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Old 03-22-2009, 05:36 PM   #76
Raptr20
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Grant Wagar i failed because it came down to using physical aikido.
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Old 03-23-2009, 12:59 AM   #77
Daniel Ranger-Holt
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Your last sentence explains much...It's impossible to know Aikido works after just a couple years of training...

Your "passion" is misplaced...and not supported by any actual facts or statistics...

William Hazen
Just want to address these two points, if after two years of training im still not going to be able to use Aikido as an effective self defence method then i happily admit it is not for me. I heard of some techniques taking 20 years to learn etc. After two years at a martial art i expect to be able to have some kindof bare bones to use in a confrontation right? two years two/three times a week is a long time. If in your words its "impossible to know [how] aikido works after just a couple of years training" Aikido heads sometimes think its a good, proud moment to say that. "aikido is so hard you will NEVER learn or understand it" lol, to me thats a negative not a plus.

My passion is not supported by any actual facts you say, i think this may have been my fault and i didnt explain myself well enough. ive done another post over a year ago titled "im leaving aikido" or something simililar i got into much more detail there about my expieriences.

After about two years Aikido, i took up a job on the doors, bouncing, thinking my self defence art would help me to some degree, of course while training more. I discovered in the speed and rush of a real confrontation (on average at the club there are 6 or 7 ejections a night - throwing people out) i worked three nights a week. I had more confrontations then i can count. I actually wrote a blog on it, but had so many i couldnt keep up writing it.

The point is, it is actual facts when i tell you that in fights, confrontations even applying locks to calm people down etc, applying, not waiting for them to stick a hand out but disabling someone from the get go to calm them. Aikido as i was trainied, the traditional style, was useless. I found it didnt work. This is what caused me to leave and seek out another art, which was very very very effective after only three months!! now a year and a half on in it, i feel very comfortable.

Raptr20 Thanks for the words. Ok i have heard of other styles of Aikido that branch away from "traditional". So more sport emphasised aikido etc, which is perhaps what i should have gone for, or hybrid aikido with other stuff. But i went to a traditional AIkido school, was expecting to learn self defence, came out two years later with a head full of unusual concepts and an art which i felt could not be used in a realistic situation outside of the flowing grace and scrpited movements of the mat.

I wish to emphasise again, this is in no way meant to offend people. My name is up here, my real name, i am simply giving my opinions of Aikido, and as to why i think its the only martial art where the question "is it actually effective" constantly asked. The thought of someone like myself going at it for so many years to find what they've learned is how to slice a wooden sword and spin in a circle well, as opposed to harsh hard impact of full on confrontation and fighting, its just not fair on people.

If someone says to me "you shouldnt have done traditional aikido you should have done this style of aikido with kicks or punches etc" then fine, i was doing the wrong type. But Aikido in general is not an effective form of self defence on its own. Just one look at you tube, and you start to see a pattern in aikido videos that leaves you feeling very uncomfortable. The pattern is "this wouldnt work in a fight" and because ive actually expierienced it, i can tell you it doesnt.

Resolving an argument if someone grabs your arm, or slowly lunges toward you who is high off drugs or drink etc. Then it becomes more possible but if someone off the street with no skills in any art but just brawler fighting comes for you, you'd stand no chance if you've just been doing traditional Aikido. You would get your teeth knocked out. No one is moving toward you as they do in any youtube video you've seen of aikido. Running in with a fist extended etc, grabbing your wrist, its almost crazy to claim its real street defence.

Aikido is something else i cant quite describe, close to a religion. But its not an effective method of defending yourself in the street. Unless you mix it up with something else. This is what i have physically expierienced, this is what i know.

Put it simple, put someone who has trained in aikido for five years, against someone who has been training in Kickboxing, MMA, Boxing, BJJ, Krav Maga, Wing Chun, Karate..etc. The outcome would be painful and embaressing. Theres only so much spinning and avoiding they would be able to do until they get smacked in the face. Stop duping yourselves with regards to aikido and self defence people, seriously. For balance etc etc how to walk away from a fight great. But be real with yourselves about it, and more importantly be real with others, new students and such.

Last edited by Daniel Ranger-Holt : 03-23-2009 at 01:13 AM.
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Old 03-23-2009, 08:06 AM   #78
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Just want to address these two points, if...... be real with others, new students and such.
Hello
Your points are all valids.
Now if you read this forum you will see that the other undying recurring thread is about atemi in aikido.
Hopefully it should shed light on what some people are trying to get at and that you are not alone in thinking that tenchin back and trying to get the wrist is not a really promising opening gambit to say the least.

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 03-23-2009, 08:36 AM   #79
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Just want to address these two points, if after two years of training im still not going to be able to use Aikido as an effective self defence method then i happily admit it is not for me.
That's fine. So, what is it exactly that you need self defense for? What are you defending against? Where, when and how are people attacking you?
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Old 03-23-2009, 08:58 AM   #80
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Quote:
Robert Brody wrote: View Post
Grant Wagar i failed because it came down to using physical aikido.
I'm still wrapping my head around this idea of using aikido = failure.

If me and my friend see you, your wife and your kid out walking through the park ad we pull a knife on you, try to rob you (or even worse) and you use aikido to defend yourself your wife and your child, you would consider it failing because you had to resort to using physical aikido?

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 03-23-2009, 11:29 AM   #81
solidsteven
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Just want to address these two points, if after two years of training im still not going to be able to use Aikido as an effective self defence method then i happily admit it is not for me.
Hi Daniel,

Im happy for you that you were able to find what you were looking for in Krav Maga which you couldnt find in Aikido.
There is no point in continuing in Aikido if you do not agree what is being taught.

Too bad though...

not sure if I am allowed to tell you this... >_> <_<
after exactly 3 years in Aikido you will be invited to the
"secret Aikido circle" which is exclusively for people that were
able to withstand the torment of 3 years of useless techniques!
all those ikkyos shihonages and kotegaeshis are just made up
to test your patience!
In the "secret Aikido circle" you are then given a blood-red hakama
and are taught all of the "real" and "deadly" waza.
I cant get into much detail here else I will have the use the
"Aiki no-touch death throw" on you!

...just letting you know what you missed

For real though

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Aikido as i was trainied, the traditional style, was useless. I found it didnt work. This is what caused me to leave and seek out another art, which was very very very effective after only three months!! now a year and a half on in it, i feel very comfortable.
Aikido has a different focus than most MAs. Most being more of a destructive art, Aikido chooses to be more of a healing art.
It takes more time to be able to heal than to destroy.
The Focus of Aikido is to blend with the attack and to be in complete control of your enemies and your own movement.
This is very difficult and takes a lot of time to learn, but it does give you the option to protect the enemy.
The idea is that you give the enemy the chance to change his mindset towards his attack, instead of cutting him down
(This might sound very religious to you!).

We put most of our mat time into learning how to connect with our opponents instead of destroying them.
This makes Aikido a very modern MA for me. The fighting days are over, its no more "eat or be eaten".
There is no need to destroy our enemies anymore these days.
I agree though that your average Aikido dojo does not effectively teach you how to fight.
If this is the path one is interested in, one can always include this knowledge in his system.
It's just that you won't learn these things in your regular Aikido mat-time. We are busy with other things…

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Put it simple, put someone who has trained in aikido for five years, against someone who has been training in Kickboxing, MMA, Boxing, BJJ, Krav Maga, Wing Chun, Karate..etc. The outcome would be painful and embaressing.
There is no point into comparing MA with eachother. What would you learn out of this? If Kickboxing guy beats Boxing guy, is Kickboxing better?
What if the boxing guy beats the kickboxing guy with a baseball bat? who is better then???
each MA has different goals and training methods.
for example:
if I were to fight Remy Bonjasky in the K1 finals i definitley would choose to have learned Kickboxing, Karate Muay Thai. Why? cause
they dont allow Throws in K1.

What if was attacked with a knife? Here i would prefer to have Aikido over boxing. Why? If I defend myself with a classic boxing defence I would get my arms cut off. In Aikido I learned how to control his knife hand. Also, I wont be able to grab his knife with my boxing gloves on

kind of pointless isnt it?
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Old 03-23-2009, 12:46 PM   #82
Michael Douglas
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

I wanna read your blog and hear about your ejections.
Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
.... I discovered in the speed and rush of a real confrontation (on average at the club there are 6 or 7 ejections a night - throwing people out) i worked three nights a week. I had more confrontations then i can count. I actually wrote a blog on it, but had so many i couldnt keep up writing it.

Put it simple, put someone who has trained in aikido for five years, against someone who has been training in Kickboxing, MMA, Boxing, BJJ, Krav Maga, Wing Chun, Karate..etc. ..
Don't mention the Ch_n, please.
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Old 03-23-2009, 02:59 PM   #83
Aikibu
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Just want to address these two points, if after two years of training im still not going to be able to use Aikido as an effective self defence method then i happily admit it is not for me. I heard of some techniques taking 20 years to learn etc. After two years at a martial art i expect to be able to have some kindof bare bones to use in a confrontation right? two years two/three times a week is a long time. If in your words its "impossible to know [how] aikido works after just a couple of years training" Aikido heads sometimes think its a good, proud moment to say that. "aikido is so hard you will NEVER learn or understand it" lol, to me thats a negative not a plus.

My passion is not supported by any actual facts you say, i think this may have been my fault and i didnt explain myself well enough. ive done another post over a year ago titled "im leaving aikido" or something simililar i got into much more detail there about my expieriences.

After about two years Aikido, i took up a job on the doors, bouncing, thinking my self defence art would help me to some degree, of course while training more. I discovered in the speed and rush of a real confrontation (on average at the club there are 6 or 7 ejections a night - throwing people out) i worked three nights a week. I had more confrontations then i can count. I actually wrote a blog on it, but had so many i couldnt keep up writing it.
Poor Dear and I do mean that sincerely. I worked as a bouncer and had the exact opposite esperiance with my Aikido Practice and It never ever failed me. Not once...Still my experiance is still only "anecdotal fact" and thats my point... There are a ton of folks who are in the "conflict resolution" profession and they seem to find Aikido effective...All you telling me with your broad and sweeping generalizations is that YOUR AIKIDO failed you...So to take your (or my experiance) as a general "fact" is a bit of a stretch....

Quote:
The point is, it is actual facts when i tell you that in fights, confrontations even applying locks to calm people down etc, applying, not waiting for them to stick a hand out but disabling someone from the get go to calm them. Aikido as i was trainied, the traditional style, was useless. I found it didnt work. This is what caused me to leave and seek out another art, which was very very very effective after only three months!! now a year and a half on in it, i feel very comfortable.
Like I said before...I have no problem finding something that works...As we discussed in your prior thread I totally understand that Your Aikido Sensei failed. I really do understand your complaints... There are allot of very weak Aikido Instructors who could not fight thier way out of a wet paper bag and have no Martail Awareness and that I can't deny...

Quote:
Put it simple, put someone who has trained in aikido for five years, against someone who has been training in Kickboxing, MMA, Boxing, BJJ, Krav Maga, Wing Chun, Karate..etc. The outcome would be painful and embaressing. Theres only so much spinning and avoiding they would be able to do until they get smacked in the face. Stop duping yourselves with regards to aikido and self defence people, seriously. For balance etc etc how to walk away from a fight great. But be real with yourselves about it, and more importantly be real with others, new students and such.
Most of this (again for me personally) is not my experiance at all with Aikido...However...I could not agree with you more on the last point and that goes for any Martial Art...The sad fact of the matter is all the Gendai Arts have been diluted over the years. There is just no knowing when you're a rookie what you're getting yourself into is the real deal or not. Sadly with Aikido this is even more evident. I have been in Ventura California now for a month and have visited a few Dojos...
Though they all have thier good points...I have too look hard for the kind of Martial Awareness that Aikido needs... To live up to it's promise as something different and special.... and not just a bunch of folks going less than a quarter speed grabbing wrists with no Martial Intent...

As Shoji Nishio Shihan put it "Sincere Heart though Austure Practice."

That kind of spirit is getting harder and harder to find in the Aikido World I see.

William Hazen
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Old 03-24-2009, 09:02 AM   #84
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

People are effective not styles. If a Brazilian Jiujitsu stylist gets into a fight with a an untrained fighter using his person style of "no style" and knocks the BJ guy out does that mean his no style is better? No it just means he was better on that day.

Boxing is not neccessarily a better style then any other Martial Art but there aren't many of you guys in Aikido, BJJ, MMA or any other style that I would give a chance to against Mike Tyson in his prime on the street.

Lets put the Aikido effectiveness to rest and agree it's more about the person and not the style. Remember guns and retaliation are factors that not style can guarantee your success against.
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Old 03-24-2009, 09:08 AM   #85
dps
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Aikido always helps me in the fake fights.

David
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Old 03-25-2009, 03:25 PM   #86
cp.medic
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Yeah against my Wife once...LOL..... I was supposed to babysit but got offered a night dive (Scuba) and chose the latter... Oppps.... She was rather offended... (Read Pee'd Off) and attacked me, not wanting to hurt her I moved out of the way, grabbed her wrist into a protected lock, pulled her gently down to the bed (All the while she is screaming about various injuries she was going to perform upon my person) wrapped her in the quilt and ran like hell out of the house, spent the night on my buddies couch... Had to call next morning and ask permission to come home.....
We've been married 22 years so obviously she said yes, but I did pay for my very smooth move... LOL
Cheers.
Doc
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Old 03-29-2009, 05:09 AM   #87
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Thumbs up Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Just want to address these two points, if after two years of training im still not going to be able to use Aikido as an effective self defence method then i happily admit it is not for me...
Right on the button Daniel. Props to you...

One-Aiki,

Iking
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Old 04-04-2009, 05:11 PM   #88
Phil Van Treese
Dojo: Tampa Judo and Aikido Dojo, Tampa, Fl
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Aikido has saved my life, literally. In Viet Nam, It was invaluable in many situations. I did extractions into North Viet Nam and came back alive thru some hairy situations.
In Desert Storm, I taisabakied perfectly once and not a minute to late as I was almost bayonetted.
In Mogadishu, Somalia (Blackhawk Down), I was on a rescue mission when I was attacked by no less than 6 extremists at once. I survived---they didn't. Yes, Aikido will help you but you have to train as though your life depends on it because someday (hopefully not) it just might have to and you will react the way you have been trained.
I hope this answers your question.
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Old 04-04-2009, 09:10 PM   #89
Aiki Teacher
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Quote:
Alex Mitchell-Schwartz wrote: View Post
I am considering taking Aikido, but I am unsure as to whether it would actually help me if someone where to attack me. Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?
Used it to break up a fight between two Jr. High students. One student in an arm lock the other in yonkyo. No other teachers around to help. Neither student landed a punch against me or each other. The yonkyo student was cursing a lot!
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Old 04-05-2009, 01:38 AM   #90
aikilouis
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Quote:
Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
Yes, Aikido will help you but you have to train as though your life depends on it .
Shinken shobu !

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Old 04-05-2009, 07:01 PM   #91
Ketsan
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Theres only so much spinning and avoiding they would be able to do until they get smacked in the face. Stop duping yourselves with regards to aikido and self defence people, seriously. For balance etc etc how to walk away from a fight great. But be real with yourselves about it, and more importantly be real with others, new students and such.
That tells me you're making the classic Aikido mistake of sticking to form rather than principle.
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Old 04-05-2009, 07:22 PM   #92
Guilty Spark
 
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Quote:
Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
Aikido has saved my life, literally. In Viet Nam, It was invaluable in many situations. I did extractions into North Viet Nam and came back alive thru some hairy situations.
In Desert Storm, I taisabakied perfectly once and not a minute to late as I was almost bayonetted.
In Mogadishu, Somalia (Blackhawk Down), I was on a rescue mission when I was attacked by no less than 6 extremists at once. I survived---they didn't. Yes, Aikido will help you but you have to train as though your life depends on it because someday (hopefully not) it just might have to and you will react the way you have been trained.
I hope this answers your question.
Was your Aikido taught through the military at all or was it civi side?

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:19 PM   #93
Aikibu
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote: View Post
Was your Aikido taught through the military at all or was it civi side?
According to his Bio...His Sifu was Pai Mei...The same dude who taught Bill and the Fox Force Five Deadly Female Assasains...

While it is true that Pang Mai thought that all Japanese Teachers were fatheads he tested his opinion severely when fought O.Sensei in a legendary contest at Bulshi Mountain... After five days and nights of furious verbal combat using the deadliest of insults hurled with abandon Pai Mei executed the deadly five step expoding heart technique and O'Sensei countered with the equally deadly electric wrist grab of heavenly destiny...

Both survived and decided to open a Dojo in Iowa in partnership with a another famous cage fighter...A dude named Russ...Easily recognized by his American Flag Parachute Pants...

This explains everything about our new Pals use of Aikido in three wars...

William Hazen
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:32 PM   #94
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

My aikido in the beginning was from Kenji Tomiki Shihan in Japan. I then was in the military, depending where I was stationed, I would go off base and study. I also studied under Hideo Ohba Shihan and Gozo Shioda Shihan. I had a mixture of in and out of the military for my training but I was fortunate to have gone all over the world and had a chance to work with nothing but the best. Hope this answers your question.
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:40 PM   #95
Aikibu
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Quote:
Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
My aikido in the beginning was from Kenji Tomiki Shihan in Japan. I then was in the military, depending where I was stationed, I would go off base and study. I also studied under Hideo Ohba Shihan and Gozo Shioda Shihan. I had a mixture of in and out of the military for my training but I was fortunate to have gone all over the world and had a chance to work with nothing but the best. Hope this answers your question.
Very Interesting...Welcome to Aik-Web Perhaps you'll share your experiance in greater detail. I spent some time in the service myself and I served with some folks who may have known you.

WIlliam Hazen
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Old 04-20-2009, 02:31 PM   #96
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Sure, I'd be happy to help you out on all types of experiences. Just ask and if I can answer your question(s), I will do the best I can. Take care and talk to you later.
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Old 04-20-2009, 03:00 PM   #97
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Hi Phil,

If you don't mind;

Quote:
Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
...Gozo Shioda Shihan..
What was Gozo Shioda like to train with?
What did you like most about his style of instruction?
What were his pet peevs?

You've used Aikido while conducting military operations I think you've said?
Do you feel Aikido gave you an advantage during those situations where as another martial arts may not have? Or do you think martial arts training is martial arts training.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 04-24-2009, 02:59 PM   #98
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Gozo Shioda Shihan was only about 5'1"--not very tall. His instruction was always centered around taking balance. NOT just physical balance but also psychological and mental balance. If you keep your opponent guessing, the confusion will be his downfall. His Ki was the best ever. Tomiki Shihan's Ki was outstanding but not close to Gozo Shioda's. Being that Gozo Sensei was so small, he made up for it in Ki. I liked that Gozo Sensei was not big on big movements. He viewed all waza as an eye of a hurricane. Smaller the eye, the more powerful the storm and the bigger the eye, the less powerful.
The 2 biggest pet peeves were being late for class and not giving 125% in every class.
I used aikido (and judo) in Viet Nam, Desert Storm and Somalia. Actually did save my life more than once. Fighting with rules is good but fighting without rules and getting 2nd place isn't so good. 1st place or nothing (life or death--1st pl. or nothing). Both shihans have always said---train as if your life depended on it. Thank God I did because that statement came true for me more than once.
I think the aikido gave me an advantage as far as using the opponents attack(s) against himself. Judo gave me the wonderful shime waza (choking techniques) that were useful. Tai sabaki was definitely an advantage---straight line attack and circular defense is soooooooooo true. Training is getting out of it what you put into it. Train, train, train like your life depends on it. You just might save your life or that of another.
I hope this answers your question.
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:56 AM   #99
Josh Astridge
Dojo: Aikido Hawkes Bay, Tamatea
Location: Hastings
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 11
New Caledonia
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Hi guys, new member from NZ here.

Been an Aikidoka for about 1 month.

There was once instance where a person who had a problem with me (for sticking up to him for my girlfriend, typical teenage shit).

He ran up to me and barged me so that I'd fall on the concrete and hurt myself badly, luckily i was learning how to properly Ukemi/backward ukemi at the time and managed to pull off a proper breakfall/roll.

I got up and he came at me in a typical boxer stance, one arm extended out slightly further and went to throw a punch.

I entered to him, pushing the punch down (earth) an pushed the extended arm up (heaven) and proceeded to direct my weight foward.

This actually caused him to fall to the ground (I never used to think Aikido would work until I was more skilled) and his right arm was left up. I walked it, grabbed it and guided him onto his belly, and just held him in a pin until he calmed down (i was twisting his arm to the point of pain, but not major pain).

The situation stopped the confrontation and now he doesn't try to mess with me.

I guess we put the 'harm' in harmony right?

I'm just glad I was able to stop this without relying on my knowledge of Tae Kwon Do or Kyokushin-Karate (which i try not to use).

So i don't know if this counts.

Josh
-Aikido Hawke's Bay, New Zealand.
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Old 04-26-2009, 06:39 AM   #100
majin29
Location: Milton, ON
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 17
Canada
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Re: Has Aikido ever helped you in a real fight?

Great post Josh. I am looking to being my Aikido training and it's always good to hear about cases where this art can be applied but not to such a detrimental end as a resolution to a conflict.

I am 40 and the likely hood of actual physical confrontations are low given the area I live in. But it is good to see that Aikido can develop self defense skills even ones where you learn to roll with a push or someone being the aggressor against you.

I seek not to know all the answers but to understand the questions
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