Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-14-2009, 10:13 AM   #1
marlon10
 
marlon10's Avatar
Location: Odenton, MD
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 22
United_States
Offline
Steven Seagal techniques

As a new Aikido student I was just wondering if some of the techniques that I seen Seagal Sensei use on some of the you tube videos, where he is giving Aikido demonstrations, are modified by him or from traditional Aikikai Aikido?

Specifically like the footlocks I have seen him do or the kick defense.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2009, 10:59 AM   #2
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,637
United_States
Offline
Re: Steven Seagal techniques

Some people might suggest that Aikikai Aikido is a modified version of Traditional Aikido.

Aikido is so young, that it's hard to say what is "original" or not. It might be better to ask if those techniques were done by Ueshiba, or if they are part of any of the Koryu systems that inspired Aikido, or simply if they are in the Aikikai syllabus.

I know your intentions are good, but you are kind of asking a loaded question.

Take care

Last edited by ChrisHein : 02-14-2009 at 11:01 AM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2009, 01:08 PM   #3
odudog
Dojo: Dale City Aikikai
Location: VA
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 384
Offline
Re: Steven Seagal techniques

The footlocks are not part of the Aikikai syllabus. However, they could have been something that O'Sensei had studied in the past from other jujitsu arts. Seagal Sensei had learned from people that he said nobody knows or aren't famous. These people might have learned from O'Sensei though. From my small view, it seems pretty hard to find someone qualified to teach you these techniques yet still be in the Aikido world. They are out there for Seagal is an example.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2009, 02:11 PM   #4
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Steven Seagal techniques

Quote:
Marlon Hester wrote: View Post
As a new Aikido student I was just wondering if some of the techniques that I seen Seagal Sensei use on some of the you tube videos, where he is giving Aikido demonstrations, are modified by him or from traditional Aikikai Aikido?

Specifically like the foot locks I have seen him do or the kick defense.
They are of ju jutsu koryu.... These are practised and can be seen in the koryu katas of Shodokan Aikido...... There are six kata in total and 164 waza, if I remember correctly, some incorporating weapons...... tanto, jo dori, tachi waza etc....
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2009, 04:30 AM   #5
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 839
Germany
Online
Re: Steven Seagal techniques

Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote: View Post
The footlocks are not part of the Aikikai syllabus.
...
it seems pretty hard to find someone qualified to teach you these techniques yet still be in the Aikido world. They are out there for Seagal is an example.
I admit we practice footlocks very very seldom. But from time to time we do.
Also kick defense is a "normal" part of our aikido. This we do more often. Sometimes followed by a footlock.

We are aikikai - as Steven Seagal was/is - and they are part of our aikido. Without having any connection to Steven Seagal or Larry Reynosa. Our shihan are Christian Tissier from France and Endo Seishiro from Japan. So I would say footlocks are part of the aikikai syllabus.

There are some other techniques which not often taught.

Quote:
Seagal Sensei had learned from people that he said nobody knows or aren't famous.
Grin: Like Tohei and Isoyama
Watch the irimi nage.

Carsten

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 02-15-2009 at 04:36 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2009, 08:25 AM   #6
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Steven Seagal techniques

Legs are an appendage that are useful. Why would you purposefully or intentionally write them out of the syllabus? I

I think it is more along the lines of the fact that there is so much to teach, and so little time. You have to have priorities. Footlocks are not high on the list, but they can be used to demonstrate the same aiki principles, so to me, they are all apart of the system of study.

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2009, 02:33 PM   #7
odudog
Dojo: Dale City Aikikai
Location: VA
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 384
Offline
Re: Steven Seagal techniques

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
I....Also kick defense is a "normal" part of our aikido. This we do more often. Sometimes followed by a footlock.

We are aikikai - as Steven Seagal was/is - and they are part of our aikido. Without having any connection to Steven Seagal or Larry Reynosa. Our shihan are Christian Tissier from France and Endo Seishiro from Japan. So I would say footlocks are part of the aikikai syllabus.

There are some other techniques which not often taught.

Grin: Like Tohei and Isoyama
Watch the irimi nage.

Carsten
Just like I said, you need somebody to teach it to you. You are lucky in the fact that you have two very high up guys to be able to teach these footlocks. However, I still don't think these are part of the Aikikai syllabus for I don't see them on any tests requirements that I have seen or in any books, dvds, etc... that has come out from Honbu. Now each instructor can have their own special requirements. Seagal did have his students test for footlocks in his biography movie.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2009, 03:46 AM   #8
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 839
Germany
Online
Re: Steven Seagal techniques

Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote: View Post
JYou are lucky in the fact that you have two very high up guys to be able to teach these footlocks.
I have never seen Tissier or Endo doing a footlock.
I have never seen them doing kubi nage or ude gaeshi or ikkyo nage. I haven't seen these techniques in any book or on any dvd and they are not tested.
But they are alive. They are practiced.

The defense against kicks is shown on only one dvd I know and it isn't tested in any examination.
But it is practiced everywhere I know.

Isn't what is shown in books or on dvds and what is tested in examinations only the basics of the Aikikai syllabus?

Carsten
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2009, 11:52 PM   #9
Chris Farnham
Dojo: Aikido of Champlain Valley/Hamamatsu Aikidokai/Aikido Shidokai
Location: Hamamatsu, Japan
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 96
United_States
Offline
Re: Steven Seagal techniques

I think that you'll find that there are a lot of techniques that are widely performed that are not in the official Aikikai syllabus, which is pretty limited if you look here: vhttp://www.aikikai.or.jp/eng/gradingsystem.htm

What O sensei was not was a great systemetizer of techniques. I have heard that he rarely referred to technique names when he taught and he seldom showed the same techniques twice. Alot of the systemetizing was done by people like the 2nd Doshu, Saito sensei, et al. I know that this has been discussed here in the past if you care to take a look.

And, I have definitely seen footlocks performed in traditional paintings of samurai performing Jujutsu techniques.

Last edited by Chris Farnham : 02-17-2009 at 12:01 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2009, 08:54 AM   #10
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 839
Germany
Online
Re: Steven Seagal techniques

Hi
Quote:
Chris Farnham wrote: View Post
I think that you'll find that there are a lot of techniques that are widely performed that are not in the official Aikikai syllabus, which is pretty limited if you look here: vhttp://www.aikikai.or.jp/eng/gradingsystem.htm
Thank you for posting the link. I know the grading system of the hombu dojo very well.

But the Grading system of the Hombu up to the1st kyu can not be taken as "the aikikai syllabus". Actually there is no such thing.
There are a lot of different instructors at the hombu and others instructing abroad. They all teach a aikikai syllabus but everyone does it in his own way.
Everyone of them represents the aikikai emphasizing different techniques or different ways of doing them.
Take Yamaguchi, Saotome, Saito, Watanabe eg.

And there is not only one Aikikai grading system up to 1st kyu. The requirements differ from shihan to shihan.
Our Aikido Federation of Germany (AFD) has no own graduations. We get our dan directly from Tokio. But we have different requirements up to 1st kyu:
Koshi nage, Sokumen irimi nage (Naname Kokyunage), Ude kime nage, Juji garami, Hiji kime osae, Ude garami eg. are tested.
And we have more attacks tested: ushiro eri dori, kata dori men uchi, ...
The French Federation has other requirements. There is the Federation of the first Shihan in Germany, the Aikikai of Germany with again other requirements.

This becomes possible because the requirements of Shodan are the same everywhere:
Every technique from every attack. I don't think that our shihan Endo or Tissier even know our testing requirements up to 1st kyu. It isn't necessary. They test sandan and yondan and they simply ask, what they want to ask. It is that simple.
And in nearly every dan examination you are asked one or two things you never practiced before.
The testing system from 5th to 1st kyu is just a question of how and what you want to teach.

What about koshi nage? Not part of the aikikai syllabus?

Quote:
What O sensei was not was a great systemetizer of techniques. I have heard that he rarely referred to technique names
Some names he took from daito ryu like kote gaeshi or shiho nage.

Quote:
Alot of the systemetizing was done by people like the 2nd Doshu, Saito sensei, et al.
Tohei also was involved.
It is very interesting to compare the techniques presented by Saito and presented by 2nd doshu or his son.
If you let go the names you find in books of both of them, you get the names "created" at the hombu dojo.
Quote:
And, I have definitely seen footlocks performed in traditional paintings of samurai performing Jujutsu techniques.
Yes, sure. But that doesn't mean that there aren't the same footlocks in aikido?

Carsten
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2009, 03:33 PM   #11
dalen7
 
dalen7's Avatar
Dojo: Karcag Aikido Club
Location: Karcag
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 750
Hungary
Offline
Re: Steven Seagal techniques

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
What about koshi nage? Not part of the aikikai syllabus?

Carsten
You sound like your kyu system is a bit like ours.
Koshi nage, Kubi Nage, Sumi Otoshi show up at 2nd kyu, i.e.
Sotokaiten Nage, Uchikaiten Nage, and as you mentioned Udekime Nage, etc. are 3rd and below.

Quite a few techniques there for sure...that and proper form & flow that you try to achieve with each level as you go along...(as well as variations, etc.) Yeah, it can get mind boggling, but it all seems to start fitting together in an odd sort of way halfway through.

As for footwork/locks, dont know about Aikiai syllabus - as most of you have pointed out, there really isnt such a thing for kyu ranks, but it appears most places do train to some extent with footwork/pins/locks, to some degree or another.

The other day we did some kicks, and I was trying a sort of kote gashei/rokkyo type move - seemed to work ok I suppose...
Fun playing around anyway.

You know, Im reminded of a photo of O Sensei doing what looked like B.J.J. (Believe a link was posted here...) We have to remember that all these, for lack of better terms, 'grappling' arts are related to Ju jitsu at the end of the day, and there is bound to be things flowing into it - even if Aikiai has limited expectations. (i.e., no weapons...yet people still train in weapons, etc.)

At the end, each person takes away that part which they like.
I think Im starting to learn and appreciate Aikidos diversity to the extent that there is no need for a 'set' way of doing Aikido - as that really kind of goes against the very nature of Aikido itself. It seems that Aikido is more self exploratory than a set system of dos and donts...which allows the ki, if you will permit me to use that term, to flow - and that seems to be what really 'moves' your subject.

As Tohei pointed out, the attacker comes, and you kind of let them 'trip' over themselves...you step out of the way as it were.

Anyway, fascinating to dig into the various aspects and see how they work with you and what you can learn from them.

peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 02-17-2009 at 03:35 PM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
dum spiro spero - {While I have breathe - I have hope}

Art
http://www.lightofinfinity.org

Philosophical
http://dalen7.wordpress.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2009, 02:49 AM   #12
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
Re: Steven Seagal techniques

Quote:
Marlon Hester wrote:
As a new Aikido student I was just wondering if some of the techniques that I seen Seagal Sensei use on some of the you tube videos, where he is giving Aikido demonstrations, are modified by him or from traditional Aikikai Aikido?

Specifically like the footlocks I have seen him do or the kick defense.
Hi Marlon,

I am not sure if I can shed any light on your question. However, what I can add is that at Tenshin Dojo (back in the day) each technique of our testing syllabus was followed by a particular "finish." This could either have taken the form of a joint pin or a lock, and ultimately if extended was designed to be a break of some sort to disable one's attacker. The leg locks were one type of finish which followed many of the kicking attacks. Another finish was strong yonkyo to the lower leg, (tibia/fibula bones) just above the ankle using pressure applied via the middle forearm (radius bone)

My opinion of these techniques having had almost 20 years to reflect on how to train and use them in a practical scenario is that they are meant to be used to gain position on one's opponent. To be clear, I mean how to effectively get behind someone in order to apply a finishing technique to the rear of the opponent's head or neck. This could be a variation on the rear naked choke that we used to do, or a deadly strike to the brain stem.

As far as being part of the syllabus, they definitely were for us. Each of the waza on the test had a different finish and was specific to whether we were doing tachi waza, suwari waza or hanmi handachi. As far as who created them, I would have to agree with others that they are standard jujitsu style movements that were applied in an aiki manner, if you will. Again, to be specific, while these finishes could be mercilessly painful, pain was not the object in applying the finish. When properly applied they disabled the opponent by locking his body to the ground in what seemed to be a linear manner. However, in actuality they created a stationary looking object (the opponents center) which was rotating into the ground. The high point of the rotation was at ground level. The center of the rotation was buried somewhere deep within the Earth. As one became more advanced in their understanding of the application of these finishes they could be adjusted very slowly so that Uke could get a sense of where the center of the movement originated so as to try and steel the technique for themselves.

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Handmade Aikido Gifts - Handmade functional ceramic art with aikido themes



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sensei Steven Seagal's ? steeven General 142 07-26-2011 05:50 PM
Steven Seagal... solidsteven Humor 51 12-03-2008 02:50 AM
Gokyo-why? Steve Morabito Techniques 65 11-26-2006 06:18 PM
aikido and competition ewodaj General 129 08-10-2006 11:43 AM
Lightning Bolt, Steven Seagal and Aikido diesel General 75 10-10-2005 04:07 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:51 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate