martial arts, none to a very high level at that. Mostly striking arts until last year when I started to train in Aikido. I've found my journey in Aikido is much slower going than when I was taking striking arts. Aikido is hard! It's even harder to use effectively. People say that it looks like uke is "letting" nage throw them. That is only partially correct. In fact, the whole reason that Aikido would not be an affective art in the UFC is that Aikido requires a full commitment by the attacker. A good sport fighter never commits 100% into their attacks. They stay balanced and attack in a fashion that would let them recover their balance if they happen to miss their target. This is the reason that you see Aikido techniques in many self defense systems like Krav Maga, Police or Military training. In the situations that those arts train for, the attacker is committing them selves to do you harm, maybe even kill you with an attack. They are giving 100% force and the Aikidoka uses 0% force to redirect them They aren't squaring off for a sporting match.

Sensei Roy Dean in Bend Oregon has some very logical and realistic ideas on the links between Aikido, BJJ and Judo. They are all rooted in Japanese Jujitsu. They are sister arts. It's all about ranges of combat. In the moment right before an attack, Aikido can be used to stop the attacker by blending with the attack and containing the opponent. If that fails and you get in a clinch situation, Judo take downs now come into play. If this does not work and you end up on the ground, BJJ will now help you out.

One last point I'd like to make is the context of any comparisons that people like to make between which art is the "best" art. What is the context? Are we talking about which art will help you in the UFC? If so the answer is definately BJJ. Your state of mind is an important part of your training. If you train in Aikido and you visualize every attack as a threat against you, you will get more out of your training. The thing is, in Aikido it is up to you to do this. Other arts that use sparring or rolling such as in BJJ, someone is physically coming after you and you are trying to stop it. This seems more "real" for some people and maybe it is but it is not real fighting. There are always rules.

People forget that true fighting, truely defending yourself against someone, in a life of death situation HAS NO RULES! If you are trying to kill me or a family member, I will do anything to stop you. You try to put me in your guard to set up a submission, I will reach down and squish your testicles, I will put my thumbs in your eye, I will strike you in the throat. Aikido has no rules. BJJ does. This sounds violent and I am not a violent person. Just a realistic one.

Any system with rules has weaknesses. There is not one perfect martial art. So to answer the initial question finally:

Aikido is a practical contemporary martial art...
BJJ is is a practical contemporary martial art...
Kali is is a practical contemporary martial art...
Tai Chi is is a practical contemporary martial art...
All arts are a practical contemporary martial art.

Any art that let's you express your physicality is practical and prepares you more than someone who does not train. It comes down to intent. What do you want out of your training? From my personal experience, the type of person that Aikido attracts is not usually the same type of person that BJJ attracts. If your intent is to train for self defense, do so. If you want to fight in the UFC, by all means train to do so. If it is to spiritually enlighten yourself then do so and don't worry about what people say about your art, whatever it may be.

Everyone has their own path to follow. For me, I have decided to supplement my Aikido with BJJ and Judo to be as prepared as possible for anything situation. I like the philosophy and intricacies behind Aikido. I like feeling like I could defend myself if I were ever required to. I like watching the UFC as the sport it is. I like sparring. I don't like REAL fighting but I want to be prepared for it.
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Old 03-09-2009, 12:56 PM   #80
Guilty Spark
 
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Hey Dan

I was making a reference in a more broad sense. Hard martial arts vs soft.
Using one's Ki to 'flip' an opponent from 15 feet away vice training against someone who isn't being polite.

As far as this applies to Aikido, I believe the harder styles are more (or can me more) in touch with reality as far as effectiveness goes in a self defense environment.

There's no requirement for an aikido style vs style debate but if you take some time and surf youtube you will come across Aikido videos that are very goofy and fake. I consider the fake videos a result of a softer-style training mindset.

Quote:
A senior instructor in Santa Cruz once told us a quick story during class. The story goes like this:

Two elder aikidoists, highly ranked and 70 years old or so, are sitting together. One asks the other, "Have you been successful with your aikido over the course of your life?" The other answers, "No. I have failed. I once used it on the street."

That little story tells it all for me. It explains the "not to fight" idea.
heh
I'm still wrapping my head around the whole idea of taking a martial art and considering it a failure when you use it.

If I were asked I would respond that I was successful with my Aikido since I've used it to save my ass and inflict a minimum amount of pain and injury on my attacker/s.

Regarding my answer about the hobbyist do you disagree that someone who views their martial training as just a hobby would likely fair less then a devoted martial artist?

Maybe we disagree because we have different views on what a hobbyist is and what a serious martial artist is?

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 03-09-2009, 02:53 PM   #81
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

I think you've missed completely what Dan was trying to tell, Grant.

Dan, happy to read your writing. We don't know each other, but I feel an air of familiarity with stuff that crossed my mind.

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Old 03-09-2009, 04:00 PM   #82
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Quote:
Kristian Fraser wrote: View Post
In fact, the whole reason that Aikido would not be an affective art in the UFC is that Aikido requires a full commitment by the attacker. A good sport fighter never commits 100% into their attacks. They stay balanced and attack in a fashion that would let them recover their balance if they happen to miss their target.
The bulk of my training is working with uke when they are perfectly on balance and totally stationary. A large part of my training is moving uke when they don't want to be moved using hips, movement and body mechanics.
In fact where I train if uke attacks and you screw up they usually tap you with a couple of punches, unless you've managed to unbalance them or react to your mistake before they can, which should be the case the majority of the time. They're always on balance unless I've unbalanced them.
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Old 03-11-2009, 06:51 AM   #83
Min Kang
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Cause they can't, cause it don't work that way in those situations. In fact, I have never actually been able to even get myself in a situation when shihonage would actually work. Sankyu on the other hand, well...it don't work so well either as a technique, although I have used it before in some instances in competition. ( I posted video of it on my blog.)

cause in reality it don't work either. Why, cause the other guy stops you from doing this in most cases. Noble ideal, but rarely does it work the way we want it to.

Love to see someone like yourself go to the UFC and show them. Funny how we have had no aikido guys actually demonstrate their superior skills.
Hey Kevin, thanks for sharing your thoughts... . As you know, my "take" on Aikido has changed over the years. I never doubted its effectiveness but then again, that might have been due to Bob Galeone being my first Aikido teacher.

Right now, I think Aikido as a "martial art" is explicitly illustrated in the concept of irimi: you atemi into the attack and take their balance, using the principles of time and distance (which means your "entrance" may actually be offline at an angle or even fading back depending on your relative speed/distance).

Taking the balance can be done with the subtlety of a perfectly timed movement but it can also be with the bluntness of a swordhand to the throat. And that strike is always implied - if you're not in a position to strike effectively, you can't do a technique.

"Technique" develops when: 1) you choose not to deliver that strike to vital point to kill or incapacitate; or 2) your strike is blocked or slipped or otherwise ineffective - in both instances, you use the uke's reaction to your implied or explicit atemi to "do" the technique. Which technique depends on your relative position and distance from uke.

The "problem" with discussing Aikido as a martial art is that from what I've seen, most Aikido folks can't hit worth a damn (and that includes me) and don't have the time or inclination to train to strike with power and focus. But without that ability, training becomes toothless. OTOH, Aikido stresses movement, distance and timing training, without which the best striker in the world is helpless.

So, my current understanding of Aikido as a martial art in the real world is: move off line to the attack, pick up a rock and hit him in the head, pin him and make sure he's not dead, and run away before the cops come. Multiple attackers, I would skip the pinning.

Peace,

Min.

They that have power to hurt and will do none,
That do not do the thing they most do show,
Who, moving others, are themselves as stone ...
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Old 03-11-2009, 07:15 AM   #84
Min Kang
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Just to be clear, my somewhat tongue in cheek comment above notwithstanding, to me, Aikido is about choosing not to strike, not to injure, not to kill in response to aggression. But in order for you to have that choice, you must be able to put yourself in a position and have the ability to strike, injure, kill.

They that have power to hurt and will do none,
That do not do the thing they most do show,
Who, moving others, are themselves as stone ...
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Old 03-11-2009, 09:55 PM   #85
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Hey Min, it was good spending time with you a couple of weeks ago discussing all this stuff!

Well since we both had the same teacher for many years, I suppose we certainly have the same outlook!

Bob, of course, is right and my studies in the last few years have only confirmed it.

I am trying to remember the things he used to tell us over and over. Move your feet (irimi), always attack, always win. Ukemi is for the other guy, and of course don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

you simply have to control the fight. You cannot control it unless you disrupt uke's attack and put him at a disadvantage. That is only possible by moving and changing your posture realitive to his (irimi) Irimi is prmary iMO. Even if you are attacking, you have to move to attack effectively. Of course sometimes we attack first to disrupt, but that is only so we can move (irimi). (Kuzushi)

Technique IMO is born out of position and response...it is secondary. It could be a choke, strike, or joint lock, or throw/takedown.

I think the problem many times when these things don't work is that we fixate on the techique and STOP moving or ignore the movement.

Bob used to get on us big time about stopping. I was a big problem for me for sure (and still is sometimes). Once you recieve proprioception from say a shomen, you plant your feet and stop. This is why most people say aikido fails. They never establish correct tactical realationship/connection prior to executing technique.

Technique becomes primary and is born out of the mind with intent and desire to do technique. It is not born out of the connection.

I hope that make sense!

I do hope we get on the mat together soon Min, it has been too many years and I need you to kick my ass around like you use to to keep me good and honest!

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Old 03-11-2009, 11:32 PM   #86
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Quote:
Min Kang wrote: View Post
Just to be clear, my somewhat tongue in cheek comment above notwithstanding, to me, Aikido is about choosing not to strike, not to injure, not to kill in response to aggression. But in order for you to have that choice, you must be able to put yourself in a position and have the ability to strike, injure, kill.
Just to be clear, I am curious how your Aikido let you choose not to strike, not to injure, not to kill in response to aggression, if you already have a skill to do it.
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Old 03-12-2009, 04:52 AM   #87
Min Kang
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
Just to be clear, I am curious how your Aikido let you choose not to strike, not to injure, not to kill in response to aggression, if you already have a skill to do it.
Umm... on one level, just because I *can* do something doesn't mean I must do it.

In order to do an Aikido technique, you have to be in a place where you can connect, and affect the partner's center. Which means that either you are in a position to strike effectively or passed through that position. So... you have an opportunity to strike but you choose not to.

And on a separate level, training in Aikido will hopefully give me the confidence, awareness, skill and faith that will lead to becoming a person who chooses not to meet aggression with aggression.

They that have power to hurt and will do none,
That do not do the thing they most do show,
Who, moving others, are themselves as stone ...
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Old 03-12-2009, 05:07 AM   #88
Min Kang
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
you simply have to control the fight. You cannot control it unless you disrupt uke's attack and put him at a disadvantage. That is only possible by moving and changing your posture realitive to his (irimi) Irimi is prmary iMO. Even if you are attacking, you have to move to attack effectively. Of course sometimes we attack first to disrupt, but that is only so we can move (irimi). (Kuzushi)

Technique IMO is born out of position and response...it is secondary. It could be a choke, strike, or joint lock, or throw/takedown.

I think the problem many times when these things don't work is that we fixate on the techique and STOP moving or ignore the movement.

Bob used to get on us big time about stopping. I was a big problem for me for sure (and still is sometimes). Once you recieve proprioception from say a shomen, you plant your feet and stop. This is why most people say aikido fails. They never establish correct tactical realationship/connection prior to executing technique.

Technique becomes primary and is born out of the mind with intent and desire to do technique. It is not born out of the connection.
!
Kevin, I agree with most of what you said, but have a slightly different take on a couple of things.

I think how we "practice" an Aikido technique is different from how we should be training in Aikido. In you shomenuchi example, I believe that the nage simply doesn't have enough time to process at ANY level, 1) the attack; 2) the nature of the attack; 3) appropriate technique/response; and 4) realize that response.

Rather, you perceive a threat, be it a strike, grab or usually, just the fact that someone is too close and triggered that tripwire - and you move offline and atemi/guard, when uke reacts, connection forms - and the your body does the technique appropriate to that spatial/timing relationship between you and uke.

But, man, I know what you mean about moving your freaking feet! It's all mental... there are some people (okay, Robert) when they attack, I root and block and don't move. And that's b/c I don't *believe* I can and I tense and fight. sigh...

I just have to get smacked around a little and hope I don't get injured in the process. Which is why it's a blessing to have folks around who are good enough to go full speed and not injure you.

It's unnerving but fun to skirt that edge

Last edited by Min Kang : 03-12-2009 at 05:10 AM.

They that have power to hurt and will do none,
That do not do the thing they most do show,
Who, moving others, are themselves as stone ...
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Old 03-12-2009, 06:47 AM   #89
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Hey Min, it was good spending time with you a couple of weeks ago discussing all this stuff!

Well since we both had the same teacher for many years, I suppose we certainly have the same outlook!

Bob, of course, is right and my studies in the last few years have only confirmed it.

I am trying to remember the things he used to tell us over and over. Move your feet (irimi), always attack, always win. Ukemi is for the other guy, and of course don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

you simply have to control the fight. You cannot control it unless you disrupt uke's attack and put him at a disadvantage. That is only possible by moving and changing your posture realitive to his (irimi) Irimi is prmary iMO. Even if you are attacking, you have to move to attack effectively. Of course sometimes we attack first to disrupt, but that is only so we can move (irimi). (Kuzushi)

Technique IMO is born out of position and response...it is secondary. It could be a choke, strike, or joint lock, or throw/takedown.

I think the problem many times when these things don't work is that we fixate on the techique and STOP moving or ignore the movement.

Bob used to get on us big time about stopping. I was a big problem for me for sure (and still is sometimes). Once you recieve proprioception from say a shomen, you plant your feet and stop. This is why most people say aikido fails. They never establish correct tactical realationship/connection prior to executing technique.

Technique becomes primary and is born out of the mind with intent and desire to do technique. It is not born out of the connection.

I hope that make sense!

I do hope we get on the mat together soon Min, it has been too many years and I need you to kick my ass around like you use to to keep me good and honest!
For what it is worth Kevin, I do totally agree with you on the technique being second to position. If you practice kenjutsu/medieval fencing it is glaringly obvious.
I believe it remains true on regardless the weapon, on foot on horse with and without armour.
We could say that regardless of the weapon, period and location most of the manuals try tor present that in one way or another.
The nach & Vor for medieval-16th century German tradition
The true times and true place for 17th century basket hilt of John Silver (sorry no parrot involved).

About being a practical martial art
In a discussion on bullshido, one guy made a remark that all, the guy that pretend aikido works had done (or were doing) either a punching art and or a judo/jj.
I think that was very pertinent comment.

In many ways our open hand is like our weapon system.
The aikido weapon systems are not really practical.
Well for any single technique that we do in aikido-ken and there is the same technique in medieval longsword. For each aiki-jo technique there is the same technique in half-swording or spear in medieval.

The not practical does not really comes from technique not being valid it comes from aikiken and aiki-jo do not have any tactical component as to how to get in what ken call the position and what to do from there.
Basically we can deal with someone striking us but what how the hell are we going to deal with someone standing in hasso no kamae (von tag if you do medieval German, posta di falcone is you do late 15th Italian)? It is the same with our open hands.

We can broadly divide our opponents in 3 categories, people that will attack/rush, people that will rely on one time counters (be it in direct opposition, indirect opposition or with a void-strike), and people that will get into the proper distance by deception (verbal or hiding).

Rushers will engage you out of distance in order to prevent you to get organised. For example prevent to get access to a weapon, the cunning surprise attack of a drunken man or someone coming to help his mate.

People that rely on one tine counter will fight from a well organised position and with move forward, back or laterally.
The idea it to either use the attempt on the opponent to gain the “proper position “or to deploy a guard/entering attack that will prevent the opposition to gain that proper position whilst gaining it ourselves.
For example two people squaring off or a 1 v 1 match MMA. Judo, BJJ, boxing (English, French or thai) competition.

People using deception are really the self-defence, street based or not, bread and butter

For me to be called a martial art you need to be able to deal with those three situations.
So do aikido at large does it, no not really
But nor is MMA, BJJ, boxing however in all those arts you will find teachers/sensei that actually do.
In aikido though the exposure to that is much more likely in some style that other, it really depends on the individual sensei as well.

phil

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In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 03-12-2009, 09:54 AM   #90
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Min wrote:

Quote:
But, man, I know what you mean about moving your freaking feet! It's all mental... there are some people (okay, Robert) when they attack, I root and block and don't move. And that's b/c I don't *believe* I can and I tense and fight. sigh...
Yes, I have the problem with Jim Mockus. I am betting I will have the same issue with you as well based on my past experiences that I remember.

It dawned on me a few months back that my whole issue is the fact that I am convinced that I cannot move Jim.

Toby Threadgill made me feel a little better about it when i saw him working with Jim. Jim is just got a good understanding of center! So I stopped beating myself up so much and when I can train with Mockus I do! One day!

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Old 03-12-2009, 09:55 AM   #91
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Min, actually I agree with what you are saying above. your right it is walking that fine wire.

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Old 03-12-2009, 09:59 AM   #92
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Phil all very, very good points and perspective! I like the idea of looking at the hands as a weapon system. your right, it is not effective unless you can move what it is attached to in a way that is appropriate to uke.

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Old 03-12-2009, 11:24 AM   #93
observer
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Quote:
Min Kang wrote: View Post
Umm... on one level, just because I *can* do something doesn't mean I must do it.
Please do understand my good intention asking the question. The problem is, that in a real life situation, you do not have time to make any decision. You have to react, and what you do, depends on your training. The confidence and .... is not enough.
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Old 03-12-2009, 05:53 PM   #94
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Phil all very, very good points and perspective! I like the idea of looking at the hands as a weapon system. your right, it is not effective unless you can move what it is attached to in a way that is appropriate to uke.
Hello
thank kev. I would love to get the credit, but it is really a mix of aikido seinsei and medieval authors that lay it out for me….

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 03-13-2009, 02:30 AM   #95
Min Kang
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Min, actually I agree with what you are saying above. your right it is walking that fine wire.
Actually, Kevin, I realized after I posted that we *were* saying the same thing but I couldn't figure out how to edit my post

They that have power to hurt and will do none,
That do not do the thing they most do show,
Who, moving others, are themselves as stone ...
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Old 03-13-2009, 02:55 AM   #96
Min Kang
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
Please do understand my good intention asking the question. The problem is, that in a real life situation, you do not have time to make any decision. You have to react, and what you do, depends on your training. The confidence and .... is not enough.
Maciej, I don't doubt that your question was asked with good intentions. However, when you start talking about "real life" situations, and Aikido as a "martial art" ... well, we're dealing with hypotheticals.

No amount of training in any kind of martial art is enough to deal with all real life situations. And frankly, I don't think many people would be able or willing to live your regular life on perpetual edge, on alert, 24/7, as if you are in a war zone, to give yourself a chance at sudden violence. The tradeoff just doesn't make sense.

My point was that Aikido gives you the tools to effectively handle some physical conflicts. And with sufficient training, you can moderate your response in some instances. "Real life situations" can run the gamut from a drunk bum on the street who couldn't life a telephone book; to an unknown sniper picking people off at store parking lots. (Both situations happened in DC where I live).

When the ideal meets real life, real life usually wins But that doesn't discredit the ideal in any way shape or form. There are just too many variables in real life.

They that have power to hurt and will do none,
That do not do the thing they most do show,
Who, moving others, are themselves as stone ...
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Old 03-13-2009, 03:04 AM   #97
Min Kang
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Yes, I have the problem with Jim Mockus. I am betting I will have the same issue with you as well based on my past experiences that I remember.

It dawned on me a few months back that my whole issue is the fact that I am convinced that I cannot move Jim.

Toby Threadgill made me feel a little better about it when i saw him working with Jim. Jim is just got a good understanding of center! So I stopped beating myself up so much and when I can train with Mockus I do! One day!
Actually, I doubt that you'll have much problem moving me now. I give a more honest attack now than I used to. OTOH, you might get hit a bit more

Grabs from strong, set people are hard to counter if the uke sees as his "goal" simply to grab and hold you in place. It's fun to explore the connection and moving the center, etc. in that exercise but as a technique? Not so fun. And not so realistic.

OTOH, if the grab is part of an attack, like a grab and tug, or strike, well, then you have something to work with, even with the biggest, strongest guys.

BTW, I met up w/ Mark Mueller last night - he's got a bum knee so we couldn't train but it was good to catch up. I'll look forward to catching up with you soon and we can play around some on the mat, if you promise not to hurt me too badly

They that have power to hurt and will do none,
That do not do the thing they most do show,
Who, moving others, are themselves as stone ...
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Old 03-21-2009, 01:59 AM   #98
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Some very interesting comments, most went over my head but interesting non the less.
I'm not as eloquent as the rest of you so I will stick to a more simple and direct approach.

I agree with the idea that Aikido is a useful Martial Art, Not only for the skill element, but in helping you develop the "State of Mind" that is required for life and death situations. Unfortunately I neglected the spiritual element of my own development, which is why I feel that my own concept of CQFS, is incomplete.

The samurai were fealess warriors who did not fear death in battle because they already saw themselves as dead.

So what is the WORST thing that can happen to you in the Dojo with or without wooden weapons?

On a trip to london, some guy on the tourist bus put his arm around my throat, armed with a knife he said; Give me your F, money and your watch!

In another incident a buddy of mine was being threatend by two guys one had a pistol the other a shotgun

Suffice to say I am still here; "State of Mind".

Does this shed any light?
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Old 03-21-2009, 02:17 AM   #99
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Quote:
Russell Davis wrote: View Post
On a trip to london, some guy on the tourist bus put his arm around my throat, armed with a knife he said; Give me your F, money and your watch!

In another incident a buddy of mine was being threatend by two guys one had a pistol the other a shotgun

Suffice to say I am still here; "State of Mind".

Does this shed any light?
Did you give them your watch and wallet or did you disarm him?
What happened to your friend?

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 03-21-2009, 08:42 PM   #100
Churchill92
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Re: Aikido IS a practical contemporary martial art

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, newfish and all.

The reason I picked up Aikido was because it gave me Options if a situation were to arise.

Options and choices are all about what make us human and better, smarter, and more adaptable people. Because we condition our body, mind, and spirit to focus energy and move or react a certain way we can reflexively act in a myriad of ways.

I.E: If a person is charging at us with a knife we can:
*disarm them
*roll out of the way
*lock arm and pin
*throw the person
*sidestep
*Ask them to stop
etc

Learing Aikido, or any other martial arts style, gives us these type of Options which allow us chose which one is best for each situation.

It's not just about Action-> Reaction it's about Action->{List of Multiple Options}. Like a computer program with a list of parameters that are acceptable based on certain conditions (I'm a technogeek, sue me )

I'm one of those type of people that is has 3 left feet in practice, but when it comes testing time the body knows and performs like a well oiled machine I can do now wrong.

Just like any other knowledge base the more you know the better prepared you are for any situation. Because just like ole Duke said "Now you know, and knowing is half the battle!"
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