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Old 12-25-2008, 05:06 PM   #1
carlo pagal
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What's the Difference in Aikido Practice During 60's Compared to Now?

what do you think is the difference in mat practice during the 60's compared to now? which do you prefer and why?
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:41 AM   #2
DevinHammer
 
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Re: whats the difference in aikido practice during 60's compared to now?

Everyone was 40 years younger!

"Do, or do not. There is no 'try'."
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Old 12-26-2008, 03:52 AM   #3
Mato-san
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Re: whats the difference in aikido practice during 60's compared to now?

In the 60's Aikido was a root...now we have branches and leaves

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 12-26-2008, 06:05 AM   #4
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: whats the difference in aikido practice during 60's compared to now?

Quote:
Carlo Paul Pagal wrote: View Post
what do you think is the difference in mat practice during the 60's compared to now? which do you prefer and why?
Didn't start till 1974...... and we went at it like bulls in a china shop!!

No political correctness then and no litigation either ........ just got on with it!! We were quite proud of the bruises and the like...... just accepted it as being part & parcel of what we did...... a martial art!!

How things change....... and not for the better as far as I am concerned.......

But that's how it is ......
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Old 12-26-2008, 06:21 AM   #5
Mato-san
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Re: whats the difference in aikido practice during 60's compared to now?

Aikibudo- Aikijuijutsu- Aikido- please enlighten me what exactly is the beginning?
My co-Aikidoka have memories of knocking on a door in the 60's
is that Aikijuijitsu day?

/

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 12-26-2008, 03:58 PM   #6
mikeg
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Re: whats the difference in aikido practice during 60's compared to now?

Quote:
Mathew McDowell wrote: View Post
Aikibudo- Aikijuijutsu- Aikido- please enlighten me what exactly is the beginning?
My co-Aikidoka have memories of knocking on a door in the 60's is that Aikijuijitsu day?
According to the Aikido Journal Web site:

Quote:
The art evolved gradually during the late 1920s and 30s under various names. Its modern name was officially adopted in 1942 as a result of the reorganization of Japanese martial arts by the DAI NIHON BUTOKUKAI. Its emergence as a major martial art and its spread outside of Japan took place after World War II.
See also "From aiki-jūjutsu to aikido"
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Old 12-26-2008, 11:22 PM   #7
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: whats the difference in aikido practice during 60's compared to now?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Didn't start till 1974...... and we went at it like bulls in a china shop!!

No political correctness then and no litigation either ........ just got on with it!! We were quite proud of the bruises and the like...... just accepted it as being part & parcel of what we did...... a martial art!!

How things change....... and not for the better as far as I am concerned.......

But that's how it is ......
I am with you on this one. I think things were better back then. More serious training and not all of this watered down stuff that you see nowadays. If you train like they did back then, people complain that you are being too rough. As you said, this is a Martial Art!

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Old 12-27-2008, 03:09 AM   #8
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Re: whats the difference in aikido practice during 60's compared to now?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Didn't start till 1974...... and we went at it like bulls in a china shop!!

No political correctness then and no litigation either ........ just got on with it!! We were quite proud of the bruises and the like...... just accepted it as being part & parcel of what we did...... a martial art!!

How things change....... and not for the better as far as I am concerned.......

But that's how it is ......
Haven't been around that long but I'm guessing this is exactly it " )
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Old 12-28-2008, 10:40 AM   #9
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: whats the difference in aikido practice during 60's compared to now?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Didn't start till 1974...... and we went at it like bulls in a china shop!!

No political correctness then and no litigation either ........ just got on with it!! We were quite proud of the bruises and the like...... just accepted it as being part & parcel of what we did...... a martial art!!

How things change....... and not for the better as far as I am concerned.......

But that's how it is ......
And that IS love.

Since it was Ellis who started this thread it seems appropriate to mention Terry Dobson Sensei, who had a very strong personal impact on my training.
Terry said he started Aikido to save his own life. Aikido was a strong enough art to do that then. Is it still?
Can someone still walk in the dojo and be transfixed by the power that is present? I hope so.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 12-28-2008 at 10:53 AM.

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Old 12-28-2008, 10:57 AM   #10
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: What's the Difference in Aikido Practice During 60's Compared to Now?

I realize now it is a different thread that Ellis started...but ya know, they all seem to tie in. So there ya go.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 12-29-2008, 02:34 AM   #11
Teena Inayan
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Re: whats the difference in aikido practice during 60's compared to now?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Didn't start till 1974...... and we went at it like bulls in a china shop!!

No political correctness then and no litigation either ........ just got on with it!! We were quite proud of the bruises and the like...... just accepted it as being part & parcel of what we did...... a martial art!!

How things change....... and not for the better as far as I am concerned.......

But that's how it is ......
I practiced aikido for 3 years now and am a newbie to this forum...i don't know what and where to start my questions....Would you say that aikido today is not the kind of aikido, O'sensie taught his disciples? forgive my candidness....

in reflection
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Old 12-29-2008, 05:10 AM   #12
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: whats the difference in aikido practice during 60's compared to now?

Quote:
Teena Inayan wrote: View Post
I practiced aikido for 3 years now and am a newbie to this forum...i don't know what and where to start my questions....Would you say that aikido today is not the kind of aikido, O'sensie taught his disciples? forgive my candidness....

in reflection
Teena,
I'm just going by my own experience...... There are still good dojo's around but ya have to use your gut instinct to find out which.....
What I am saying is we used to practice with intent (My students still do, Well they did when we had a dojo.....).
We had the bruises and sprains to prove it.....Of course we took care not to damage too severely as this meant you couldn't practice, but we were quite rough..... (Or those who liked to practice this way).
Black belt was something you got (as I thought then) after a long time practising but with ability, which also meant something...... Other than something to hold your dogi together......
Nowadays they are just handed out as some sort of prize if you just attend and achieve so many hours??.....

Maybe I am just a dinosaur I don't know..... What I do know is that is has stood me in good stead over the years and has worked as a self defence method, but that's all down to the way one practises....
If you want aikido as a health system then that's ok so long as you don't expect it to work for "self defence".

I say train hard while you are young and reap the benefits later on.... and when you get to the stage where training hard is not an option anymore because of age .......then "soft" is ok....

Tony
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Old 12-29-2008, 05:16 AM   #13
philipsmith
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Re: What's the Difference in Aikido Practice During 60's Compared to Now?

Some predictable responses about Aikido being better or more martial!!

Since I began some 40 years ago I've seen Aikido change and evolve. I believe it to be more sophisticated than it was, apparently simpler and "gentler" but actually as if not more effective. Perhaps it's beginning to approach what it often called (with a sneer by some) the thinking mans' (and womens') martial art.

Unfortunately there are a lot of Aikido "dinosaurs" around who seem to think Aikido stopped in the mid-60's.
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Old 12-29-2008, 10:03 AM   #14
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: What's the Difference in Aikido Practice During 60's Compared to Now?

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote: View Post
Some predictable responses about Aikido being better or more martial!!

Since I began some 40 years ago I've seen Aikido change and evolve. I believe it to be more sophisticated than it was, apparently simpler and "gentler" but actually as if not more effective. Perhaps it's beginning to approach what it often called (with a sneer by some) the thinking mans' (and womens') martial art.

Unfortunately there are a lot of Aikido "dinosaurs" around who seem to think Aikido stopped in the mid-60's.
I didn't start Tomiki/Shodokan Aikido till 1974,,,,,,And I prefer the dragon to have "eyes and teeth" ........ doesn't mean I don't "think"....... Just the difference between "thinking" you know and knowing........
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Old 12-29-2008, 10:38 AM   #15
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: What's the Difference in Aikido Practice During 60's Compared to Now?

I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact that 40 years ago, all you guys were younger, aikido was new in the west, and the shihan that came out of japan were young, energetic, vibrant, and had to prove themselves.

Fast forward to 40 years....

We have established hierachry. "Been there done that, wisdom, old bones, etc.

New students come into an organization that was once set up on discovery learning and innovation, to find an established institution that primarily is...well...40 years old.

Maybe it is time for a new generation to break free and innovate again? To re-discover?

I think in many respects that will require the status quo to "let go" and take on a roll of "wisdom" and "guidance", and less of an authoritarian, "do what I say" and "have faith/practice what I tell you" role.

You see this currently within the MMA and BJJ world today. Lots of young folks coming into a practice, they essentially are defining things in many respect for themselves, self discovery...all that.

You know, there are no rules stopping anyone from practicing aikido how they want to....just simply start doing it. Albeit, it can be hard to do this in a existing institution that by nature of the word "institution" may not want to change how they do things!

I think it is probably less about what people today want, and more about how those that have been doing it for 40 years have changed over the years. You guys for the most part control the organizations and institutions, if you don't like it...lets change it!

To be honest, I get tired of hearing "old timers" complain about how "young people" today aren't willing to work as hard, yet they are typically the ones that are in a position to do something about it, yet, they are the ones that are comfortable at the top and really have no great incentive to do something about it!

Not saying anyone hear is that way...but I think it is something worth thinking about!

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Old 12-29-2008, 11:13 AM   #16
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: What's the Difference in Aikido Practice During 60's Compared to Now?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact that 40 years ago, all you guys were younger, aikido was new in the west, and the shihan that came out of japan were young, energetic, vibrant, and had to prove themselves.

Fast forward to 40 years....

We have established hierachry. "Been there done that, wisdom, old bones, etc.

New students come into an organization that was once set up on discovery learning and innovation, to find an established institution that primarily is...well...40 years old.

Maybe it is time for a new generation to break free and innovate again? To re-discover?

I think in many respects that will require the status quo to "let go" and take on a roll of "wisdom" and "guidance", and less of an authoritarian, "do what I say" and "have faith/practice what I tell you" role.

You see this currently within the MMA and BJJ world today. Lots of young folks coming into a practice, they essentially are defining things in many respect for themselves, self discovery...all that.

You know, there are no rules stopping anyone from practicing aikido how they want to....just simply start doing it. Albeit, it can be hard to do this in a existing institution that by nature of the word "institution" may not want to change how they do things!

I think it is probably less about what people today want, and more about how those that have been doing it for 40 years have changed over the years. You guys for the most part control the organizations and institutions, if you don't like it...lets change it!

To be honest, I get tired of hearing "old timers" complain about how "young people" today aren't willing to work as hard, yet they are typically the ones that are in a position to do something about it, yet, they are the ones that are comfortable at the top and really have no great incentive to do something about it!

Not saying anyone hear is that way...but I think it is something worth thinking about!
That is exactly why I began my own dojo at the age of 35 after training for about 15 years . I am deeply grateful for the foundations and opportunities I received from my training. They have provided me with a good basis to move in many different directions. Some of the difference is less 'care-taking' present on the mat and more personal responsibility being emphasized; through the art itself. I believe offering an alternative encourages discernment and inspiration to those who are approaching the art. We all grow from these changes. We all eat humble pie most days, too. It's good for the soul.
I look at some of my students who have been with me for 5-8 years and I know that their generation is different than mine, yet I know the voice of aikido can reach them in their 'language', just as it did to me, if I present the art and stay on task.

Bueno

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:30 PM   #17
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: What's the Difference in Aikido Practice During 60's Compared to Now?

On a slightly different note: it has always really intrigued me that I have met a number of teachers, in aikido and other disciplines, who will keep mentioning how hard it was in their days (60s, 70s), how they trained seven days a week and got their wrists broken by their teachers if they did not jump, how they had a tough judo foundation and so on. But then they tell you to take it slow, not overtrain, be soft on your body etc. I have never quite been able to decide whether (a) some may have become unaware of what got them to where the are now, namely the hard training, or (b) whether they have really found a better route to the top for their own students.

Or (c) it depends on the individual cases...
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:54 PM   #18
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: What's the Difference in Aikido Practice During 60's Compared to Now?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact that 40 years ago, all you guys were younger, aikido was new in the west, and the shihan that came out of japan were young, energetic, vibrant, and had to prove themselves.

Fast forward to 40 years....

We have established hierachry. "Been there done that, wisdom, old bones, etc.

New students come into an organization that was once set up on discovery learning and innovation, to find an established institution that primarily is...well...40 years old.

Maybe it is time for a new generation to break free and innovate again? To re-discover?

I think in many respects that will require the status quo to "let go" and take on a roll of "wisdom" and "guidance", and less of an authoritarian, "do what I say" and "have faith/practice what I tell you" role.

You see this currently within the MMA and BJJ world today. Lots of young folks coming into a practice, they essentially are defining things in many respect for themselves, self discovery...all that.

You know, there are no rules stopping anyone from practicing aikido how they want to....just simply start doing it. Albeit, it can be hard to do this in a existing institution that by nature of the word "institution" may not want to change how they do things!

I think it is probably less about what people today want, and more about how those that have been doing it for 40 years have changed over the years. You guys for the most part control the organizations and institutions, if you don't like it...lets change it!

To be honest, I get tired of hearing "old timers" complain about how "young people" today aren't willing to work as hard, yet they are typically the ones that are in a position to do something about it, yet, they are the ones that are comfortable at the top and really have no great incentive to do something about it!

Not saying anyone hear is that way...but I think it is something
worth thinking about!
Kevin,
There are a lot of good kids out there I just wish I could find them!! and that they would come and fill my "was" dojo.....
The "authorities" and "media" complain and comment about kids getting "fat" and not willing to want to learn a sport or hobby...... What I have found is there is little aid as to whether "local authority" will help somebody who has often given their time for nothing and offered to give it for nothing and are more concerned about "political correctness" and what organization are you from? Oh! you just want to teach aikido for free? .... well there isn't much demand for that as we have to think about what people really want...??
"No I can't afford to set it up myself"..... reply ...."Oh well that's what you will need to do I'm afraid, most of the initiatives we grant only go towards majority "sports" I'm afraid its a very minority thing akido is it called? (pronounced badly) isn't it?..... is that the one with the sticks!?....... or do you mean Taekwondo? isn't that punching and kicking? No I don't think so.......

I throw up my hands in despair!!

Tony
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Old 12-29-2008, 10:18 PM   #19
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: What's the Difference in Aikido Practice During 60's Compared to Now?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I throw up my hands in despair!!

Tony
Throw up a set of hands? Now THAT is old school.

(Sorry, couldn't help meself.)

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 12-29-2008 at 10:20 PM.

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Old 12-30-2008, 01:34 AM   #20
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: whats the difference in aikido practice during 60's compared to now?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Teena,
I'm just going by my own experience...... There are still good dojo's around but ya have to use your gut instinct to find out which.....
What I am saying is we used to practice with intent (My students still do, Well they did when we had a dojo.....).
We had the bruises and sprains to prove it.....Of course we took care not to damage too severely as this meant you couldn't practice, but we were quite rough..... (Or those who liked to practice this way).
Black belt was something you got (as I thought then) after a long time practising but with ability, which also meant something...... Other than something to hold your dogi together......
Nowadays they are just handed out as some sort of prize if you just attend and achieve so many hours??.....

Maybe I am just a dinosaur I don't know..... What I do know is that is has stood me in good stead over the years and has worked as a self defence method, but that's all down to the way one practises....
If you want aikido as a health system then that's ok so long as you don't expect it to work for "self defence".

I say train hard while you are young and reap the benefits later on.... and when you get to the stage where training hard is not an option anymore because of age .......then "soft" is ok....

Tony
Here again, I agree with you. Many people will think that the old school way of thinking is wrong, but look where it has led Aikido. Nowadays, I see people have really bad test and still pass either because they have the hours or they may be someone's favorite student or uchi deschi. I once knew an Instructor who gotten spoken to about the poor performance of his students test. But that was after they had been passed! I have been to so many seminars where there are yudansha who have weak attacks, don't throw atemi and never take the balance. Then they think that I am resisting because they can't do the technique. I believe that in the old days, the training was more serious and Aikido was being taught and learned as a serious Martial Art.

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Old 12-30-2008, 12:36 PM   #21
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: What's the Difference in Aikido Practice During 60's Compared to Now?

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Throw up a set of hands? Now THAT is old school.

(Sorry, couldn't help meself.)
Hello Jennifer....... ha ha!!
Naaaah its just the "Italian" in me!!..........

Tony
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Old 12-31-2008, 05:56 AM   #22
Teena Inayan
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Re: whats the difference in aikido practice during 60's compared to now?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Teena,
I'm just going by my own experience...... There are still good dojo's around but ya have to use your gut instinct to find out which.....
What I am saying is we used to practice with intent (My students still do, Well they did when we had a dojo.....).
We had the bruises and sprains to prove it.....Of course we took care not to damage too severely as this meant you couldn't practice, but we were quite rough..... (Or those who liked to practice this way).
Black belt was something you got (as I thought then) after a long time practising but with ability, which also meant something...... Other than something to hold your dogi together......
Nowadays they are just handed out as some sort of prize if you just attend and achieve so many hours??.....

Maybe I am just a dinosaur I don't know..... What I do know is that is has stood me in good stead over the years and has worked as a self defence method, but that's all down to the way one practises....
If you want aikido as a health system then that's ok so long as you don't expect it to work for "self defence".

I say train hard while you are young and reap the benefits later on.... and when you get to the stage where training hard is not an option anymore because of age .......then "soft" is ok....

Tony
Thanks for the advice here, it clarified some questions i had. Still it would be best to study the 'root' form of Aikido of the 60s and preserved it in a way...but that's me... thanks again and hapi new year to all

Teena
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:58 AM   #23
AsimHanif
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Re: What's the Difference in Aikido Practice During 60's Compared to Now?

Thank you Kevin. I totally agree.
I have also noticed how many of the people who I constantly hear talking about the ‘old, rough, days', don't seem to be in very good physical shape today; which seems to indicate that harder doesn't necessarily mean smarter.
Athletes today are by and large bigger, stronger, and faster. Training methods have greatly improved. Access to information is more widely available. All good stuff.
But I happen to believe there's a lot of ‘questionable stuff' being taught- a lot of it by high level people- people who began training in the 60's/early 70's. Style is replacing substance. If you've ever been in a real fight or competitive situation, you'll know this ‘stuff' will not work…period. And the real old timers…those who've been training 50 years or so, seem to be disappointed by this as well.
If people want to practice aikido as merely a movement art or a sociological experiment…I think that's fine. To each his/her own. But there are dojo seriously training and striving to maintain aikido as a progressive MARTIAL art. Those dojo may be off the radar though. But like Kevin said, its up to this generation to define the nature of practice for themselves in order for aikido to move forward.
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Old 12-31-2008, 11:22 PM   #24
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: What's the Difference in Aikido Practice During 60's Compared to Now?

Quote:
Asim Hanif wrote: View Post
Thank you Kevin. I totally agree.
I have also noticed how many of the people who I constantly hear talking about the ‘old, rough, days', don't seem to be in very good physical shape today; which seems to indicate that harder doesn't necessarily mean smarter.
Athletes today are by and large bigger, stronger, and faster. Training methods have greatly improved. Access to information is more widely available. All good stuff.
But I happen to believe there's a lot of ‘questionable stuff' being taught- a lot of it by high level people- people who began training in the 60's/early 70's. Style is replacing substance. If you've ever been in a real fight or competitive situation, you'll know this ‘stuff' will not work…period. And the real old timers…those who've been training 50 years or so, seem to be disappointed by this as well.
If people want to practice aikido as merely a movement art or a sociological experiment…I think that's fine. To each his/her own. But there are dojo seriously training and striving to maintain aikido as a progressive MARTIAL art. Those dojo may be off the radar though. But like Kevin said, its up to this generation to define the nature of practice for themselves in order for aikido to move forward.
That's the problem. This generation is moving Aikido forward and as such, AIkido is losing many of its key parts. We see little, if any atemi, attacks are weak, and small things like using the hips is starting to become a thing of the past. When I train with most people and I throw an atemi, I usually get no response. It's getting hard to see such widespread 'softness' being passed off as Aikido. Like you said, most people would not be able to handle a real fighting situation. So certain aspects of the old training need to be put back in the daily training of most dojos.Plus, all the politics need to be done away with, but that's another thread.

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Old 01-01-2009, 02:33 AM   #25
Shany
 
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Re: What's the Difference in Aikido Practice During 60's Compared to Now?

40 years ago people wanted to train to be like Ueshiba
Nowdays they want to be like Steven Seagal


A good stance and posture reflects a proper state of mind
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