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Old 02-15-2009, 10:12 PM   #51
Buck
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Ya know I am reading allot about how men are stronger, women are weaker. You can't attack a women like a man etc.

I hate ta tell ya, stereotyping and sexism is at its best here. Fact, there are women who can beat me down as good as a man. There are women who can give men a fight as good as as another man.

Why women any differently than men on the mat? The best thing you can do if your concern about women, is to treat them no differently then men. Now, if they want to be treated differently with kid gloves and the men are treated without kid gloves you are doing a disservice to everyone. Or if you can't control those goosebumps when you work out with a pretty women and it isn't a mutual thing, and she isn't flirting, you should be respectful to everyone and leave. Then don't come back until you have control and discipline. I am not including just straight people.

When you start training in a good dojo you should have your head straight. If you training in a bad dojo and you head isn't straight then you fit right in. That is what a bad dojo is about, people not with their heads on straight.

To have an effective work out in the dojo no one should be treated any differently for any reason. Drop all the sexism etc., and junk. That way everyone gets the most out of training. Those who feel they should be treated different shouldn't train.
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Old 02-15-2009, 10:36 PM   #52
wideawakedreamer
 
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Body mass is also a factor here. That's why weight divisions exist in just about every combat sport you can think of, from boxing to MMA. That being said, a 98 pound woman is not likely to be attacked by another 98 pound woman outside the dojo. So it does make sense for her to learn to defend against a 250 pound attacker. Which is why in aikido we mix it up with people bigger than us and with people smaller than us.
Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote: View Post

I don't know much about Aikido. I do know strength is a MAJOR factor when dealing with any and all physical altercations. In a perfect Aikido (IMO) theory class someone wouldn't need strength and a 98 pound woman could effortlessly control a 250 pound male linebacker.
In reality?
I think you need a blend.

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Old 02-16-2009, 01:46 AM   #53
Eva Antonia
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Dear all,

wouldn't it depend much on the skills of your adversary if you treat them under consideration of their sex or not?

In our dojo we have several 6th kyu grown ups; two of them are young men with a constitution like bears, and one is a woman in her mid thirties, slender and small. None of them knows how to fall, but everyone takes much more care not to mishandle the woman, just because she is such a featherweight that she is much easier to throw (this might again be different for really advanced aikidoka, but for middling kyus like myself that's it). If you perform nikkyo on the guys' wrists, they are so thick and stiff that it is really difficult to put your hand appropriately; if you take the woman you have to take care not to break them.

Something else: If the guys are tori, they use all their strength and behave as dynamically as they can; they try to smash uke on the floor when doing tenshi nage or direct irimi, and the woman attacks and defends herself quite in a fragile way...as Sczepan wrote. So it's also a question of their behaviour - they are treated as they treat others, and if there are lots of women attacking gently, never grabbing aggressively and holding a wrist like they would hold an embroidering needle, then it's normal that men tend to generalise and treat them softly.

But I also observed that this changes with rank. The soft, reluctant and a bit fearful people also learn to attack frankly, grab firmly and defend themselves vigorously, so I think that the difference of perception towards woman and men is mostly an issue for beginners. I suppose it would be a great insult for a highly ranked women to be treated gingerly because the adversary thinks she might break...it would mean the guy thinks inwardly she had not merited the belt she has.

Best regards,

Eva
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Old 02-16-2009, 02:25 AM   #54
raul rodrigo
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Rafael, I think we have the same teacher, so I know what you mean about fearing for my own safety.
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Old 02-16-2009, 12:27 PM   #55
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Stereotyping and sexism?
No, simply a careful observation what’s happening on the tatami. Let’s take two fresh beginners approximate the same weight, female and male.
I’d say in 99% male student will be much stronger than female student. Only because of that factor, nage will have to apply a technique more powerfully on male student. It is required by construction of his body, nothing to do with stereotyping and sexism LOL
As other students will not want to hurt beginners, they will apply automatically less power against female beginner taking in consideration the strength of her body. Again – this adjustment has nothing to do with training level – don’t forget, both are fresh beginners.
Another important factor are hormones: i.e. male student will have naturally more testosterone. Its level will determine how much ‘violence’ on his body a student will accept as ‘normal’. And again, because of biology of their body, we can apply a technique much more vigorously on male student.
Female students that come to aikido have no ‘fighting’ spirit. Those who have it go righ from the beginning to fighting sport, like judo, kyokushin, kendo, boxing….
Every beginner male student has such spirit – again because of biology. Usually he starts aikido by choice not to use this spirit.

So when you apply a vigorous technique (that produce small amount of pain, but not injury) on male student, his spirit will wake up, and he will respond with all his ‘male’ capacities – even if it is his first class. Female student will go to changing room and start to cry. Some will start to cry immediately on the tatami.

I can continue with much more examples, but I think now everybody understand my point of view. Starting learning point male and female students is not the same, by Nature, and as in aikido we follow laws of Nature, we can’t practice the same way with male and female students.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 02-16-2009, 02:23 PM   #56
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

I love it when people make statements that are eyeball-deep in subjectivity (not to mention bias) and label them as objective fact. I also really love it when people make deterministic pronouncements about what I want, need and am capable of by virtue of my gender.

I understand your point of view, Szczepan. I don't respect it, I don't agree with it, I don't accept your contention that it is objective and truthful, and I contend that it is both the product and the expression of derogatory, harmful bias. But understand it? You better believe I do. I could only wish that you got to spend a few decades having your nose rubbed into biases about you the way you're doing here. It might teach you a thing or two.
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Old 02-16-2009, 06:12 PM   #57
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

I've been reading this thread and I guess my question is what does this matter? My job when I attack in training is to give the best attack I can within the a range that my partner can learn and improve his or her aikido. I'm a 245lb former power lifter with 16 years of aikido and about 4 of XingYi Quan. If I put all of my center, power, body weight, etc into an attack I am fairly hard to deal with. If my partner is a smaller man or women or a older student they have a hard time working that that attack, but I'm cheating them if I do this and I'm not really learning anything either. If you think a women can't handel your attack then why don't you help them learn how to handel it. That seem to me to be a more productive use of training time.?
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Old 02-16-2009, 07:41 PM   #58
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Hi Mary,
My statements come from experience. And you didn't provide ANY valid argument in this discussion.

Also, my wife is 4th dan aikido, 1st dan MSR iaido and 1st dan in judo. You may say I'm biased, but I learned painfully how to protect myself

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 02-16-2009, 07:52 PM   #59
Buck
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Stereotyping and sexism?
No, simply a careful observation what's happening on the tatami. Let's take two fresh beginners approximate the same weight, female and male.
I'd say in 99% male student will be much stronger than female student. Only because of that factor, nage will have to apply a technique more powerfully on male student. It is required by construction of his body, nothing to do with stereotyping and sexism LOL

I can continue with much more examples, but I think now everybody understand my point of view. Starting learning point male and female students is not the same, by Nature, and as in aikido we follow laws of Nature, we can't practice the same way with male and female students.
That is all I read. Ok, I don't know where your live, but are all the woman 95 lbs soaking wet faire maidens and the men are 260 muscle heads? LOL. Isn't Aikido about having something over the stronger opponent in self-defense. I have notice muscle bound hulky people have a tough time doing Aikido in comparing to those of slimmer builds. I think of Shioda as an example of a small frame and stature about the size and strength of many women in that range. I wonder how much Shioda weighed?

Sure you can practice the same, wear blind folds, and don't say a word.
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Old 02-16-2009, 10:03 PM   #60
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

I don't know if it is because Szczepan's first language may not english but his posts to me seem pretty crude.

Be that as it may I think some of his points are quite valid.
I don't agree with the no fighting spirit but I do agree with the opinion on different hormones and males being more used to violence and perhaps better suited to dealing with it, if at least for the beginning of someones MA training.

I wouldn't say women go off and hide and cry. It does happen I'm sure, but I've seen men being brought to tears in front of other men from someone yelling at them. I think it might be true to say that women require more inoculation against physical and mental violence (on average) to bring them to the same level as men?

I won't say one is better than the other because I don't believe it's a matter of better/worse BUT for those of you teacher types do you believe men and women are equal on the mat? Can you use the exact same training methods on both?

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Old 02-16-2009, 11:27 PM   #61
Buck
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote: View Post
for those of you teacher types do you believe men and women are equal on the mat? Can you use the exact same training methods on both?
Am not a teacher, but I guess I will say am a teacher type. Here is my formula for the exact training methods.

1. Blind folds on both.

2. No verbal communication between the two.

3. No verbal instruction, instead physical instruction, like Anne Sullivan did with Helen Keller. Physically moving body parts around like in the movie.

You do that and you got men and woman learning both the same way, and you won't have this thread's original issues. Sex would not play a role. The way we approach each other- in the way it is being discussed here- has to do allot with how we are trained to perceive the opposite and our own sex, its all in our heads.
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Old 02-17-2009, 06:26 AM   #62
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Am not a teacher, but I guess I will say am a teacher type. Here is my formula for the exact training methods.

1. Blind folds on both.

2. No verbal communication between the two.

3. No verbal instruction, instead physical instruction, like Anne Sullivan did with Helen Keller. Physically moving body parts around like in the movie.

You do that and you got men and woman learning both the same way, and you won't have this thread's original issues. Sex would not play a role. The way we approach each other- in the way it is being discussed here- has to do allot with how we are trained to perceive the opposite and our own sex, its all in our heads.
Indeed so. How ironic that so many people would need to be blindfolded in order to see that.

God, I am tired of this. Absolutely sick to death of it. It just. Never. Ends.
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Old 02-17-2009, 09:34 PM   #63
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
Rafael, I think we have the same teacher, so I know what you mean about fearing for my own safety.
Macapawa sensei?

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Old 02-18-2009, 02:35 AM   #64
raul rodrigo
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Rafael Ayala wrote: View Post
Macapawa sensei?
Of course. I've even trained with her in Davao a few times, so we may have run into each other there. She's been my teacher for years, so I've never had the preconception that female aikidoka are fragile and our attacks on them must be diluted as a result.
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Old 02-18-2009, 01:57 PM   #65
Justin Azevedo
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Well, you could always say that because of the constant snuggling and armpit-sniffing we all do when practicing iriminage, the rare accidental boob-grab isn't really going to freak you out.
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Old 02-18-2009, 07:59 PM   #66
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Raul: I only trained with her for a few months back in 2003. I got busy after that, and then our little group in Matina Town Square just stopped training. When I decided to return to aikido, the closest dojo was Bu Yuu Kan, which practices Seiwakai aikido. I still occasionally see her in Davao during aikido seminars.

Justin: Good point

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Old 02-18-2009, 08:23 PM   #67
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

I'd be more worried about applying nikkyo on the guys than for the woman. At least with wrists and arms like hers, I feel like I have better control. With thick and stiff limbs, I'm always afraid I'll go overboard and then *SNAP!*

Anyway, I've had the same experiences in my dojo. I'd just like to add that I've also trained with men who are bigger and muscular than I am, and yet are so afraid of ukemi that I had to be really gentle with them. So much for appearances.
Quote:
Eva Röben wrote: View Post
Dear all,

wouldn't it depend much on the skills of your adversary if you treat them under consideration of their sex or not?

In our dojo we have several 6th kyu grown ups; two of them are young men with a constitution like bears, and one is a woman in her mid thirties, slender and small. None of them knows how to fall, but everyone takes much more care not to mishandle the woman, just because she is such a featherweight that she is much easier to throw (this might again be different for really advanced aikidoka, but for middling kyus like myself that's it). If you perform nikkyo on the guys' wrists, they are so thick and stiff that it is really difficult to put your hand appropriately; if you take the woman you have to take care not to break them.

Something else: If the guys are tori, they use all their strength and behave as dynamically as they can; they try to smash uke on the floor when doing tenshi nage or direct irimi, and the woman attacks and defends herself quite in a fragile way...as Sczepan wrote. So it's also a question of their behaviour - they are treated as they treat others, and if there are lots of women attacking gently, never grabbing aggressively and holding a wrist like they would hold an embroidering needle, then it's normal that men tend to generalise and treat them softly.

But I also observed that this changes with rank. The soft, reluctant and a bit fearful people also learn to attack frankly, grab firmly and defend themselves vigorously, so I think that the difference of perception towards woman and men is mostly an issue for beginners. I suppose it would be a great insult for a highly ranked women to be treated gingerly because the adversary thinks she might break...it would mean the guy thinks inwardly she had not merited the belt she has.

Best regards,

Eva

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Old 04-02-2009, 04:59 PM   #68
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

thanks to everyone!!!

Chantal

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Old 04-04-2009, 09:02 AM   #69
Keith Larman
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Um, carefully letting much of the ensuing discussion float on past...

Back to the original point.

When I was first assigning teaching duties it was simple -- I had only adults. And for me the issues isn't male vs. female as much as it is simply being a grown up and being cognizant of proper practice. A push to the chest isn't going to involve full blown breast grabbing -- that's just silly. A push to the chest is to push higher up. A grab from behind isn't a breast cupping but is a bear hug. And like all techniques if someone wants to sit out, fine.

Later I started into our children's program. Again, no issues as the kids were all pre-teens.

Eventually I started teaching an advanced kids/teenagers program. Then it became a bit of an issue, but more for how I was going to teach. I realized that while these kids were maturing, they really needed the same training and the same focus. I just needed to be more aware of the more fragile developing self-image of the kids (both male and female) and to make sure their training maintained a "professional" approach. To me good training is like being a "professional". You have a job to do. You do it. So the focus for me became on my role as an instructor -- we're here to train and I, as instructor, will not accept *any improper* behavior, touching, comments, etc. Period. I will explicitly say that a push to chest is a push high on the chest and I'll remind the students that they know exactly why that is. First of all it is a better attack *and* it is simply more appropriate for training. And they know full well that I won't accept *anything* inappropriate regardless of gender. Zero tolerance.

And fwiw, I have a couple 14-year-old girls who can thump some of the 16-year-old males quite well, thank you. One is more "delicate" in personality, but she can deliver a can of whoop when she decides to. I'm working hard trying to get her to understand that the can of "whoop butt" is okay to practice when appropriate because she's often hesitant to bring it on. And she tends to go defensive quickly when others try to train with the same intensity. So she is figuring it out. She can sometimes dish it out but she can't always take it. And to progress she's going to need to deal with both with confidence. The other delivers power quite regularly, takes good ukemi and I'm not worried about her at all.

The boys used to be hesitant around the girls, but after enough times finding themselves hitting the mat with, um, lots of feeling, they've learned that the young ladies aren't exactly delicate flowers... They still face the "don't hit girls" problem mentally sometimes, but they're getting over it. Which is exactly what I expect of them. All.

I have trained with very small women. And being a big, strong guy pushing 240 who works long hours metalworking and periodic weight training I do sometimes have to be a little more careful. But that's not due to them being a female per se, but them simply being 100 pounds soaking wet with very tiny bone structures. I'm a big barrel chested Norwegian with a low center of gravity. Mongo crush small people. So it isn't about them being women for me -- it is simply being cognizant of where they are in their training and what they can physically handle. We've got a couple smaller less experienced males as well -- the same holds for them. I try not to dish out more than they can handle. The idea is that they do ultimately (hopefully) want to learn to deal with an attacking big guy.

And fwiw one of my female 14-year-old students has laid me out a number of a times with me giving a strong, focused attack. And it is simply because she's good and I and other instructors have spent years getting her to that point by pushing her to get better. Which means she's had years of strong but appropriate attacks. Which is the point, neh?

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Old 04-06-2009, 08:02 AM   #70
Anjisan
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Talking Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Hello all,

In my training with women I have encountered very few who ask me to slow my attack or hold back-equality. However, that number goes up significantly when the female is a uke attacking me. In know the kneejerk thought is to believe that I am training too rough, but I have checked this out with others both at my school (wboth with my sensei's and peers) and at seminars and they have collectively said no, In fact, many have said that they have had a similar experiences.

I have alwasys taken the position that an Aikidoka is an Aikidoka regardless of gender, but perhaps a double standard can creep in when it comes to being on the receiving end as Uke. Having one's cake and eating it too so to speak--all to willing to throw hard, but raising concerns when the shoe is on the other foot. I can honestly say that to the best of my knowledge, no one has ever missed a single day of training due to haveing trained with me in 15 years so that does add credability to my point of a double standard. I believe that In Aikido, maybe it is indeed better to give than to receive.
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Old 04-06-2009, 10:35 AM   #71
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

I'm such a jerk.
When my partner was testing I brought her out to the gym the night before her test and ran her through the hardest workout I had.

I think next time I should do it day of the test. <Menacing Laugh>

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If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 04-06-2009, 05:56 PM   #72
Cordula Meyer
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
In my training with women I have encountered very few who ask me to slow my attack or hold back-equality.
However, that number goes up significantly when the female is a uke attacking me.
Yes, of course, taking ukemi is dangerous, being nage is not dangerous. So if someone asks to slow down, of course it is uke (regardless of gender).
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Old 04-07-2009, 10:57 AM   #73
Anjisan
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Tongue Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

As far as the Nage role being less dangerous, I suspect that it depends on who is attacking or the context ie randori. Overall, I would agree that the Uke is more likely to ask to go easy than the Nage. However, my point is that is has been my experience that females above and beyond ask more often. This strikes me as contrary to the gender-neutral approach to training that is advocated by many, if not most dojos.

Moreover, often these are females who have significant experience and/or rank who, one would believe, would be comfortable with their ukemi abilities. I have long held the position that, particularily in Aikido, one's training can only progress as far as the ukes one has the opportuity to train with. Perhaps, overall, ukemi needs to be stressed more through the ranks as much as the waza so their is more confidence as one progresses. If one is for example, a shodan, but hesitant in one's ukemi abilities, there is a problem in my humble opinion.
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Old 04-07-2009, 03:13 PM   #74
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote: View Post
I'm such a jerk.
When my partner was testing I brought her out to the gym the night before her test and ran her through the hardest workout I had.

I think next time I should do it day of the test. <Menacing Laugh>
lol ... you are not a jerk!! Remember, I am the one who agreed to workout with you that day ...

Chantal

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Old 04-07-2009, 03:24 PM   #75
Chantal
 
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

I have no doubt that you already have plans of how to cause me pain before my next test. Then again, I have a few ideas of my own as well ... look out dear friend, cause this will all come back to you ... on the mat!!! hehe

Chantal

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