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Old 02-27-2002, 04:10 PM   #26
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
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inheritors of Aikido?

We can hash over the many intricaces of history and who did this and who did that, but what I want to know is ... are we getting the same quality training from either family handed down arts, or from those who have trained with inheritors and pass it down?

That all depends on if you know what you are talking about?

If you never leave your house, or block, or neighborhood ... how do you know there is a bigger world with other things? Because you see things in a store, doesn't mean you understand what they are or what they do?

On the other hand, some of the greatest teachers took from other arts, and created their own style of arts. If you can live a healthy, happy, long life, be it with martial arts or without ... isn't that the whole purpose of learning any art?

Get back on track, children. You need to focus on the purpose martial arts was created for ... to kill ... and the fact that Aikido was changed to polish the spirit and benefit human beings!

In Japanese culture the importance of tracing a lineage, unbroken, back to the kings from the sky is different from the chinese lineage of divine lineage which changes like most cultures with history and progress. Many times, even in aikido, some of the brightest and best teachers are those who question and search for the answers without giving in to those who tell them there are no answers.

If your teacher continues to learn, to question, to explore, and admit to mistakes or lack of knowledge, that is the thirst you need to get when you practice or search for answers!

Check your history, but you will find that most of the higher ranks are not concerned about lineage, even though they respect it? They are concerned about their own quest for knowledge, and making their lives better with their practice.

Hey, life is tough enough to get to my age without major injury from training, or without having to explain every little detail? Say your prayers, give thanks to those who came before us for their sacrifices, and be glad we can play at Aikido instead of using it to kill? Its a lot more fun to play with the other children, isn't it?
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Old 02-27-2002, 05:41 PM   #27
mle
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Re: Re: Naming thread and Newlyweds...

Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury


I don't think I ever said it did, but it helps. Are we disagreeing?
Nah, I don't think so. I'm not a big semantics picker and I don't say I know someone until I HAVE sweated with them on the mat. And had a pint after. ;-)
Lineage is important, certainly, however, in many cases it's in that huge icky grey area where it's up to the individual to decide on the character and history they want from their teacher.
You're right *there*, and you've got some superb connections, but over here in the States we are faced with a baffling array of marketing and copycat schemes.
One of the things I do is learn my potential instructor's lineage, and run like the devil if they are offended that I ask.
Once I have learnt the lineage, I then scrutinize the character of the instructor and students.

I know what I can tolerate in an instructor and what I cannot. Only I can judge that.
Some students of shihan I could not deal with. That's my problem and I won't bring it to them. Others I am deeply fond of, and would follow. Some renegades I like very much.

What I fear most is the closed mind. I can respect someone who is vested in a system, has given themselves to it and receives much from it.

I've moved around a lot, mostly by necessity of my demanding, truth-seeking nature. It hasn't always been pleasant or easy, but it's been a lot of fun.

I still seek what the Founder sought, following his path in my own way. And that is how I understood his directive.

Others may understand it differently, and I treasure that in them, and respect it profoundly.

At least, I try. ;-D

mle

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Old 02-27-2002, 07:22 PM   #28
mle
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Quote:
Originally posted by giriasis
... what of folks who are not? Is that "aikido" although if you walked into the dojo you will see them doing some techniques that look like aikido (especially to the untrained eye)? I'm talking about people who appear and present themselves to be connected to someone but in reality they are not. (Yes, this is a real group and comes from personal

Hey Ann,

Yeah, that happens. Sad fact. There's a lot of that in any area of the martial arts, too.

How can we combat it? Well, we can't, head-on. Unless we wanna go back to the bad old days and start dojo arashi again. That tends to be frowned upon by modenr authorities, I suspect.

However, if we do our research, encourage folks who contact us to do theirs, provide honest open forums (like this on an dlike aikido-l and e-budo and others), we can make a dent.

I'm one of the first to admit and profes that what I teach ain't for everyone. I've been known to turn away or discourage applicants. But I DO offer my assistance in helping find them a place to train that wil suit their needs.

Does unknown or no lineage = not aikido?

Sigh. Here again. Hard to say without more detail. Probably ... no.

But who knows? Maybe there's SOMETHING there. Sometimes, the only answer is to get on the mat, train with the folks and see what they're really about.

Chuck

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Old 02-27-2002, 07:33 PM   #29
mle
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Re: inheritors of Aikido?

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Bruce, man, you need to get your money back from that Dale carnegie course ...

We can hash over the many intricaces of history and who did this and who did that, but what I want to know is ... are we getting the same quality training from either family handed down arts, or from those who have trained with inheritors and pass it down?

In some cases, yes. In some, no. It depends on the situation, the people and the system.

That all depends on if you know what you are talking about?

Exactly! I don't think anyone here could argue with THAT statement ...

If you never leave your house, or block, or neighborhood ... how do you know there is a bigger world with other things? Because you see things in a store, doesn't mean you understand what they are or what they do?

Agreed. One of my students is fond of saying "If you don't date anybody but family, pretty soon ya'll all start looking alike ..."

Cross-training is good, knowing your own system's lineage and workings, and theories can only be made stronger by examining those of other ryuha and systems.

On the other hand, some of the greatest teachers took from other arts, and created

I'd say ALL the great teachers did so. The history of budo has always been one of thesis, antihtesis, synthesis.

Get back on track, children.

Bruce, who are you calling children? There are folks on this forum who have 40 or more years of experience in budo, some of whom are recognized leaders in the budo community. Even the hoi polloi like me can range up to nearly 30 years of training under their belts. Others have been training a few years, but are gifted, talented, dedicated budoka.

Calling people children because they don't conform you your apparently very limited vision of what aikido ought to be is condescending, arrogant and darn near spiteful.

You need to focus on the purpose martial arts was created for ... to kill ... and the fact that Aikido was changed to polish the spirit and benefit human beings!

Yes and yes. And your point might be???


In Japanese culture the importance of tracing a lineage, unbroken, back to the kings from the sky is different from the chinese lineage of divine lineage which changes like most cultures with history and progress. Many times, even in aikido, some of the brightest and best teachers are those who question and search for the answers without giving in to those who tell them there are no answers.

OK, I know I'm unenlightened. What the heck are you trying to say there? Traditional Japanese culture traces th elineage of the emperor (and thus the Japanese people and nation itself) to the gods. So do MOST societies, in fact, I can't think of any who do not.

... Its a lot more fun to play with the other children, isn't it?

Now you're just being small again. You won't make any headway that way, not when you're talking to bright, aware, curious, energetic folks like the people here, some of whom have have more years on the mat than you have on this Earth.

Sigh.

Chuck

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Old 02-27-2002, 07:49 PM   #30
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Re: inheritors of Aikido?

Sorry, those last two posts under MLE's name were actually by me. Jun, I'm FINALLY getting the hng of that logout/login business ...

Sigh.

Chuck

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Old 02-28-2002, 05:29 AM   #31
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
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Lineage of teachers

I am sorry I have to do this, but Chuck ...

Yeah, I am cracking the fifty mark in life, yeah, I am just learning the secrets of many martial arts, and yeah, you need to a major nervous breakdown to re evaluate your priorities, or at least be leveled with an illness, as I have had, that almost totally takes you out of the game.

I am a working guy, a student of history, and a non lineage learner of many martial arts with no motive to profit or making it my living. It took actual demonstrations of techniques, with detailed explainations to convince me of their validity and get me beyond where you are, in your funk, to open my eyes to western training in arts and advanced eastern training.

When people speak of lineage, they allude to these secrets. Simply because that is the shortest path to knowledge by taking it from others who have been there? Well, sometimes you have to go find the answers because no one is gonna tell you.

I started martial arts late in life, and I treated it like a large puzzle with pieces scattered all over the world ... and I was right. If there are a dozen open books about this subject, that is a lot.

So talk about lineage, but what you are seeking is a shortcut.

And I consider myself a child, especially as I grow older. So why not play nice with the other children?

Once you are old, you lose that ego thing about big and strong ... the little old man who beats up the muscular guy in his twenties is what you want to be? Right?
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Old 02-28-2002, 07:13 AM   #32
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Lineage of teachers

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
I am sorry I have to do this, but Chuck ...

Bruce,

You needn't be sorry about talking about who you are and what your background is in this forum. People here are bright, aware and informed. If you expect to sway folks to your point of view, you're much better off approaching them from that perspective than calling them children and speaking in condescending tones.

As for your age, I will note that, in my 45th year, I have discovered that five decades on this earth do not a wise man make, not two a fool.

I do thank you for providing more info about yourself and will offer this advice in as friendly a fashion as I can (and I only hope you take it this way): Chill out. Even at age 50 and with a few years of budo under your belt, you're still quite a novice when compared to others on this forum.

I personally know a couple of folks lurking hereabouts who are pushing or are just past 50 years on the mat.

I've done budo for 27 years myself and IN know others here ranging from a few years to several deacdes.

If you expect people to take you seriously, you must show them respect, do your research, be prepared to discuss (calmly and rationally, without name-calling or rhetoric) the fact and to facotr in the experiene levels of the folks you're talking to.

Just because you've found a truth does NOT mean it's valid for everyone everywhere.

martial arts, and yeah, you need to a major nervous breakdown to re evaluate your priorities, or at least be leveled with an

You're not the only one. In my own life, in recent years, I've experienced divorce, bankruptcy, loss and depression. And my budo is the one thing that kept me going. And my tale is pretty minor compared to some I know.

I know very senior and well-respected folks in the budo community who have been through all this and worse who STILL are respectful, open-minded, willing to learn, willing to give without judgement. THAT'S what it's all about. THSOE are the lessons to be learned.


illness, as I have had, that almost totally takes you out of the game.

I don't know what you've suffered, but I can only hope (truly) that things are getting better for you. Nonetheless, that does not excuse rudeness, arrogance or a holier-than-thou attitude.

beyond where you are, in your funk, to

Just want to be clear here: _My_ funk or _yours_?

I assure you, my eyes are wide open and my years of experience have tempered my perceptions keenly.

Well, sometimes you have to go find the answers because no one is gonna tell you.

And sometimes, the only paht to knowledge is just to keep training, keep studying, keep learning, keep growing.

One of the most true things I've ever learned in budo is this: There ARE no secrets. It's all there for the taking, if we have eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart capable of taking it in.

So talk about lineage, but what you are seeking is a shortcut.

Not me. Don't NEED a shortcut. I LIKE the journey. Budo study is not about a destination, it's about getting there. If anyone tells you otherwise, they're trying to sell you something or have been misinformed themselves.

Once you are old, you lose that ego thing about big and strong ... the little old man who beats up the muscular guy in his twenties is what you want to be? Right?

Bruce, you're only five years older than I. I am not old. Dunno about you, but I expect to live another 40 or 50 years and be an irascible old coot, to boot.

And I have no need to beat up 20-somethings. Been there, done that. I did the karate thing (trad. and full-contact) when I was young and it was fun, I learned a lot, but it was only a game. I've been a soldier and a healer, and now I'm a teacher and writer and something of a historian myself.

I have nothing to prove except to myself and that road is plenty fo me.

Chuck

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Old 02-28-2002, 07:43 AM   #33
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
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lineage to O' Sensei/aikido?

There is only one definitve place to answer this question, and that is to ask Hombu dojo in Japan.

But ... even if the answer is yes or no, I believe it is the spirit of Aikido that changes something from a budo, to the Aiki that Ueshiba envisioned.

Just like it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, but it is a different bird ... well ... is it done in the spirit of Aikido, or not?

As for lineage ... only the actual techniques can be traced as lineage, as their ability to properly work will be the test of time.

As for Chuck? You have much anger ... examine it, and find a way understand it.

Maybe you need the same lesson many western participants have from those older sensei in their 70s and 80s give to those who wish to learn ... three hours of uke, and you get a lesson like you are just beginner? Not me, I have seen others get this lesson. They came out of the room, humbled, and receptive to every lesson thereafter, even with forty years of practice.

I apologize for using this topic as a personal affront, but in my experience, the most advanced people are the most polite and friendly, on and off the training mat.
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Old 02-28-2002, 08:07 AM   #34
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: lineage to O' Sensei/aikido?

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
There is only one definitve place to answer this question, and that is to ask Hombu dojo in Japan.

No, not really. Actually, there is no one answer. And that's a typically Japanese situation.

As for Chuck? You have much anger ... examine it, and find a way understand it.

LOL! My friend, I'm not angry. I'm happier than I've been in decades. You need to take a good look in the mirror.

Maybe you need the same lesson many western participants have from those older sensei in their 70s and 80s give to those who wish to learn ... three hours of uke, and you

I still have no clue what you're on about, Bruce. Or what lessons you think I need to learn.

I apologize for using this topic as a personal affront, but in my experience, the most advanced people are the most polite and friendly, on and off the training mat.

Agreed. What's your excuse for being rude, demeaning and condescending?

Folks, sorry this discussion got to such a cluster. I think friend Bruce has a bone to pick of some sort and has for whatever reason, chosen me with whom to pick it.

Bruce, sorry, but you're now on my official 'ignore' list'. I'm sure that doesn't bother you, but perhaps folks can continue this discussion in peace without our bickering.

Chuck

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Old 03-01-2002, 07:54 PM   #35
Tony Peters
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Back to the subject at hand

Is it only Aikido if it comes from Ueshiba???
I'm inclined to say no. All aikido is not Ueshiba ryu. Too many other people have come the a similar point with out Ueshiba's help.
As to Tohei being asked not to use the term Aikido. From all that I have read and from the folks here in Hawaii that I've talked to who were around at the time of the break up there was a lot of nastiness at that time. The Ueshiba's desire for "ownership" of the term "Aikido may have stemed from that.
While Aikikai (and to some extent Tohei) aikido may be about polishing the mirror not all aikido is I'm fairly sure that NGA is much more about self defence than mirror polishing. I doubt the Yosh folks would agree with the mirror polish comment either. Many people like Aikido for its effectiveness and could care less about its spiritual side. That doesn't make them wrong just different than you. Aiki just is...you either accept it or lose to it

Last edited by Tony Peters : 03-01-2002 at 07:57 PM.

Peace
Tony
Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow
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Old 03-01-2002, 09:49 PM   #36
Edward
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Re: Back to the subject at hand

Originally posted by Tony Peters


Is it only Aikido if it comes from Ueshiba???


Yes. If not, it's called Aiki-Jujitsu or Aiki-Jutsu, and it's probably extinct over a century ago.


While Aikikai (and to some extent Tohei) aikido may be about polishing the mirror not all aikido is


This is the trap every one falls into. I have had the chance to practice with both Yoshinkan and Aikikai and see demonstrations by both. Aikikai is much more flowing, but in terms of brutality, power and efficiency, I think both styles leave nothing to be desired.

I think dojos of all styles who claim to adapt the training strength to the members abilities, say Aikido is for all, Aikido is love, and all other cliches are just being hypocrit and do this for commercial reasons, trying to attract middle-aged money loaded customers. Training sucks at such dojos.

Just go to practice at Aikikai Hombu dojo once and tell me if it was "polishing the mirror".

Last edited by Edward : 03-01-2002 at 10:05 PM.
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Old 03-01-2002, 11:56 PM   #37
Chris Li
 
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Re: Re: Back to the subject at hand

Quote:
Is it only Aikido if it comes from Ueshiba???


Yes. If not, it's called Aiki-Jujitsu or Aiki-Jutsu, and it's probably extinct over a century ago.
Not necessarily. There are other arts that have used the name "Aikido". Even many Daito-ryu dojo that have used the name. Ueshiba's decendents are the most numerous users of the name, but not the only ones.

Quote:
Just go to practice at Aikikai Hombu dojo once and tell me if it was "polishing the mirror".
Depends whose classes you go to . Off and on I think that I spent 2 or 3 years training at hombu, although I don't get there much these days. There's a fairly wide range of styles and practices.

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-02-2002, 07:13 AM   #38
mle
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Re: Re: Back to the subject at hand

Originally posted by Tony Peters

Is it only Aikido if it comes from Ueshiba???


Originally posted by Edward

Yes. If not, it's called Aiki-Jujitsu or Aiki-Jutsu, and it's probably extinct over a century ago.

Edward,

Please, please, please. Do more research. That statement is just wrong. Point-by-point: I know of two extant, practicing systems calling themselves aikido who have tenuous conections at best to Ueshiba-ha aikido and both are recognized in budo circles as having legitimate use of the term 'aikido.'

Second, there are several systems of Daito Ryu or DR derivatives actively practicing an teaching aikijujutus today, and they have dojo all over the world.

Originally posted by Tony Peters

... about polishing the mirror not all aikido is


Originally posted by Edward
This is the trap every one falls into. I have had the chance to practice with both Yoshinkan and Aikikai and see demonstrations by both. Aikikai is much more flowing, but in terms of brutality, power and efficiency, I think both styles leave nothing to be desired.

Edward, you really need to take those blinders off and get out more. I can point at a Yoshinkan godan in Toronato who is as smooth, flowing and graceful a ANYONE I've ever seen in aikikai dojo. I know a few folks in the ASU (a style noted for it's flowing, graceful, powerful aikido) who have been positively brutal. Otheres who have the ability and choose not to, too.

Aikido is bigger than the little slice of it you are appaently willing to allow into your worldview.

Yoshinkan basics are very mechanical, methodical, and to some look very stiff. I can tell you however, that the ultimate goal is the same as aikikai -- flow, grace, power, control. And there are folks in the Yosh world who do this very, very well.

Originally posted by Edward

hypocrit and do this for commercial reasons, trying to attract middle-aged money loaded customers. Training sucks at such dojos.

You're painting some might broad strokes there, Edward. I reiterate: you need to get around more.

Do you even realize how MUCH variation there is at aikikai hombu? How many different flavors of aikido you can get there? Talk to some of the folks on this board about the diversity there, then start looking at the many shihan worldwide who are each practicing and teaching their own flavor. More selections than Baskin Robbins ...

Chuck

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Old 03-02-2002, 10:15 AM   #39
Edward
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Re: Re: Re: Back to the subject at hand

[quote]Originally posted by mle

Edward,

Please, please, please. Do more research. That statement is just wrong. Point-by-point: I know of two extant, practicing systems calling themselves aikido who have tenuous conections at best to Ueshiba-ha aikido and both are recognized in budo circles as having legitimate use of the term 'aikido.'

Second, there are several systems of Daito Ryu or DR derivatives actively practicing an teaching aikijujutus today, and they have dojo all over the world.


Hi Chuck,

I really respect your opinion. However, this is something on which I'm afraid we'll disagree. My statement is not wrong, neither is yours. It's a matter of principle. I believe that a linear relation to Osensei is an essential condition to use the name Aikido. You might believe otherwise, and you're completely in your right to think so.



Edward, you really need to take those blinders off and get out more. I can point at a Yoshinkan godan in Toronato who is as smooth, flowing and graceful a ANYONE I've ever seen in aikikai dojo. I know a few folks in the ASU (a style noted for it's flowing, graceful, powerful aikido) who have been positively brutal. Otheres who have the ability and choose not to, too.

Aikido is bigger than the little slice of it you are appaently willing to allow into your worldview.

Yoshinkan basics are very mechanical, methodical, and to some look very stiff. I can tell you however, that the ultimate goal is the same as aikikai -- flow, grace, power, control. And there are folks in the Yosh world who do this very, very well.


Here I'm afraid you misunderstood me a little, since what you are saying to me is what I really believe, and I was trying to explain it to Tony Peters. I agree with you 100% on this matter.



hypocrit and do this for commercial reasons, trying to attract middle-aged money loaded customers. Training sucks at such dojos.

You're painting some might broad strokes there, Edward. I reiterate: you need to get around more.

Do you even realize how MUCH variation there is at aikikai hombu? How many different flavors of aikido you can get there? Talk to some of the folks on this board about the diversity there, then start looking at the many shihan worldwide who are each practicing and teaching their own flavor. More selections than Baskin Robbins ...

Chuck [/b]

Again I agree with you. Unfortunately, there are many flavors at Bakin Robbins that I don't like. Some of them are artificial, some are meant to draw customers, I prefer the genuine ones with natural ingredients and real flavor. Ice cream is not for every one. You have to be serious about it.

By the way, thanks for your recommendation about the teacher in Freiburg. I probably won't have the chance to visit there, but I'll keep it in mind.


Cheers,
Edward
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Old 03-02-2002, 10:25 AM   #40
Edward
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By the way, Yoshinakan Aikido is my favorite Aikido, after Aikikai that is

I like very much its power and absence of religious nonsense. But it's up to the teacher as stated above.

Cheers,
Edward
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Old 03-02-2002, 12:09 PM   #41
Bruce Baker
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Instructors budo lineage

I have one final note on this subject.

If someone does a type of something, then goes to have it catagorized for a library, or referenced, where would you put all the teachers who teach different forms of the art we call Aikido?

Should we rename the Art?

Or haven't we referred to other arts that do simular techniques, "... the same as Aikido."

Is Aikido a patented name that can only be used because someone pays money for the use of its name? Or should we be more concerned that the we are correctly learning and passing down the essence of this art so that the blurred lines of a story told a thousand times doesn't happen?

Can anyone truly say that every art of war/ or a soldiers with hand to hand defense arts has learned a pure art? That is where martial arts derives all of its necessity? Combat ... war ... killing? Taking what ever is required to succeed.

How many special martial arts trainers for law enforcement use a mix of Aikido, Jujitsu, and other blends of arts to train their students? Very rarely do you hear this technique come from Jujitsu, Aikido, etc?

Sooner or later, those who call their art something other than Aikido will be classified under the art?

It is kind of like the story of the dead General and the dead soldier, what is the difference?

It really doesn't matter to either of them, they are both dead.

So, isn't this really a moot point with sound and fury, having only meaning old people sitting around on a sunny day?

Please don't pick the sentences apart, Chuck. I only wanted to convey O'Sensei's spirit of sharing knowledge, love of the universe, and Aikido's synthesis of combat art to a safe effective art with hidden techniques with it?

Enjoy your practice, and look for more than meets the eye, everyone!
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Old 03-02-2002, 12:13 PM   #42
Tony Peters
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not true

an attachment to Osensei is not a requirement for use of the term Aikido. Nor is an attachment to the Kodokan required for use of the term Judo. Your belief however strong is wrong even from a purely language POV. That's like saying that all iaido is seitei. The Aiki world is bigger than the Ueshiba-ha line that is fact. Though many english speakers have a thing about words and their possesion (especially when they come from another country) the same isn't as true for many generic japanese words (which aikido is).
BTW I wasn't refering to touchy feely flowing aikido when I said polishing the mirror (though maybe that's what that term has come to mean) I was refering to those who train in aikido for the betterment of self as opposed to those who train for the purpose of self defence. Me I'm of the second flavor, if I get the mirror polished in the process fine but that isn't my primary focus. I do beleive that mainstream Aikido has lost much of it's martial intent...whether that is good or bad is a matter of opinion.

As for me I have trained in enough Aikido dojos in this world (now over 30 in my travels) in my 8 years of aikido training to have seen a great deal of what aikido has to offer. Please don't think that because aikido isn't an art I presently train in that I don't know anything about it or that I haven't actually at least seen the Hombu Dojos. Open your mind.

Last edited by Tony Peters : 03-02-2002 at 12:16 PM.

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Old 03-02-2002, 12:33 PM   #43
Erik
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Speaking of Yoshinkan types with a bit of flow in them. The Yukio Utada clips on the page below seem to have a bit of that.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/expo/instructors.asp
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Old 03-03-2002, 12:49 AM   #44
Kenny
 
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I was recently given an electronic copy of a very large collection of quotes and writings attributed to O'Sensei. Here's one that really seems to address the question.
--- Quote --
In the past, Martial Arts were mistakenly used to support the seemingly unending killing that characterized Japan's past. Aiki, on the other band, is to save human life. Put another way, Aiki is the way of preventing injury to others. Respect for human life is the way of Aiki, and this is why the "Ai" of "Aiki" is closely related to another Japanese word "Ai," which means "Love." It is because of this relationship, in fact, that I originally named my own way "Aikido." This also means that the "Aiki" mentioned by martial arts practitioners of old is fundamentally different in both content and form from what I refer to by "Aiki." I hope that everybody will think carefully about what I am saying here.

-- End Quote --
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