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Old 03-18-2010, 09:30 AM   #1
Goye
 
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Smile Diference between Awase and Kumi-Jo

Hi to all,..

Jo-Awase Vs. Kumi-Jo

I would like to know your opinion about these two terms because some people use them indistinctly.

César.

Last edited by Goye : 03-18-2010 at 09:34 AM. Reason: be more specific

César Martínez
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Old 03-18-2010, 11:15 PM   #2
JW
 
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Re: Diference between Awase and Kumi-Jo

Hi, it's been a long time since I've been on the mat. In the Iwama tradition if I remember right, we used the term kumijo to refer specifically to a set of "fake fights." Awase forms aren't always fake fights, they can be any kind of paired exercise.
Good info click here.
Any time you have one movement done by one person, and then you have a matching/complimentary movement by another person, it could be called an awase I think. But the kumijo are heavily application-oriented I think.
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:30 AM   #3
sakumeikan
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Re: Diference between Awase and Kumi-Jo

Quote:
César Martínez wrote: View Post
Hi to all,..

Jo-Awase Vs. Kumi-Jo

I would like to know your opinion about these two terms because some people use them indistinctly.

César.
Hi,
Without checking fully my Aikido resources [Saito Sensei books ]I would suggest that the term Kumi jo implies to work done with jo [mostly in pairs]ie the particular weapons branch being studied. Jo Awase is the term used to indicate that in the practice of Jo work one should attempt to blend with the partner.Possibly a fuller explanation might be available in Saito Senseis 5 volume books?
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:48 AM   #4
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: Diference between Awase and Kumi-Jo

Jo Awase are detailed in Saito Sensei's Traditional Aikido Vol 1 whilst Kumi Jo are shown in Traditional Aikido Vol 2..

Also look up the videos of Yasuo Kobayashi Sensei demonstrating the Jo Awase and Kumi Jo on YouTube..

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
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Old 03-19-2010, 12:28 PM   #5
Adam Huss
 
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Re: Diference between Awase and Kumi-Jo

I have been taught that Kumi Jo are Jo pairing...like one-step sparring in karate.

As for awase, that has been taught to me as a particular technique...ie "sasoi awase tsuki" where the awase is a block that strikes a strike and uses the blending momentum to turn into a thrust. Given the actual definition of 'awase' that I found online..I can see how it would make sense in place of kumi for jo pairing sets as well as the awase technique. Forgive me if my romanji is off.

*Note: I think Sasoi Awase Tsuki is adapted from Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, but I could be wrong. We also have Jo awase techniques, but I can't remember the name of one so I didn't mention it. I might be able to post a clip of Sasoi Awase Tsuki if there is interest.

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Old 03-19-2010, 01:45 PM   #6
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Re: Diference between Awase and Kumi-Jo

Jo Awase 1-8, demonstrated by Yasuo Kobayashi, 8th Dan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUmAr0yFbmw
These are the same as the Jo Awase illustrated in Morihiro Saito Sensei's Traditional Aikido Vol 1.

Kumijo 1-7 demonstrated by Yasuo Kobayashi 8th Dan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB6oFfromz8

These are the same Kumijo shown in Vol 3 of Saito Sensei's Traditional Aikido series.

How they differ is an exercise that will be left up to the viewer.

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:51 PM   #7
Rob Watson
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Re: Diference between Awase and Kumi-Jo

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Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
How they differ is an exercise that will be left up to the viewer.
One can also obtain M. Saito "Aiki Jo" DVD and watch the kumi jo as presented by M. Saito with verbal (translated) descriptions/explanations.

M. Saito explains that bit and pieces of the jo are how Osensei presented the material and M. Saito 'strung' them together to make the various forms that have come to called the jo awase and kumijo and others. There is a progression from the early 1970's continuing through H. Saito that one can see the growth and refinement of the forms. Many different folks got a 'snapshot in time' and took that home and carried on that way. The Traditional and Takemusu books (DVDs too) are also examples of these 'snapshot in time' - a stagnant record of a growing evolving entity.

One must note that M. Saito presented 3 new kumijo (not seen in the Kobayashi youtubes) in 1986? at the All Japan event.

One will also note that the kumijo can also be performed in an awase method in which the timing and blending are emphasized and the movements are a bit different. There are many variations as well.

In my mind the jo awase is material from the 1970s and the kumijo are from a later time period. There a great many folks that are much more informed than I in these matters.

In short they are both gifts handed from M. Saito as best he was able to transmit the experiences gleaned from the founder. To summarize the life work spanning so many decades and not perpetrate an injustice is impossible. I am humbled to the point of tears reflecting upon the magnitude of this gift.

Train well

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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Old 03-20-2010, 03:12 AM   #8
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Re: Diference between Awase and Kumi-Jo

Many thanks for your comments, much appreciated.

M Saito Sensei demonstrating the 10 Kumijo at the Aikido Friendship Demonstration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JDbKci5IUk

Yasuo Kobayashi Sensei demonstrating the 10 Kumijo (Shin Kumijo):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuETzlIGy-w

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
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Old 03-25-2010, 08:31 AM   #9
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Re: Diference between Awase and Kumi-Jo

Jhonatan, Joe, Inocencio, Adam and Robert. Thank you very much for your comments, are very useful.....

C.

César Martínez
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Old 03-25-2010, 12:14 PM   #10
sakumeikan
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Re: Diference between Awase and Kumi-Jo

Quote:
César Martínez wrote: View Post
Jhonatan, Joe, Inocencio, Adam and Robert. Thank you very much for your comments, are very useful.....

C.
Dear Cesar,
No big deal.Anytime you require help /info /assistance on aikido just drop me a line.Thanks for your own comments, Cheers, Joe.
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Old 03-25-2010, 12:32 PM   #11
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Re: Diference between Awase and Kumi-Jo

Quote:
César Martínez wrote: View Post
Jhonatan, Joe, Inocencio, Adam and Robert. Thank you very much for your comments, are very useful.....

C.
De nada, César

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Old 03-25-2010, 01:38 PM   #12
Conrad Gus
 
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Re: Diference between Awase and Kumi-Jo

As the previous posters have pointed out, jo awase and kumijo are two different sets of kata.

As taught by Kobayashi Sensei, the awase are practice in a blending manner, with uchidachi and ukedachi moving together for the most part.

In kumijo the attacker (uchidachi) initiates the movement and the defender (ukedachi) reacts.

The training focus for each set is slightly different (as are the movements).

Conrad
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Old 03-25-2010, 06:06 PM   #13
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Re: Diference between Awase and Kumi-Jo

More info here;
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16377

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
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Old 03-26-2010, 06:32 AM   #14
Mark Uttech
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Re: Diference between Awase and Kumi-Jo

Onegaishimasu. I have always translated 'awase' as meaning:
"together". So the kumi jo were paired partner jo kata done with the principle of awase, using the image of a mirror and its reflection. I move when my partner moves; my partner moves when I move. It is basically a method for 'studying' the kata, in my opinion.

In gassho,

Mark

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