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Old 06-26-2009, 07:36 AM   #26
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Jon Dyer wrote: View Post
Spot on
That's good to know, but I was hoping for a more elaborate answer.
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Old 07-01-2009, 09:59 PM   #27
Dai Zhi Qiang
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
That's good to know, but I was hoping for a more elaborate answer.
Ok, no problem, I can go into it more, but I would like you to ask me specific questions as I am not really sure what to say.

Please read through the articles on my blog on squatting monkey as well as the interviews with my teacher as they do talk in some detail of our methods.

Regards

DZQ
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Old 07-01-2009, 10:31 PM   #28
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

Dai family Xin Yi has a number of branches. Doing a quick search on Jon and his style, I get the feeling that we're seeing something of an internecine battle about a "style" and who is the real representative of the style, and so on. Couldn't the discussion stick with "how to do these things" rather than devolve to who properly represents Master Yan and so on? Because that's the path I see this discussion ultimately leading to, if it's not cut off at the pass. And I've seen these things for too many years to not recognize the signs:

http://www.tai-chi.co.nz/Addressing%...nately%29.html

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-01-2009, 11:14 PM   #29
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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Dai family Xin Yi has a number of branches. Doing a quick search on Jon and his style, I get the feeling that we're seeing something of an internecine battle about a "style" and who is the real representative of the style, and so on. Couldn't the discussion stick with "how to do these things" rather than devolve to who properly represents Master Yan and so on? Because that's the path I see this discussion ultimately leading to, if it's not cut off at the pass. And I've seen these things for too many years to not recognize the signs:

http://www.tai-chi.co.nz/Addressing%...nately%29.html

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Hi Mike,

Thanks for rejoining the discussion.

I was enjoying this thread as it had a chance for me to compare other methods (Aiki, etc) with what I practice. I would rather not bring up any of the previous problems with my old teacher to contaminate this thread, so I would rather not go there, but if you are interested in talking to me about anything, you are welcome to PM me here or email me at daixinyi@gmail.com.

Now lets get back to the thread shall we.

All the best

Jon Dyer.
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Old 07-02-2009, 01:09 PM   #30
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Jon Dyer wrote: View Post
Ok, no problem, I can go into it more, but I would like you to ask me specific questions as I am not really sure what to say.

Please read through the articles on my blog on squatting monkey as well as the interviews with my teacher as they do talk in some detail of our methods.

Regards

DZQ
Hello Jon,

I posted some links to your post in the introduction section. The two links showed examples of "reacting" against an opponent's force, as aiki arts are wont to do.

My question is: do you have this this "reactive" style within your art as opposed to the "proactive" method of striking, and. if so, does the usage of the "hara" differ according to the method ?

Thanks,
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Old 07-02-2009, 02:03 PM   #31
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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if so, does the usage of the "hara" differ according to the method ?
There's a person named Li Tai Liang who does workshops on Dai-family Xinyi in the U.S. He's a very good fighter and at one time trained the Beijing San-da team, IIRC. The style is sort of a small-frame style, but the important point to look at is that Xinyi (properly "Xinyi Liu He") is a system that uses the ki/kokyu skills in a manner called "six harmonies" because of the way the body is moved as a winding unit. Aikido has the same core skills, but tends for the most part to be more linear, so the usage of the dantien/hara is going to be different in the completeness of the relationships with the body. I.e., although all the styles are going to have essential elements like ki-relationships and kokyu/jin usage, the actual methods of tying these things together is going to differ across the spectrum of CMA's and JMA's.

My 2 cents.

Mike
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Old 07-02-2009, 04:25 PM   #32
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Hi Pat:

It's this one; between 7:33 and 7:50

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ
Rinjiro Shirata sensei does something very similar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

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Old 07-03-2009, 07:25 AM   #33
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Hello Jon,

I posted some links to your post in the introduction section. The two links showed examples of "reacting" against an opponent's force, as aiki arts are wont to do.

My question is: do you have this this "reactive" style within your art as opposed to the "proactive" method of striking, and. if so, does the usage of the "hara" differ according to the method ?

Thanks,
Hi,

I had a quick look at the 2 Aiki video's which were nice by the way (no one in NZ does traditional Aiki Jiujitsu to my knowledge, though I had hear some rumours that there was a group in Rotorua, which is North of where I stay). I did some very brief training in Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido, which was fun, but other things kept my attention more at that time in my life.

As for the question over "reactive" as opposed to "proactive", I am not sure if I 100% understand what you mean (forgive me for being thick, lol).

Do you mean that does our dan tian methods differ when we are neutralising or attacking?

Jon
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Old 07-03-2009, 07:37 AM   #34
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
There's a person named Li Tai Liang who does workshops on Dai-family Xinyi in the U.S. He's a very good fighter and at one time trained the Beijing San-da team, IIRC. The style is sort of a small-frame style, but the important point to look at is that Xinyi (properly "Xinyi Liu He") is a system that uses the ki/kokyu skills in a manner called "six harmonies" because of the way the body is moved as a winding unit. Aikido has the same core skills, but tends for the most part to be more linear, so the usage of the dantien/hara is going to be different in the completeness of the relationships with the body. I.e., although all the styles are going to have essential elements like ki-relationships and kokyu/jin usage, the actual methods of tying these things together is going to differ across the spectrum of CMA's and JMA's.

My 2 cents.

Mike
XYLHQ generally refers to the Chinese Islamic Xin Yi system as treasured by the Hui nationality in China. I previously studied this system (Lushan aka Mai Zhuangtu and Luoyang) for 3 or 4 years before deciding to concentrate on the Shanxi XY (non muslim) sect.

Yes the theory of Liu He comes from this system (or originally from Liu He Qiang- 6 harmony spear) which is said what Ji Long Feng (creator of XYLHQ) based his art on. Though after going to Henan (accompanying my ex teacher) I saw very little internal skill from it's practitioners. This is not me being bias towards the Henan style (as I did practice this at this time I went there) but I never saw anyone with the same quality of movement as my present teacher, which led me to believe that the Shanxi style refined the Henan style (as the Shanxi style is based on the Henan style as well as Preying Mantis, etc).

Xin Yi Dao (which top exponents are Li Tai Liang and Yang Fang Sheng) is a combination of Dai Xin YI Quan (coming from Wang Yin Hai), Che Yi Zhai Xing Yi Quan, Shuai Chiao, San Da and Ba Gua and Taiji Quan.

There is quite a bit of difference between what Li and Yang does. From what I have seen Li doing, it is more orthodox Dai, but Yang's expression is much, much different.

Jon.
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Old 07-03-2009, 08:54 AM   #35
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Yes the theory of Liu He comes from this system (or originally from Liu He Qiang- 6 harmony spear) which is said what Ji Long Feng (creator of XYLHQ) based his art on.
Liu He (six-harmonies) theory comes from much further back than Ji Long Feng. At one time, many current and precursor arts all had "Liu He" as part of their full name. The "internal" skills were codified centuries and centuries ago, not just recently.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-03-2009, 04:02 PM   #36
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Liu He (six-harmonies) theory comes from much further back than Ji Long Feng. At one time, many current and precursor arts all had "Liu He" as part of their full name. The "internal" skills were codified centuries and centuries ago, not just recently.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
I would be very interested in where and when you think this theory comes from as far as I know Liu He theory comes from Ji Long Feng who lived at the later period of the Ming dynasty ( from 1368 to 1644), which is roughly 400 years ago.

I would hardly call 400 years ago recent.

Regards

Jon
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Old 07-03-2009, 04:17 PM   #37
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Jon Dyer wrote: View Post
I would be very interested in where and when you think this theory comes from as far as I know Liu He theory comes from Ji Long Feng who lived at the later period of the Ming dynasty ( from 1368 to 1644), which is roughly 400 years ago.

I would hardly call 400 years ago recent.
Well, look at what I said... "Liu He" was and is part of many martial arts, including many ancient ones. Six harmonies movement with its mode of dantien usage comes from way back. Unless Ji Long Feng had a time machine, all those other arts didn't descend from him. Do you think, for instance, that Tanglang Liu He is an offshoot of Xinyi?

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-03-2009, 08:27 PM   #38
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Well, look at what I said... "Liu He" was and is part of many martial arts, including many ancient ones. Six harmonies movement with its mode of dantien usage comes from way back. Unless Ji Long Feng had a time machine, all those other arts didn't descend from him. Do you think, for instance, that Tanglang Liu He is an offshoot of Xinyi?

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Hi,

From what I can see, Liu He Tang Lang Quan was formed in the mid Qing (1644--1912) by master Wei San, using a combination of Shaolin Liu He Quan and Tang Lang Quan.

Liu He theory was first popularised (if not founded as I have no proof otherwise by Ji Long Feng). In XYLHQ they have a chuan pu called "Ten Principles of Xinyi Liuhe". I decided to post some from it.

"The background of this book include Li Shi Ming of Henan in the 11th year of Emperor Yong Zheng, Wang Zhi Cheng from Xin An, Wang Chen Ling of Ru Province in the 19th year 7th month of Emperor Qian Long, Ma Ding Zhen of Ru Province from 44th year of Qian Long."

It then states, "There is no one style of martial arts, who knows who is the real founder of martial arts? Liuhe came from Shanxi Ji Long Feng, a man who lived in the waning reign of Ming Dynasty, skilled in the spear, known as ‘God' by the populace. As quoted from this man, "In times of war, the spear can be a weapon to protect oneself, but in times of peace, when there are no more weapons, and yet the unexpected happens, how should one defend oneself?"

Thus, he began to change the spear skills into unarmed combat skills, gather all the theories into one book, developed a million moves (translator: again ‘million' in Chinese is contextual, it means very many), named the martial art as Liuhe, with six forms. Why only one book? This is because there is only one soul from the heart. Why so many moves? This is because moves can change and develop. What is Liuhe (Six Harmonies)? The heart harmonises with the intent, the qi with power, ligaments with bones, hand with foot, elbow with knee, shoulder with hip, this is the Liuhe.

I would like you to elaborate on dan tian usage from earlier time periods and if you could name specific styles or give me some examples. Cause I went to many different schools in China (saw nearly every XYLHQ style as well as met many other Nei Jia Quan) and no one had the ability to rotate the dan tian (on a vertical plane) like my present teacher or carried the same type of physical development.

I am not saying that other styles cannot have this, but so far I never met anyone (would love to). I have friends who are Chen style practitioners, but their dan tian methods are not the same from comparison.

Jon
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Old 07-03-2009, 10:31 PM   #39
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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It then states, "There is no one style of martial arts, who knows who is the real founder of martial arts?
I'm taking the liberty of splitting two sentences you ran together. The pertinent sentence is this one above because it essentially refers to a principle that tracks back to Yin-yang, Heaven-Earth-Man. Liu He is a tenet of "natural movement" which far preceeds Ji Long Feng. Six-Harmonies movement is based on the core principles of Yin-Yang, Ren-Du meridians, and so on. Ji Long Feng did not invent this anymore than he invented Yin-Yang and the Muscle-Tendon Channels. Liu-He is from these basics, not Xinyi.
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Liuhe came from Shanxi Ji Long Feng, a man who lived in the waning reign of Ming Dynasty, skilled in the spear, known as ‘God' by the populace. As quoted from this man, "In times of war, the spear can be a weapon to protect oneself, but in times of peace, when there are no more weapons, and yet the unexpected happens, how should one defend oneself?"

Thus, he began to change the spear skills into unarmed combat skills, gather all the theories into one book, developed a million moves (translator: again ‘million' in Chinese is contextual, it means very many), named the martial art as Liuhe, with six forms. Why only one book? This is because there is only one soul from the heart. Why so many moves? This is because moves can change and develop. What is Liuhe (Six Harmonies)? The heart harmonises with the intent, the qi with power, ligaments with bones, hand with foot, elbow with knee, shoulder with hip, this is the Liuhe.

I would like you to elaborate on dan tian usage from earlier time periods and if you could name specific styles or give me some examples. Cause I went to many different schools in China (saw nearly every XYLHQ style as well as met many other Nei Jia Quan) and no one had the ability to rotate the dan tian (on a vertical plane) like my present teacher or carried the same type of physical development.

I am not saying that other styles cannot have this, but so far I never met anyone (would love to). I have friends who are Chen style practitioners, but their dan tian methods are not the same from comparison.
Hmmmm. This is too much of a basic principle for me to have to debate. It's sort of like the basic qi/jin skills.... there has to be a reasonable threshold to the argument before it's worthwhile to engage in. My suggestion is that you take a moment to understand that "natural movement" has a lot to do with Liu He. Ji Long Feng did not invent this... he simply used it in his art.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-04-2009, 09:53 PM   #40
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'm taking the liberty of splitting two sentences you ran together. The pertinent sentence is this one above because it essentially refers to a principle that tracks back to Yin-yang, Heaven-Earth-Man. Liu He is a tenet of "natural movement" which far preceeds Ji Long Feng. Six-Harmonies movement is based on the core principles of Yin-Yang, Ren-Du meridians, and so on. Ji Long Feng did not invent this anymore than he invented Yin-Yang and the Muscle-Tendon Channels. Liu-He is from these basics, not Xinyi. Hmmmm. This is too much of a basic principle for me to have to debate. It's sort of like the basic qi/jin skills.... there has to be a reasonable threshold to the argument before it's worthwhile to engage in. My suggestion is that you take a moment to understand that "natural movement" has a lot to do with Liu He. Ji Long Feng did not invent this... he simply used it in his art.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
If we are talking about Chinese philosophy (which terminology was adopted by Kung Fu styles later on) than yes, Wu Ji, Yin Yang, San Cai, Si Xiang, Ba Gua, Liu He, etc, etc predate the Ming, but these theories have nothing to do with martial arts originally.

Liu He as expressed in Chinese philosophy refers to the top, bottom and 4 directions. Shaolin Liu He Quan uses this theory and later adopted the same theory from XYLHQ from what I have been told.

Jon.
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Old 07-04-2009, 11:29 PM   #41
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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If we are talking about Chinese philosophy (which terminology was adopted by Kung Fu styles later on) than yes, Wu Ji, Yin Yang, San Cai, Si Xiang, Ba Gua, Liu He, etc, etc predate the Ming, but these theories have nothing to do with martial arts originally.

Liu He as expressed in Chinese philosophy refers to the top, bottom and 4 directions. Shaolin Liu He Quan uses this theory and later adopted the same theory from XYLHQ from what I have been told.
Well, I don't feel like it's important enough to get into. Even the basic postures of Open and Close should be enough to answer the question for you.

And BTW.... there's not really that much difference between many forms of Shaolin and the so-called Neijia arts, so your comments about "Shaolin" aren't really that meaningful in relation to six harmonies movement.

The interesting thing to me is that I have never heard of anyone who believed that Liu He was specific to Xinyi or Xingyi before. It's a very ancient concept that is part of the famous idea of "natural movement" and thus tied to Yin-Yang, Heng-Ha, Five Elements, and so on.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-05-2009, 05:56 PM   #42
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

I've heard mention from Rob about "pulling" the hara toward the back (assuming I'm recalling correctly); I've also heard my own sensei describe the need of having the feeling of "sitting back" when doing suburi. Would anyone be willing to elaborate or draw comparisons with other arts as to why this might be a good thing to do?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-05-2009, 06:07 PM   #43
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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I've heard mention from Rob about "pulling" the hara toward the back (assuming I'm recalling correctly); I've also heard my own sensei describe the need of having the feeling of "sitting back" when doing suburi. Would anyone be willing to elaborate or draw comparisons with other arts as to why this might be a good thing to do?
Ultimately, the "Squatting Monkey" that Jon describes does just that. If you want to look at it from the traditional sense, the idea is to "breathe the qi in through the perineum (Bai Hui), up through the tailbone to the MingMen (L3) and then drops down into the dantien".

Hope that helps. Check with your local resident experts.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-05-2009, 09:11 PM   #44
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Ultimately, the "Squatting Monkey" that Jon describes does just that. If you want to look at it from the traditional sense, the idea is to "breathe the qi in through the perineum (Bai Hui), up through the tailbone to the MingMen (L3) and then drops down into the dantien".

Hope that helps. Check with your local resident experts.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
It does and I will! Thank you!

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Old 07-05-2009, 10:05 PM   #45
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

Oops... Perineum area is Hui Yin. What I get for dashing off a post. Sorry.

Mike
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Old 07-06-2009, 12:19 PM   #46
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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As for the question over "reactive" as opposed to "proactive", I am not sure if I 100% understand what you mean (forgive me for being thick, lol).
As Oisin hasn't replied yet...
"Reactive" would be unbalancing/throwing someone by using the force they are using e.g. to push you. "Proactive" would be just releasing power to strike someone.
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:03 AM   #47
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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As Oisin hasn't replied yet...
"Reactive" would be unbalancing/throwing someone by using the force they are using e.g. to push you. "Proactive" would be just releasing power to strike someone.
Yes, that is generally what I was getting at. Apologies. I've been very busy.
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:21 PM   #48
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Yes, that is generally what I was getting at. Apologies. I've been very busy.
As for what tactical responses Dai use I would say the reaction is generated by what the opponent is doing. People get the wrong impression of XY (XYLHQ,Xing Yi) that is a very aggressive linear art which just charges in there to engage your opponent, which is a real generalisation.

Dai Xin Yi Quan has a lot of similar qualities to good Taiji Quan. Ting Jin (listening skills) are very refined and there is also an abundance of peng jin (rebounding force) used in close quarters as that is the range Dai is most effective in.

Shoulders, knees, low kicks and elbows are frequently employed. Dai does not favour the head as emphasised in Henan XYLHQ due to their belief that using the head can restrict the vision when attacking and also presents the neck as a target.

So defence and offence mutually combine, when you are defending you are attacking and vice versa. If there is a hole in the opponents posture you attack if there are no holes then create one.

JB
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Old 07-08-2009, 04:48 AM   #49
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

But is there a difference in usage of the hara/dantien when issuing peng jin (rebounding force) versus doing a shoulder strike?
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Old 07-08-2009, 03:41 PM   #50
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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But is there a difference in usage of the hara/dantien when issuing peng jin (rebounding force) versus doing a shoulder strike?
Hi Joep:

I think your question is more about technique than "use of the hara". Generally speaking the entire set of hara-usage skills (ki/kokyu/qi/jin) is fixed. There is really no "here's how we do ki/kokyu/qi/jin skills differently from other people".... there is only a difference in the completeness and purity of the skills among different styles. And yet even within styles there are different levels of achievement and focus (Ueshiba was better than Tohei who was in turn better than Yakamazuki, etc.).

So if you accept that the only really relevant discussion about baseline/hara skills is the completeness of the skills, then the remainder of the discussion tends to default to the strategies and techniques with which the skills were applied. But that's more of a discussion about technique, not hara usage, as I said.

Incidentally, peng jin is not really "rebounding force" specifically, although generally you could track it back semantically to peng jin. Peng jin is the primary jin, but if you use for a rebound/bounce, it's probably going to be called something else.

Best.

Mike
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