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Old 03-01-2011, 04:30 AM   #1
dps
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Uke Substitute

When practicing with a weapon do you see where the weapon is actually a substitute for an uke?. What you do with the weapon you can also do with an uke.

dps
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Old 03-01-2011, 07:22 AM   #2
mrlizard123
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Re: Uke Substitute

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
When practicing with a weapon do you see where the weapon is actually a substitute for an uke?. What you do with the weapon you can also do with an uke.

dps
I move my body; I hope to be able to do this with a stick or an uke attached to me

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:10 AM   #3
lbb
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Re: Uke Substitute

I don't see it that way, but then aikido wasn't my first exposure to weapons.
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:56 AM   #4
mrlizard123
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Re: Uke Substitute

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I don't see it that way, but then aikido wasn't my first exposure to weapons.
Hi Mary,

Thanks for the reply; how is it that you see weapons as a substitute for uke as per David's original post? Or do you not see it as such?

Cheers
Rich

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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Old 03-01-2011, 09:32 AM   #5
Ketsan
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Re: Uke Substitute

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
When practicing with a weapon do you see where the weapon is actually a substitute for an uke?. What you do with the weapon you can also do with an uke.

dps
When I started Iaido there's a kata where you make a thrust and then you turn 180 degrees to deal with another opponent. I was told to leave the sword where it is and just turn my hips and that it should be my hips and not my arms that pull the sword from the opponents body. The explanation was that I might not get it out if I just pulled with my arms and while I was doing this I would be cut down.

I find that kind of thing in Aikido: the relationship between how you use your body to manage a weapon and how you use your body to manage uke are quite close.
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Old 03-01-2011, 09:54 AM   #6
lbb
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Re: Uke Substitute

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
Hi Mary,

Thanks for the reply; how is it that you see weapons as a substitute for uke as per David's original post? Or do you not see it as such?

Cheers
Rich
As I said, I don't see it that way.
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:11 AM   #7
Janet Rosen
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Re: Uke Substitute

I think of my weapon as an extension of me.
So the question becomes, do I/should I consider uke an extension of me?
If I'm properly joining with uke, then yes.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:27 AM   #8
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Uke Substitute

My first thought was - I can swing uke up and down, bang uke against a tree, use uke against somebody else's uke...

Seriously though, lately I've been practicing a bit with a suburi jo that's almost my length and abut 1,4 kg. The only way I can swing that thing around somewhat neatly is by using my body movement and not my arms, if I try to use my arms I get very tired very quickly.

Pauliina
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:57 AM   #9
mrlizard123
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Re: Uke Substitute

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
As I said, I don't see it that way.
Ok, thanks for the reiteration, I thought one thing and wrote another, sorry about that; how do you see the use of weapons as relates to aikido?

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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Old 03-01-2011, 11:05 AM   #10
phitruong
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Re: Uke Substitute

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post
My first thought was - I can swing uke up and down, bang uke against a tree, use uke against somebody else's uke...

Pauliina
you beat me to it. i was going to say i used uke as weapons before. it feel the same, except for the screaming.
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Old 03-01-2011, 11:08 AM   #11
dps
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Re: Uke Substitute

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
you beat me to it. i was going to say i used uke as weapons before. it feel the same, except for the screaming.
That is what duct tape is for.

dps
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Old 03-01-2011, 11:14 AM   #12
lbb
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Re: Uke Substitute

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
Ok, thanks for the reiteration, I thought one thing and wrote another, sorry about that; how do you see the use of weapons as relates to aikido?
I don't. I don't think about it. To be honest, I think that aikido is plagued with too much thinking, too much meta-discussion and analysis, based on not enough experience. I have enough experience with weapons to know that my sensei knows what he's doing and isn't just waving 'em around, and that's all I care about. Trying to make some kind of connection -- trying to intellectually force some kind of connection -- between weapons and aikido is really beyond me at this point. Oh, sure, I can parrot the things that everybody says, but I'd rather find the connection (if there is one) in a more authentic way. Do a thousand cuts, then maybe you can think about it a little bit. Just a little bit. Then get back to work.
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Old 03-01-2011, 11:33 AM   #13
dps
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Re: Uke Substitute

Take for example this kata,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60ALo9nKAJY

can you image uke instead of bokken.

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
When I started Iaido there's a kata where you make a thrust and then you turn 180 degrees to deal with another opponent. I was told to leave the sword where it is and just turn my hips and that it should be my hips and not my arms that pull the sword from the opponents body. The explanation was that I might not get it out if I just pulled with my arms and while I was doing this I would be cut down.

I find that kind of thing in Aikido: the relationship between how you use your body to manage a weapon and how you use your body to manage uke are quite close.
That is along the lines of what I was thinking.

dps
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Old 03-01-2011, 11:56 AM   #14
carina reinhardt
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Re: Uke Substitute

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Take for example this kata,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60ALo9nKAJY

can you image uke instead of bokken.

That is along the lines of what I was thinking.

dps
Hi David,
I can imagine it, but I wouldn't raise uke above my head I would throw him below. Sometimes our teacher tells us to forget uke in some exercises, so that we relax our arms.
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Old 03-01-2011, 12:09 PM   #15
mrlizard123
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Re: Uke Substitute

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I don't. I don't think about it. To be honest, I think that aikido is plagued with too much thinking, too much meta-discussion and analysis, based on not enough experience. I have enough experience with weapons to know that my sensei knows what he's doing and isn't just waving 'em around, and that's all I care about. Trying to make some kind of connection -- trying to intellectually force some kind of connection -- between weapons and aikido is really beyond me at this point. Oh, sure, I can parrot the things that everybody says, but I'd rather find the connection (if there is one) in a more authentic way. Do a thousand cuts, then maybe you can think about it a little bit. Just a little bit. Then get back to work.
How can one know one is making one thousand "correct" cuts if there is no thought or consideration; surely there is some risk that the end result is an ingrained error as opposed to enlightenment. I am not suggesting this is the case in your circumstance, I am only musing the general point.

Imagine, if you will, yourself in the shoes of someone bereft of your sufficient experience; how can they know or measure that what they are doing is correct? Only through blind faith? Through explanation? Some other means? I don't think there is any problem in thinking about what we do, in fact I think that as with many things in life there should be balance.

Maybe we should only be allowed one post in this thread per thousand cuts.... Ok I'm off to get more posting credit; back tomorrow!

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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Old 03-01-2011, 01:01 PM   #16
dps
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Re: Uke Substitute

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Hi David,
I can imagine it, but I wouldn't raise uke above my head I would throw him below. Sometimes our teacher tells us to forget uke in some exercises, so that we relax our arms.
compare this video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wZj3_fXKm0

with this video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oex5jstvPLc

Can you see the thrust, turn and cut in both videos?

dps
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Old 03-01-2011, 01:20 PM   #17
grondahl
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Re: Uke Substitute

The elegant version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9PTMSwr1h0

The solid version (from 2.07)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzuH43NwIxI
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Old 03-01-2011, 02:50 PM   #18
lbb
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Re: Uke Substitute

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
How can one know one is making one thousand "correct" cuts if there is no thought or consideration
Feedback from an instructor who knows what they're talking about.

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
Imagine, if you will, yourself in the shoes of someone bereft of your sufficient experience; how can they know or measure that what they are doing is correct?
They can't. That's why they have to find a decent instructor, and practice.
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Old 03-01-2011, 03:41 PM   #19
carina reinhardt
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Re: Uke Substitute

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
compare this video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wZj3_fXKm0

with this video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oex5jstvPLc

Can you see the thrust, turn and cut in both videos?

dps
Yes, they are similar
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Old 03-01-2011, 04:41 PM   #20
mrlizard123
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Re: Uke Substitute

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Feedback from an instructor who knows what they're talking about.
Ok... basing selection of this instructor on what?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
They can't. That's why they have to find a decent instructor, and practice.
As above, how do they do this? Without discussion and thinking, what do you use to determine if a given teacher knows what they are talking about?

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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Old 03-01-2011, 06:00 PM   #21
Janet Rosen
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Re: Uke Substitute

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
Ok... basing selection of this instructor on what?

As above, how do they do this? Without discussion and thinking, what do you use to determine if a given teacher knows what they are talking about?
How is this baiting germane to the topic?

Janet Rosen
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Old 03-01-2011, 06:43 PM   #22
JO
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Re: Uke Substitute

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I don't. I don't think about it. To be honest, I think that aikido is plagued with too much thinking, too much meta-discussion and analysis, based on not enough experience. I have enough experience with weapons to know that my sensei knows what he's doing and isn't just waving 'em around, and that's all I care about. Trying to make some kind of connection -- trying to intellectually force some kind of connection -- between weapons and aikido is really beyond me at this point. Oh, sure, I can parrot the things that everybody says, but I'd rather find the connection (if there is one) in a more authentic way. Do a thousand cuts, then maybe you can think about it a little bit. Just a little bit. Then get back to work.
Strange comment for someone with over 1400 posts in 4.5 years.

To get back to the topic. I was going to say that I did'nt think of my weapons as uke because my weapons don't attack me. Then I remembered all the times I've been hit in the head by my own bokken.

There are specific techiques where you grab/control your uke much like a sword (yonkyo comes to mind). But I think the relationship between unarmed and armed techniques in aikido doesn't really have anything to do with using a weapons as some king of uke substitute. I'm not really sure how that would work.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 03-01-2011, 06:46 PM   #23
raul rodrigo
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Re: Uke Substitute

The late Seigo Yamaguchi liked to do his waza as if he was doing suburi with his uke's body.
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Old 03-01-2011, 06:48 PM   #24
dps
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Re: Uke Substitute

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post

There are specific techiques where you grab/control your uke much like a sword (yonkyo comes to mind). But I think the relationship between unarmed and armed techniques in aikido doesn't really have anything to do with using a weapons as some king of uke substitute. I'm not really sure how that would work.
Imagine uke holding on to your wrist(s) as you go through the weapons kata.

dps
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Old 03-01-2011, 06:50 PM   #25
Tenyu
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Re: Uke Substitute

I don't keep count but estimating conservatively I've done at least 200,000 staff strikes. The quality of my taijitsu has been directly informed by it and I came to the conclusion long ago I would never teach Aikido to someone who refused to learn the staff because they really are one in the same. There are only two big differences. Taijitsu is much easier and a compliant uke can hide nage's mistakes.

The staff can't hide anything.
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