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Old 02-10-2009, 05:05 PM   #26
Chantal
 
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

yes I agree I should have been able to stop laughing!! It doesn't happen often that I lose control ...

Yesterday was a loooong day. Have you ever been so tired that it wouldn't matter what happened, you would laugh?? Well, I had one of those days. My students (I teach grades 5 to 8) had me totally exhausted (it was a snow day today) so I had more than my regular students to teach that day ... soooo, after a long ass day (and no time for a nap before class), something funny happened and I lost control. I am indeed working on "remainig focused" during class though.

Thanks for your advice and POV Chris

Chantal
p.s. I got lots of sleep last night so tonight's class should be without giggles.
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Old 02-10-2009, 10:11 PM   #27
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
1st of all, Yoshinkan Aikido is by far not the "toughest" style of Aikido. Have you tried Tomiki Aikido---AKA Shodokan Aikido??? I don't think so.
My style is tougher
No mine is tougher
NO mine is
NO, mine is!

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 02-11-2009, 01:53 PM   #28
NagaBaba
 
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Ah, Mr. S was making a ***joke***...he trains in the Aikikai as it happens. And from what I hear, he is the ORIGINAL Hard Bastard(TM).


Best,
Ron
well...well!!! Now I'm starting to wonder, how come you can have such very private info about me?

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 02-11-2009, 02:10 PM   #29
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
1st of all, Yoshinkan Aikido is by far not the "toughest" style of Aikido. Have you tried Tomiki Aikido---AKA Shodokan Aikido??? I don't think so. Since we do the tachi waza like you all, we also do Newaza, Kansetsu waza and Shime waza. .
Look Phil, you have only 2 posts on the forum, and I have more then 600!! As a very fresh newbie you should think twice before posting such horrible statement - only from comparing our aikido experience it is very clear that I'm right and you are very wrong.

Quote:
Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
1st
As for training with female students, they are treated the same as the men. .
And here you are wrong again. Female students are very different then male students and can't be treated equally. It is true from biological point of view as well as from psychological point of view. All over the world and in any aikido style male students do many adjustments when they practice with female students. Even if external form of technique may looks very similar, internal side is different. I'll give you few examples:
1. they reduce a power
2. they are trying to appear as the gentlemen
3. they avoid violence to preserve fragile female spirit
4. they will rather fail a technique then break female student
5. they avoid head buts and biting to protect female beauty
6. nobody likes to kill the ladies
Etc…

So before further posting, please do some more reading on this forum, to avoid basic mistakes.

hope it helps

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 02-11-2009, 02:16 PM   #30
ChrisMoses
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
3. they avoid violence to preserve fragile female spirit
Don't they have women up there in the great white north? You're funny.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
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Old 02-11-2009, 08:54 PM   #31
Garth Jones
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

"Fragile female spirit" ??? I have never, in 20 years of training, met a serious female aikido student who I would describe as having a 'fragile' spirit on the mat. And I know several who would drill me into the mat for suggesting such a thing.

Here's a story as told to me recently by the woman involved: Way back when Terry Dobson Sensei was the head instructor of Bond Street Dojo (New York) a low ranked women was training with a guy who refused to punch her because of her gender. Upon hearing this, Dobson Sensei said, "Heck, I don't have a problem hitting her." With that, he hauled off and came blasting in at her head. Dobson Sensei was a huge guy and, from what I've heard, didn't hold back on much of anything.

I asked her what she did, and she said, "the best tenkan of my life!"

She's still training today, the guy isn't. Fragile spirit.....

Garth
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Old 02-11-2009, 11:16 PM   #32
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Garth Jones wrote: View Post
"Fragile female spirit" ??? I have never, in 20 years of training, met a serious female aikido student who I would describe as having a 'fragile' spirit on the mat.
No but how many men have you met that wrongly assumed as much?

Quote:
1. they reduce a power
2. they are trying to appear as the gentlemen
3. they avoid violence to preserve fragile female spirit
4. they will rather fail a technique then break female student
5. they avoid head buts and biting to protect female beauty
6. nobody likes to kill the ladies
These all are things guys are guilty of whether they realize it or not and regardless the actual fact of the matter.

I realise the concept of everyone being equal and everyone being the same on the mat but at the same time I believe different types of people (introvert/extrovert?), male female agressive passive need (at least at times) different methods of teaching and instruction.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 02-12-2009, 05:42 AM   #33
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Each person is an individual regardless of sex....each uke deserves complete attention.
Mary
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Old 02-12-2009, 06:40 AM   #34
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Look Phil, you have only 2 posts on the forum, and I have more then 600!! As a very fresh newbie you should think twice before posting such horrible statement - only from comparing our aikido experience it is very clear that I'm right and you are very wrong.

And here you are wrong again. ...

So before further posting, please do some more reading on this forum, to avoid basic mistakes.

hope it helps
Yeah, I'm sure it was wicked helpful. That'll shut him up!
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Old 02-12-2009, 08:34 AM   #35
NagaBaba
 
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Yeah, I'm sure it was wicked helpful. That'll shut him up!
Hi Mary,
I know that make jokes over internet is not easy thing, but as far I know myself, I must be kidding

However in every joke there is some part of true

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 02-12-2009, 08:35 AM   #36
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
You're funny.
I'm doing my best, thanks Christian!

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 02-12-2009, 08:44 AM   #37
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Garth Jones wrote: View Post
"Fragile female spirit" ??? I have never, in 20 years of training, met a serious female aikido student who I would describe as having a 'fragile' spirit on the mat. And I know several who would drill me into the mat for suggesting such a thing.

Garth
This is only appearance, as usual. Female aikido students are in reality very fragile and vulnerable. They like to looks tough, but nobody practice with them in the same way as with a man of the same weight and force. Be true with yourself. If you are real men, your Nature will never allow you to do that. We have it genetically and we don't need to be hypocrite about it.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 02-12-2009, 08:48 AM   #38
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote: View Post
I realise the concept of everyone being equal and everyone being the same on the mat but at the same time I believe different types of people (introvert/extrovert?), male female agressive passive need (at least at times) different methods of teaching and instruction.
We are not talking here about instruction, we are talking here about direct physical interaction by using martial techniques between mal and female aikido student.

The concept of ' everyone being equal and everyone being the same on the mat ' is hypocrisy, and is entirely false.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 02-12-2009, 08:50 AM   #39
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

I hate being told what we're talking about.
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Old 02-13-2009, 11:31 AM   #40
heathererandolph
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Chantal:

What it boils down to is you are looking for ways to tell another student how they can improve your practice. It is a good skill to learn because students don't necessarily have to "put up" for lack of another word, with behavior that they feel is not as helpful as it could be. Often students are hesitant to tell uke to attack differently, perhaps because they don't realize it's an okay thing to do.

I think the best place to let other students know your preferences is during the technique itself, unless talking is prohibited. You could say for example: "if it's okay with you can you grab me here (gesturing) the way the instructor showed it?" or something along those lines. If it's a pin, I'd just leave that one alone if I were you just because it's really their practice that is suffering not yours in that situation because your are uke.

I wouldn't get into the whole man/woman thing because although it is probably relevant in your case, what you're really dealing with is communicating to your uke how they can help you to have your best practice at this time. Also, there could be other factors, but why is not so important as how to change the behavior.

Even with you best efforts, not every student may pick up on it or if they are uncomfortable with a particular grab, maybe your instructor can come up with a similar grab. I'm unsure how much your technique will suffer in the long run even with the attacks you describe. Things always change within the dojo, people come and go, maybe there will be some other women eventually or men with different attitudes.

Working with other students is a valuable skill. It's important to let your partner know when you need a different attack, a slower attack, a push, a pull, etc... It's important to focus on your own training. Whatever "vibes" you are getting from them, well that's their problem, not yours, try to ignore it.
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Old 02-13-2009, 04:54 PM   #41
Chantal
 
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Heather ... I totally understant what you are saying. Yes, it is about training and letting the others know what they should or shouldn't do to help my training. I was looking for good things to say (in a non-threatening way) that would get that message across ... and I think that if I keep it to "training" .. it should be viewed as acceptable and they should be receptive to my reccomendations. thanks

For the guys out there ... would you see that as good ... being asked by a female student to "grab here like the sensei did ... I think it will work better ... OR ... could you grab a bit more firmly and not let go ..." or should I actually approach it on a "male -- female thing" ?? I know that they are worried about being disrespectful and accidentally grabbing a "boob" or something ... so I understand their discomfort ... or should I approach with humour .... jokingly saying "they are not made of glass, they will not break"??? ideas ... suggestions??

Chantal

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Old 02-13-2009, 09:27 PM   #42
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
We are not talking here about instruction
Well some us were.
*I* was and I'm a pretty big deal.

Quote:

The concept of ' everyone being equal and everyone being the same on the mat ' is hypocrisy, and is entirely false.
I agree people are different. We should strive for the same standard of training and level of interaction but understand everyone is different.

That said I don't instruct martial arts sooooo

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If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 02-13-2009, 09:32 PM   #43
Garth Jones
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Chantal,

I don't know if you wear a judo gi, but if you practice various shoulder and lapel grabs, and grabs in the middle of the chest, I would recommend it. In any event, what I often do with various grabs like that is make sure the gi is standing away from my skin a little so that the only thing grabbed is my gi. I have permanent marks on my upper arms where people have grabbed skin as well - no fun! This has the added benefit of indicating to your partner where you want them to grab - a nice subtle hint.

Of course, sometimes things are going on too quickly for that, so... If you are sufficiently senior to your partner, you can simply say, 'hey, grab here.' If you are junior, ask it as a question, "isn't the grab here?" Hopefully at that point your partner will get the idea and just attack you. If not, maybe try a quick, 'don't worry about it' and see what happens. If that doesn't work, then maybe humor, or a longer talk is necessary.

I hope this is helpful.

Cheers,
Garth
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Old 02-14-2009, 09:19 AM   #44
Diane Stevenson
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
This is only appearance, as usual. Female aikido students are in reality very fragile and vulnerable. They like to looks tough, but nobody practice with them in the same way as with a man of the same weight and force. Be true with yourself. If you are real men, your Nature will never allow you to do that. We have it genetically and we don't need to be hypocrite about it.
Szczepan, I appreciate that you are trying to be honest, and I realize that perhaps you train for reasons other than martial application. However, there are many women like myself who do train with martial intent. I don't expect that an assaliant would treat me gently because I am a woman. Any training partner who would use less than a serious attack, and yes I mean using his weight/height/strength to his advantage, is doing me a serious disservice.

If my dojo-mates care about me, they will do their best to help me learn to overcome someone bigger and stronger, not hold back and teach me false self-confidence.

Last edited by Diane Stevenson : 02-14-2009 at 09:26 AM. Reason: spelled name wrong

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Old 02-14-2009, 10:26 AM   #45
Chantal
 
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Diane Stevenson wrote: View Post
However, there are many women like myself who do train with martial intent. I don't expect that an assaliant would treat me gently because I am a woman. Any training partner who would use less than a serious attack, and yes I mean using his weight/height/strength to his advantage, is doing me a serious disservice.

If my dojo-mates care about me, they will do their best to help me learn to overcome someone bigger and stronger, not hold back and teach me false self-confidence.
very well said Diane ... I agree with you. This is the reason I prefer to train with men, because they are bigger than me and stronger. The likelyhood of me having to defend myslef against a smaller and weaker man is next to being nil!!! So yes, I want the guys to train with me seriously.

Garth ... I do wear a gi ... and sometimes the men are hesitant. I think that if they read these posts they would no longer feel akward about grabbing me ...

So far though ... things have been good at the dojo. The guys are training more seriously with me ( i think the fact that I landed on my parter last week and cracked a joke about it ... has made them realize that I have agood sense of humour when it comes to uncomfortable situations .. I really am easy to talk to and get along with)

Chantal

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Old 02-14-2009, 10:53 AM   #46
Garth Jones
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Chantal,

Oh, I assumed you wore a gi. I specifically meant the pleated, heavier judo gi top, as opposed to the thinner karate gi. The judo gi top is easier to grab, much less likely to rip, and also soaks up more sweat!

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that your training is getting better.

Cheers,
Garth
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Old 02-14-2009, 07:59 PM   #47
Chantal
 
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Garth Jones wrote: View Post
Chantal,

Oh, I assumed you wore a gi. I specifically meant the pleated, heavier judo gi top, as opposed to the thinner karate gi. The judo gi top is easier to grab, much less likely to rip, and also soaks up more sweat!
yes that is the one!!!

Chantal

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Old 02-15-2009, 04:43 PM   #48
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Szczepan-san, et al:

A few more thoughts:

men and women have different strengths and different weaknesses.

Men may be physically stronger than women, but that doesn't mean women are fragile. Oftentimes, women have greater endurance than men, and they are usually emotionally stronger.

Also, if you have to rely on strength to do technique, is it really aikido? There will always be someone who is stronger. A great strength of women is that they can't rely on physical strength but have to make pure technique work for them. Many men I see are used to being strong and tough, and rely on that in their aikido, at the expense of proper technique.
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Old 02-15-2009, 08:04 PM   #49
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Diane Stevenson wrote: View Post
Szczepan, I appreciate that you are trying to be honest, and I realize that perhaps you train for reasons other than martial application. However, there are many women like myself who do train with martial intent. I don't expect that an assaliant would treat me gently because I am a woman. Any training partner who would use less than a serious attack, and yes I mean using his weight/height/strength to his advantage, is doing me a serious disservice.

If my dojo-mates care about me, they will do their best to help me learn to overcome someone bigger and stronger, not hold back and teach me false self-confidence.
For me, it depends on the partner's level of skill and confidence. If I'm training with my former sensei who is a 5th dan, then I can attack without worrying about her safety (Hell, I'd be afraid for my own safety).

But if I'm training with a female 6th kyu who's only been on the mat a couple of times and is still afraid of ukemi and/or atemi, then of course I will have to adjust accordingly - NOT because she's female and "fragile" but because she's still a beginner. Most beginners I treat fairly gently regardless of gender. It's really a matter of degrees.

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Old 02-15-2009, 08:24 PM   #50
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Re: man hesitant to train with woman???

Quote:
Rachel Zimmer wrote: View Post
Szczepan-san, et al:

Oftentimes, women have greater endurance than men
Not too sure I agree with this. The job I'm in is one of the more physical ones I think you can find and I don't think physically speaking women have more endurance then men. At all really.

As far as emotionally stronger goes I'd question the references for that too.

I don't know much about Aikido. I do know strength is a MAJOR factor when dealing with any and all physical altercations. In a perfect Aikido (IMO) theory class someone wouldn't need strength and a 98 pound woman could effortlessly control a 250 pound male linebacker.
In reality?
I think you need a blend.

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If you value you're life, keep moving.

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