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Old 05-20-2002, 12:57 PM   #51
suebailey
Location: sunderland
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Thumbs down

Thanks again and i hope i find a nice place to thanks 4 ur help.
luv sue.
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Old 05-20-2002, 09:59 PM   #52
virginia_kyu
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
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I find it amazing that someone could be so selfish as to gain his experience with the generous time of more experienced students then deny it to those beginners who come after him.

I think Edward should be forced to train with only beginners for the next 6 months.

There is no reason a beginner should have to feel bad for training with more experienced students. I am a beginner and I certainly don't feel guilty about it, and when I have years of experience I will be glad to help anyone who needs it.

-- Michael Neal
-- http://www.theaikidolink.dnsdyn.net/
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Old 05-20-2002, 10:27 PM   #53
PeterR
 
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I think Edward was being a little contrary in his post. If I remember correctly he has only recently been playing with the big boys - can't blame him for trying to fill his cup as quickly as possible. I can understand his frustration and expect in time he will give back us much or more than he got out of his seniors. There is also a point where training with beginners has distinct advantages - but you have to be ready for that.

Far more dangerous animal is the 5th Kyu Shihan.

Quote:
Originally posted by virginia_kyu
I find it amazing that someone could be so selfish as to gain his experience with the generous time of more experienced students then deny it to those beginners who come after him.

I think Edward should be forced to train with only beginners for the next 6 months.

There is no reason a beginner should have to feel bad for training with more experienced students. I am a beginner and I certainly don't feel guilty about it, and when I have years of experience I will be glad to help anyone who needs it.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-20-2002, 10:36 PM   #54
Kat.C
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Well I am frustrated with myself so I can see how someone else would be too! I am finding aikido very hard to learn and just had an awful(but still fun) class tonight, I just couldn't get anything right at all and still do not fall very well either, so most of the other students must go quite slowly with me. I also nearly hurt one other student when my arm went to her throat instead of under her chin and lifting it up. I was speaking a couple of classes ago with one of my sempai and he told me he had been hurt a few times and usually by beginners. So it is no wonder some people do not wish to work with them very often.(of course I'm not implying that all beginners are as bad as me) Also, even though higher ranks can learn from beginners, I think that everyone learns best by working with a higher rank.

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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Old 05-20-2002, 10:45 PM   #55
Edward
Location: Bangkok
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Quote:
Originally posted by virginia_kyu
I find it amazing that someone could be so selfish as to gain his experience with the generous time of more experienced students then deny it to those beginners who come after him.

I think Edward should be forced to train with only beginners for the next 6 months.

Thanks Michael

As a matter of fact, I rarely get any opportunity to practice with someone over 7 Kyu (out of 11 kyu in our system).

I am a beginner myself (3 kyu).

Since my first day in aikido, I was an enthusiatic beginner, willing to move along with the flow of the techniques and never minding to take hard ukemi at any opportunity. Obviously my sempai never considered me a burden. In the countrary, I was and still am the favorite Uke for our teachers and yudansha because of my fearlessness of ukemi.




Last edited by Edward : 05-20-2002 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 05-20-2002, 11:00 PM   #56
Edward
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
I think Edward was being a little contrary in his post. If I remember correctly he has only recently been playing with the big boys - can't blame him for trying to fill his cup as quickly as possible. I can understand his frustration and expect in time he will give back us much or more than he got out of his seniors. There is also a point where training with beginners has distinct advantages - but you have to be ready for that.

Far more dangerous animal is the 5th Kyu Shihan.

Hi Peter!

Once again the advocate of the devil?

By the way, I'm going to meet Bob in about ... 42 minutes.

Cheers,
Edward
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Old 05-20-2002, 11:18 PM   #57
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Edward
By the way, I'm going to meet Bob in about ... 42 minutes.
Please give him my regards. Make sure you tell him first that I didn't tell you the reasons behind my next statement - but I am still looking. God I love being cryptic.

Cheers

Peter R.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-20-2002, 11:21 PM   #58
Erik
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Just for the heck of it.

Anyone ever hear of the 80/20 rule? It's a sales concept which basically says that 80% of your sales will be produced by 20% of your sales force. Hard core management books often comment that the worst thing managers do is try and get the 80% to produce. It won't happen. The argument is that management should focus it's efforts on the 20% and they'll get better results.

I'm not advocating anything with this. Just thought it might make interesting food for thought.
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Old 05-21-2002, 08:06 AM   #59
SeiserL
 
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When I first began (over 7 years ago), the morning class I attend was mostly black and brown belts. Mostly die hard older guys. They tag-team taught me with each taking ther turn. At times I would get double and triple teamed. While I found it frustrating, they never seemed to. Now I get to return the favor. I remind the beginners to thank the people you gave to me of their time and expereince. They too will have the honor of passing it on. My Sensei (Sensei Phong) is very big on this concept.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-23-2002, 01:53 PM   #60
suebailey
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Wink thanks SeiserL

hi SeiserL
thanks for ur advice i just hope i can find a class 'cos so far i have been unsucssfull but thank u for ur help!

till nxt time.
thanks again sue!
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Old 06-09-2002, 11:37 PM   #61
gi_grrl
Dojo: Institute of Aikido Australia
Location: Perth
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I find that the more aikido I learn, the more grateful I am to my teachers and the more I want to be able to teach others in return. Yes, I do believe that training with beginners is beneficial and that in teaching others, I am also teaching myself. But the circularity is wider that the nage-uke or teacher-student role.

By passing on what my Sensei has taught me, I am showing respect to him & his teachings... this flows back to O'Sensei. By teaching others what I have been taught, I extend the flow into the future.

Hmmm. I'm not usually of the metaphysical bent - but there seems to be some sort of ki analogy here

On a more practical level: A dojo would not exist for long without a steady influx of beginners. We all know how many drop out along the way, or take time off to start a family etc etc. If we don't train with beginners and help them become more advanced, we might be left to train with our shadows.

Cheers, Fi.
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Old 06-10-2002, 12:49 AM   #62
suebailey
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Smile Thanks 2 evry1

Hi every1 its sue

thanks for every1's help and advice iv'e been able to locate a class in sunderland at the leasure centre thenks again.

What sort or clothing do u ware for the class is just the same a thai boxing or totally differant.
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Old 06-11-2002, 05:56 PM   #63
danimal
Dojo: Kobayashi Dojo/Higashi Murayama
Location: Tokyo,Japan
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Hi guys,
I am an admitted newbie, but I have a good friend that is a Shodan and he was the one that suggested I join Aikido.
Admittedly, I had the same concerns when I started as Edward seems to have voiced...why in the world would an advanced level student?
Wasn't there another class that I should be going to?

The answer is no, and I am beginning to understand why. Aikido isn't just a combat technique...it is a philosophy. The circular motions, flowing with your opponents movements...it all make sense. Even the name AIKIDO--in harmony with the other person's ki.
How good are you really going to be if you can only flow with a professional's ki?

And as far as newbies who can't even do a proper ukemi practicing with the other students, all I can say is...DUH! Look, most instructors are not idiots. When I first started outI was the ONLY beginner in my class. My instructor, Kobayashi-sensei led me to a corner of the dojo and had me doing the basics..stretching, ukemi, etc, and he'd check up on me every now and then while he was conducting the regular class (we do not, by the way, have beginner and advanced classes. I think that goes contrary to Aikido philosophy as well. How can you be in harmony with the rest of the world if you are separated from it?) It wasn't until he felt that I was ready that he had me practicing with the other students.

Pardon me for saying so, but you sound like the typical western-minded martial arts practicioner. I KNOW. I took JUDO when I was a kid, and took it for 7 years..believe me, I KNOW what it feels like to be thrown at full force, to be thrown so hard that you get the wind knocked out of you. Martial Arts has to be competetive and rough.

That's not what Aikido is. It is a paradox in that its probably the gentlest technique in practice but the deadliest in real life.
Here in Japan we don't often have to use self-defense skills in real life, and perhaps that is not reality either. But I don't think I'd like to learn Aikido your way.

Sincerely,
Dan Nakagawa

P.S.--in my class there are black belts who have--literally--been doing this for 20-30 years (I kid you not) They have the same philosophy, and have no problem working with new students. Just something to think about.
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Old 06-12-2002, 03:42 PM   #64
AtomicGrooves
Location: New York City
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Re: Beginners suck???????????????

Right on Erik! I'm definetely gonna keep all you just said in mind when I train with people . I'm glad that I'll be able to get something from everyone I train with in class!
Great thread! I've been wondering about that one myself.

Peace,

-Atomic

The secret of life is one!-CitySlickers
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Old 06-13-2002, 01:22 AM   #65
suebailey
Location: sunderland
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Well said mate!

Hey danimal

Well said I agree with that compleatly u definately have the right frame of mind for the martail arts sceane Ive done thai boxing which is also lots of religion and physcological rather than beating ur opponent which as far as i c it is just an added bonus, (a good 1 though)

Iv'e only just started Aikido and there is only 2 of us as newbeeies all the ohters r middle aged men who have been doing it for a long time.

Thanx 4 that danimal it is really gud to hear a martial arts person speak like that most people think it all fight fight fight and forget about the religious side of things.

Where do u train?

Cheers sue.
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Old 06-13-2002, 08:35 AM   #66
SeiserL
 
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For us to keep progressing, we all need to keep the beginner's mind. I learn a lot when I share with beginners, yet feel that most of my learning started at Shodan.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 06-14-2002, 12:49 AM   #67
suebailey
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Smile Its benaficail.

Hey it me


I think every one benafits from been trainned
together the more expereianced pass on their knowledege to the beginners and the beginners help the experianced to keep their feet on the ground and remember they were newbeeies once and that thy should never stop trainning hard cos theyv'e come so far in my class we all get trainned together and i find it really benaficial i find the more experianced really eager to train with me so they obviously find it good to.

till later have a nice weekend
luv sue
**
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Old 06-16-2002, 09:41 PM   #68
Jermaine Alley
Dojo: Aikido Of Richmond
Location: Richmond, VA
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Training With Newbys

Let me start off by saying that this is a great forum to recieve and give information about aikido and martial arts..i just registered and am totally impressed with the variation of styles and people that we have out here...

I consider myself to be a newby (shodan in aikido) and am never more reminded of that fact than when I get tossed by a senior black belt, or when i totally fudge up a technique. When it comes to working with newby's, i just remember back to my first class and how everyone was humane and patient with me. I really believe that it is my duty at at times to ensure that a newby receives the same dedication and patience that i recieved, and still take in when I am on the mat.

Just remember to have patience, because the study of this art (techniques, and the understanding of "yourself") does not come over night....
take care..
jermaine
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Old 06-22-2002, 12:51 AM   #69
suebailey
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Thumbs down wel said

Hey Jamie

1st welcome to the site and thanks!
Wat u said was spot on all of us were newbies at one point and we should not forget that.
just like u we were thrown for miles by black belts and twisted, and i think we should pay hte newbies starting now the same respect if we dont then they may lose interest and that would mean the art of Aikido would eventually diminish (die out.

So well said mate and thanks agin.
Pls keep on posting ur thoughts!

Luv sue
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Old 06-22-2002, 11:05 AM   #70
Ali Afium
Dojo: Bakkakan Dojo
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Re: wel said

It's the responsibility of more advanced students to practice with beginners.

There is not much more to say about the matter.

In my experience, practice with people new to aikido has shown what I need to work on. It's also shown me skills that I might need as an instructor. I am indebted to my sempai and I repay those debts by working with new, neglected or less-experienced students.
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Old 06-22-2002, 12:57 PM   #71
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
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YAY!! Finally, something I can provide an informed answer to!! (hee hee)

I may be a rank beginner at Aikido, but I'm a highly experienced instructor and teacher in other fields. Being the Dojo 'Zip-kyu' (as I call it), I worried for a time that I'm holding the other students back in their development in Aikido - after all, I've only been doing it for a little over a month and a half; my ukemi is miserable, I have all the grace and 'big circular movement' of a Walmart mannequin. They have to spend more time teaching me the concept behind a move than practicing the move itself.
But then, let's stop for a moment and think about what we are learning Aikido for. Obviously, there are as many reasons for learning Aikido as there are learners, but there are a few regular responses. For instance: "I WANT TO GET BETTER AT AIKIDO"
No doubt. But think for a sec: Does working with a newbie take away your chance to improve? No, it does not, quite the opposite. When training among equally-skilled folk, you have less need to keep thing honest. The 1st kyu that's acting as your uke knows what's coming; she'll roll into it, or breakfall, or whatever without thinking. That's great, but if the idea is to develop Aikido as a self-defence technique, it's unrealistic.
Practicing with a newcomer, however, you have to deal with someone who DOESN'T know how to roll out; doesn't really know what's coming. As nage, you are now faced with having to do the technique perfectly, to avoid hurting uke. You also have to face all the problems that uke brings - foot position wrong, hand coming in from the wrong angle, etc. You may not learn more techniques, you learn more of each technique.
With a newbie like myself as nage, things get real interesting real quick; now you're faced with an entirely new challenge: teaching.
Experience at a skill doesn't give the ability to teach a skill; teaching is a skill in itself. There are NO natural teachers, EVERYONE has to learn first, and this is where you start learning.
I'm going to be hard-nosed about this; after fifteen years of active teaching experience, I can say without a shadow of a doubt; if your student (the newbie nage) is not learning a technique, its NOT due to his lack of experience at Aikido, its due to YOUR lack of experience as a teacher. I know; I've taught people ranging from physics professors to mentally challenged teens; my success rate makes this point for me. (No ego here. Yeah, right! LOL!!)
Remember, when you teach a technique, you have to place yourself in your student's position - what's obvious and crystal-clear to you may (and probably will) be a muddled, confusing mess to your student. You have to draw the fine line between taking things down to his level and condecension or going over his head; no question, it's hard, only experience can teach you that line.
"But Dave," you point out, "I want to learn Aikido, and I can't do that teaching this new dweeb!" Wrong again, sorry. Teaching brings you to the very heart of a skill; you have to be able to analyse a technique and understand each and every one of its concepts in order to teach it to a newcomer; in other words; you have to KNOW that skill 100%. There's no question: it's frustrating. In almost every case I've ever seen, the new instructor was ready to throw up his hands and quit, blaming his student for his own lack. I was the same way, so was my instructor. So was yours, and his/hers. It's part of the learning process.
But doesn't taking all this time teaching a newcomer; and learning to teach, take away from your Aikido? No. You are an advanced student, yes? You are a Shodan, 1st Kyu, whatever; is the development of technique all you should be concerned about?
No! All Senseis were once newcomers; the advanced student of today is the Sensei of tomorrow. You may want to have your own Dojo. I do; and some day, I will. And if you do, you'd better know how to teach, hadn't you? I mean, REALLY know; not just try to imitate those teachers who have gone before.
Well, this (training with a newcomer) is where you start to learn; the grass-roots, if you will. In Aikido, in the Army (my area of expertise), at work, at play, this fact holds true. True, if you spend the time teaching a newcomer how Ikkyo works, you may lose the opportunity to learn Kokyunage-tori-link-lonki-ramma-lamma-ding-dong (I have NO idea what those advanced techniques are called. hee hee!), but you can learn that tomorrow, you have time. Your student needs you.
Now.
Thanks, friends.

Last edited by DaveO : 06-22-2002 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 06-22-2002, 07:36 PM   #72
Paula Lydon
Dojo: Aikido Shugenkai
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Wink

Sometimes I'll attend a beginner's class as I can always improve on my basics and it gives me a chance to return a favor and be usefull. Usually I attend our 'open' classes; mixed bag of beginners, advanced, guests and stray dogs . As we're always getting up and down--to watch Sensei demo--different people land on either side of me and I take what I'm given, training more than the body. Never know what life's going to toss your way outside of the dojo!

~~Paula~~
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Old 06-22-2002, 10:25 PM   #73
SeiserL
 
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We tend to train together with the more advanced belts initiating interaction with the beginners. I often find working with them makes me more conscious of the form of my own technique. It is always an appreciated learning experience.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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