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Old 01-05-2009, 07:52 PM   #1
oisin bourke
 
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Uses of the Hara within different traditions

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Nice little description of building up the interior muscles which are needed to do the body skills mentioned by others...
"The center is under the navel. There are 2 muscles which are vertical and diagonal muscle
under the navel. When you hold in your stomach at practice of Misogi, you can see the muscles.
When you hold in your stomach during serious practice of Misogi, you would feel that the skin
on your stomach sticks to your back. If you practice those 4 kinds of breathing in such situation,
you would get great concentration power.
You hold breathing in the lower part of lung. This power transmits to abdominal muscle. The
abdominal muscle was built up by the practice with breathing. That's why the shape of
abdominal muscle built by Aikido is different from the muscle built by push-ups or physical
exercise."

I've been thinking about this for a while now. Is this part of the body "conditioned" to have different qualities in different arts?

For example, would an art such as hsing i condition a harder, more solid hara compared to an "aiki" art which cultivates a softer, more reflexive hara? Or is this "Quality" merely related to different stages of progression?

Any thoughts anyone?
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Old 01-05-2009, 10:15 PM   #2
Mike Sigman
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
For example, would an art such as hsing i condition a harder, more solid hara compared to an "aiki" art which cultivates a softer, more reflexive hara? Or is this "Quality" merely related to different stages of progression?
There would almost undoubtedly be differences between the hara development in different arts, but I think that often reflects how "pure" the "use the hara" is done in various arts.

In a very pure sense of "use the hara for your movements" there is a form of movement that is referred to as "six harmonies" type of movement. In the old days in China, when martial-arts and cultivating the body (as part of the Dao) were more important, a greater percentage of the arts bespoke themselves as utilizing "six harmonies" movement, the hallmark movement of a full-blown "internal art". Nowadays a lot of those arts still exist but they no longer use the six-harmonies movement and use more ordinary "external" aspects of ki and kokyu skills. The more "pure" a martial-art is, the more the hara/tanden/dantien area is used. I've seen practitioners of Chen's Taiji who have a development in the hara/dantien that comes from constantly manipulating the ki and kokyu skills... to the point that they can push out a small mound of specialized muscles at the dantien that is about the size of a large apple.

My point being that it's not so much that Aikido is different (there are other arts that pretty much use the hara as much as Aikido does), but that the level of hara-usage can vary. In fact, there is generally a lot of variance even within different martial arts, depending upon the skills of the practitioner.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-06-2009, 07:05 AM   #3
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

Thanks for the considered reply.

So, if I understand correctly (and please correct me otherwise),
the use of the Hara and the associated skills required for example to push air through a bamboo flute / manipulate a longbow / lock joints in a grapple are basically the same and are to a greater or lesser degree stages of development towards the fully rounded skills of the six harmonies?

(This being opposed to the Hara becoming hyper conditioned for a specific skill.)

One of the things that got me thinking about these things apart from my own training and experiences with others is the following quote taken from the blog below

http://daixinyi.blogspot.com/search?...&max-results=9

Quote:
YLC) The thing is every style has their own specific way of doing things and not all are compatible with each other. I have only trained in Dai style solely since I was around 20 years old, so I only know Dai style. What I do know though, that my art has our own unique body requirements, that I believe other styles do not have.

For example say you practice Dai style and Taiji, they have completely different requirements. Dai style has a small, compact and narrow frame and ever strike has a contraction, followed by a expansion, this is achieved by rolling the dan tian on a vertical axis. Taiji does not have this, so practicing Taiji will damage your Dai style and vice versa. I don't believe it is good to try and practice many arts at the same time, to me my art gives me all I need and more. You got to ask yourself, do you really want to master your art, or do you want to be somewhat of a collector?

(JB) So you don't think it is a bad idea to practice shuai jiao or bjj while you are learning Dai?

YLC) To me solely concentrating on Dai is best, but I don't really mind people training in a grappling style as long as they train technique over brute force. The reason I don't mind is as long as they don't train striking from other arts, otherwise they will never progress as other art's don't use dan tian like we do.
Thanks for your time
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Old 01-06-2009, 07:25 AM   #4
Mike Sigman
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
So, if I understand correctly (and please correct me otherwise),
the use of the Hara and the associated skills required for example to push air through a bamboo flute / manipulate a longbow / lock joints in a grapple are basically the same and are to a greater or lesser degree stages of development towards the fully rounded skills of the six harmonies?
That's fairly accurate.
Quote:

(This being opposed to the Hara becoming hyper conditioned for a specific skill.)
I would say, just to be a stickler, "as opposed to developing the hara's basic skill possibilities toward a narrow specific art or group of skills".
Quote:

One of the things that got me thinking about these things apart from my own training and experiences with others is the following quote taken from the blog below

http://daixinyi.blogspot.com/search?...&max-results=9
Quote:
YLC) The thing is every style has their own specific way of doing things and not all are compatible with each other. I have only trained in Dai style solely since I was around 20 years old, so I only know Dai style. What I do know though, that my art has our own unique body requirements, that I believe other styles do not have.

For example say you practice Dai style and Taiji, they have completely different requirements. Dai style has a small, compact and narrow frame and ever strike has a contraction, followed by a expansion, this is achieved by rolling the dan tian on a vertical axis. Taiji does not have this, so practicing Taiji will damage your Dai style and vice versa. I don't believe it is good to try and practice many arts at the same time, to me my art gives me all I need and more. You got to ask yourself, do you really want to master your art, or do you want to be somewhat of a collector?

(JB) So you don't think it is a bad idea to practice shuai jiao or bjj while you are learning Dai?

YLC) To me solely concentrating on Dai is best, but I don't really mind people training in a grappling style as long as they train technique over brute force. The reason I don't mind is as long as they don't train striking from other arts, otherwise they will never progress as other art's don't use dan tian like we do.
Well, this is something I've commented on before in a few posts. There are different permutations of the ki/kokyu skills, so a person has to be careful and not learn, say, a hard karate's approach to training and doing ki/kokyu and then trying to slip it into Aikido, thinking that it is the same ki/kokyu skills as Ueshiba used. It's like being a painter of art.... the same core skills of paint, using a brush, etc., are used by two people, but one person may be a realistic portrait-painter and the other person may be a modernist. Two different results, even though the basic principles are the same.

Odd you should mention Dai Family Xinyi.... we were just talking on QiJin about some of the basic (core exercise) training in Dai Xinyi's "Squatting Monkey" and how it relates to some of the suburi that Ueshiba was filmed doing back in the 1930's. The point I was making in the discussion was that the Dai Xinyi's method of storing power and then striking is not functionally different from what is considered "good technique" in a number of Asian martial arts, and surprisingly Ueshiba can be seen doing the same store-and-release in his kenpo. How many current Aikidoists were taught this almost universal form of bokken-swinging that Ueshiba was using as far back as the 1930's, I wonder?

Anyway, FWIW

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 01-06-2009 at 07:29 AM.
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Old 01-06-2009, 11:21 AM   #5
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post

Odd you should mention Dai Family Xinyi.... we were just talking on QiJin about some of the basic (core exercise) training in Dai Xinyi's "Squatting Monkey" and how it relates to some of the suburi that Ueshiba was filmed doing back in the 1930's. The point I was making in the discussion was that the Dai Xinyi's method of storing power and then striking is not functionally different from what is considered "good technique" in a number of Asian martial arts, and surprisingly Ueshiba can be seen doing the same store-and-release in his kenpo. How many current Aikidoists were taught this almost universal form of bokken-swinging that Ueshiba was using as far back as the 1930's, I wonder?

Anyway, FWIW

Mike Sigman
Hey Mike,
Been following your posts but haven't had anything to add. In the above quote, are you referring to the Asahi film? If so, I'd be grateful for a time signature so I can see what suburi you are referring to. If you are referring to a different film, could you provide a link?

Many thanks,
Pat
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Old 01-06-2009, 12:55 PM   #6
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Pat Togher wrote: View Post
If so, I'd be grateful for a time signature so I can see what suburi you are referring to.
Hi Pat:

It's this one; between 7:33 and 7:50

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ

The discussion on QiJin was along slightly different lines than just the hara/dantien and more along the lines of the lower dantien. The comparison was with the last guy on this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...919&playnext=1

Best.

Mike
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Old 01-06-2009, 05:25 PM   #7
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Ueshiba can be seen doing the same store-and-release in his kenpo. How many current Aikidoists were taught this almost universal form of bokken-swinging that Ueshiba was using as far back as the 1930's, I wonder?
In Iwama type practice with Bernice Tom Sensei (that was between 93-97), we did all sorts of variations on happo undo, with various turns and shifts added -- with specific emphasis on conservation of movement from strike to strike. I spent two ship deployments, one in that period and one just after, doing those most every day. I keep training in that and teach some of it.

Several of those movements track with some of the movements O Sensei is doing in that kenpo exhibition -- he is just doing them singly and connecting them (seemingly) free form (and more variations than I ever learned, certainly), whereas we did ours one at the time and repeated them in four or eight directions. We did the thirty-one jo kata and twenty jo suburi in much the same spirit, too.

I know for a fact that Baumgartner Sensei in Santa Fe does the thirty-one jo kata in the same manner in both the solo suburi and in the awase bunkai and I just showed up there one day last year while travelling. About all the aikido I get out of town is what I can pick up while out on work. Nice folks in Santa Fe. Very accommodating, BTW.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-06-2009, 05:30 PM   #8
Mike Sigman
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Several of those movements track with some of the movements O Sensei is doing in that kenpo exhibition
So why don't you describe those movements? None of your other descriptions have ever "tracked" very well, but if you want to claim something you know is the same thing as what I'm describing, why not make the case in a better-defined way? "Track" seems so fuzzy for someone who prefers such precise terms.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:35 AM   #9
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So why don't you describe those movements? None of your other descriptions have ever "tracked" very well, but if you want to claim something you know is the same thing as what I'm describing, why not make the case in a better-defined way? "Track" seems so fuzzy for someone who prefers such precise terms.
I would, but the arc of those efforts in the past has, well, suffice it to say:

猫に小判.

猫に鰹節

I am not sure which is the correct cat but, one of those, anyway, maybe both.

大同小異

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-07-2009, 12:30 PM   #10
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

It's rather pointless to engage in a discussion on a forum where distraction and frippery dilutes the thread. If the O.P. and anyone really interested in functional discussion of the topic wants to take it to QiJin or some other forum, p.m. me.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:06 PM   #11
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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It's rather pointless to engage in a discussion on a forum where distraction and frippery dilutes the thread. If the O.P. and anyone really interested in functional discussion of the topic wants to take it to QiJin or some other forum, p.m. me.
The question was:
Quote:
How many current Aikidoists were taught this almost universal form of bokken-swinging that Ueshiba was using as far back as the 1930's, I wonder?
The answer was the bokken swinging that I saw in the video I have seen and done in training in a different order and I said who and where and in what lineage. Frippery, if you like -- it was the answer to your question. You are free to disbelieve my answer, which is fine.

The proverbs noted exist to avoid repeated mistakes. I am simply not again engaging any tired dispute over bona fides on standards of subtle movement that are neither in my training lineage, nor within my physical observation to see, or feel and repeat.

The bokken swinging in the essential forms seen, however, emphatically is, on both counts.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:34 PM   #12
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

If you wish to comment or pose a question on a subject tangental to the thread (especially when the thread involves a fairly technical discussion), why don't you open a new thread and post the relevant quote along with your questions/comments?

That's what I did.

Anyway, it's a moot point at this stage...
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:11 PM   #13
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
If you wish to comment or pose a question on a subject tangental to the thread (especially when the thread involves a fairly technical discussion), why don't you open a new thread and post the relevant quote along with your questions/comments?

That's what I did.

Anyway, it's a moot point at this stage...
It didn't seem tangential. I spoke directly at the question. Then a bit of personality intervened, which I tried to decline.

It doesn't seem moot anyhow. There still ought to be plenty to discuss.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-08-2009, 01:07 AM   #14
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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... the Hara becoming hyper conditioned for a specific skill... One of the things that got me thinking about these things apart from my own training and experiences with others is the following quote:
Quote:
YLC) The thing is every style has their own specific way of doing things and not all are compatible with each other. I have only trained in Dai style solely since I was around 20 years old, so I only know Dai style. What I do know though, that my art has our own unique body requirements, that I believe other styles do not have.

For example say you practice Dai style and Taiji, they have completely different requirements. Dai style has a small, compact and narrow frame and ever strike has a contraction, followed by a expansion, this is achieved by rolling the dan tian on a vertical axis. Taiji does not have this, so practicing Taiji will damage your Dai style and vice versa. I don't believe it is good to try and practice many arts at the same time, to me my art gives me all I need and more. ... but I don't really mind people training in a grappling style as long as they train technique over brute force. The reason I don't mind is as long as they don't train striking from other arts, otherwise they will never progress as other art's don't use dan tian like we do.
Let me speak to this from an Aikido standpoint and try to relate my understanding of the biomechanics and how the use of this area may differ depending on application. Abe's quote you give above, and the mention of the area of the hara "the size of an apple" are both speaking of the pyramidalis muscles and the related obliques. Acting bilaterally and continuously, these stabilize the forward shear created by by resisting lateral load with proper lower spine curvature. An excellent and very readable web resource to get the spinal mechanics associated with this use of the hara in sustaining conventional lateral loads is found here: http://www.spinalfitness.com/

The other structural function of the pyramidalis, specifically, is to stabilize the pubic symphysis, in lateral torque. This is a fairly immobile joint at the front of the pubis. It can be damaged by having one limb levered out from the torso while in a loaded condition, often acutely in a tackle, but is also seen in swimmers whose breaststroke causes repetitive use injury from having an strong, but asymmetrical, or uncoordinated stroke.

In martial arts where the modulation of periodic torque is a primary mechanical mode (such as aikido) then the pyramidalis acting bilaterally alternately compress and release action on the pubic symphysis to stiffen or relax as appropriate that elastic hinge, so that the continuity of compression or tension is maintained from the torso to the undercarriage, as the body accepts and delivers the torsional shears.

In Dai as it is described, the "vertical rotation of the hips" would required constant compression of the symphysis by the pyramidalis both to stabilize the forward shear from the spine in absorbing the reaction of the strike at impact as well as to ensure integrity in the mechanism in the vertical plane from becoming asymmetrical at the hinge in the pubis.

I can see that torque sensitive arts like Aikido use different aspects of this sytem.The left pyramidalis for example carries the line of action of its rightside external oblique over to the left side of the pelvis. This means that in unilateral action of the oblique (as in striking),torque naturally stabilizes the symphysis in compression, since the pyramidalis extends the action of the oblique across the gap. to pull it closed. The pyramidalis adds further to that stability, both because it extends the effective arc of the oblique's action and because of its own contraction force.

Both the external and internal obliques act as antagonists to the diaphram to compress the abdomen for exhalation, and the pyraqmidalis acts with the rectus to tauten the abdomen. Acting together they modulate the rigidity of the tube and therefore its efficiency in transmitting impulse (rigid tube versus a slack sock). , and modulating how static torque deformations of the torso are received and stored, and then delivered.

And that's what I saw in the video.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-27-2009, 07:13 PM   #15
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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[snip].... we were just talking on QiJin about some of the basic (core exercise) training in Dai Xinyi's "Squatting Monkey" and how it relates to some of the suburi that Ueshiba was filmed doing back in the 1930's. The point I was making in the discussion was that the Dai Xinyi's method of storing power and then striking is not functionally different from what is considered "good technique" in a number of Asian martial arts, and surprisingly Ueshiba can be seen doing the same store-and-release in his kenpo. [snip]
Mike Sigman
http://www.56.com/u60/v_NDA3NjA0MTc.html

Mike--

With respect to use of the hara/dantien and store/release, do you see similarity between the Dai Xinyi and Ueshiba on the one hand (per your remarks above) and the Wu/Hao taijiquan demonstration in the video clip above, specifically between 0:58 and 1:25?

Thanks for your feedback.
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Old 01-27-2009, 07:23 PM   #16
Mike Sigman
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
http://www.56.com/u60/v_NDA3NjA0MTc.htmlWith respect to use of the hara/dantien and store/release, do you see similarity between the Dai Xinyi and Ueshiba on the one hand (per your remarks above) and the Wu/Hao taijiquan demonstration in the video clip above, specifically between 0:58 and 1:25?
Yes, it's the same thing, same principles. The point is in the old saying that "there is only one jin". What you're seeing is a more sophisticated development of the same core techniques. If you examine closely what is done... well, let's say that Ueshiba or the Dai Family Xinyi guy saw the tape of the Wu-Hao guy's performance: they'd understand and maybe say "oh... I didn't know I could have kept developing in this direction and gotten those results". Maybe the Dai Xinyi guy would already know it, though... hard to say. I.e., it's all the same thing.

Best.

Mike
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Old 01-27-2009, 07:36 PM   #17
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

Same thing, BTW, with this 94-year-old guy. There is no substantive difference between this type of power and what Ueshiba called "the secret of Aikdio":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-27-2009, 07:37 PM   #18
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

Thanks Mike. It seemed to be along the same lines, but I just wanted to check that I was seeing some of what you were discussing.

I appreciate the quick response.
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Old 01-28-2009, 12:37 AM   #19
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
http://www.56.com/u60/v_NDA3NjA0MTc.html

Mike--

With respect to use of the hara/dantien and store/release, do you see similarity between the Dai Xinyi and Ueshiba on the one hand (per your remarks above) and the Wu/Hao taijiquan demonstration in the video clip above, specifically between 0:58 and 1:25?
Dunno 'bout xinyi - but in aikido terms it's funetori, no question, full cycle, complete with the initial rock back and the asagao expression in the arms and hands -- just really tight and sharp. Nice.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-30-2009, 01:17 PM   #20
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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the asagao expression in the arms and hands
Erick,

What does "asagao" translate into English as?

Thanks for your help.
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Old 01-30-2009, 05:28 PM   #21
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Erick,

What does "asagao" translate into English as?

Thanks for your help.
"Morning Glory" as in the flower. In DR parlance, it refers to a hand shape where the two hands touch along the "little finger" line of the hand.

Kondo Sensei talks about this in an interview on Aikido Journal and hints that it is Gokui. It took him years to understand the "true meaning" of Asagao.
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Old 01-30-2009, 08:58 PM   #22
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

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Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
"Morning Glory" as in the flower. In DR parlance, it refers to a hand shape where the two hands touch along the "little finger" line of the hand.

Kondo Sensei talks about this in an interview on Aikido Journal and hints that it is Gokui. It took him years to understand the "true meaning" of Asagao.
No doubt, I do not have the whole of the "true meaning." DTR may hold the koryu gokui but they don't own the nature they use to reveal it. I have what nature and experience reveal -- the hand position is not all it is. It is the expression of a whole manner of movement. Look at the video of the flower blossoming. http://www.naturefootage.com/video_clips/BF41_159

Like the flower, the hands begin to spread from the center, leading the arms spiraling curving and opening outward and spread the chest and belly open -- so that the fore-aft dimension shrinks while the lateral dimension extends. Reverse it and the arms roll inward into a spiral extension forward while their lateral dimension becomes smaller.

Look carefully at the blossom -- it swells at the base as with a intaking breath, and as it unfurls and expands the base shrinks again as with a released breath. Kokyu drives the movement from the hara -- asagao is the revealed shape of the breath spiral.

Windings, I believe some use to describe what the Chinese arts address in the nature of chan-si jin. Shear is the operative mechanical principle, but it does not work unless it propagates from the center and back again in the nature of breath.

One secret is that no change in length occurs, and no leverage is directly employed to expand or retract the body -- as the arm (and by extension the rest of the body) retracts in one dimension, it simultaneously extends in the other, (in-yo ho) 90 degrees out of phase with any "resistance" experienced and with relatively little energy -- this is asagao as I mean it. The proverbial "no inch" punch is simply completing the last bit of this extension in closing -- as THIS is using both opening and closing in succession -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z6jg...eature=related(opening first, then closing at 5:30-6:00) and (closing first, then opening at 6:15-6:30) As Tissier Shihan empasizes it is not merely about the arm but about how you move the body, which is harder to describe, except to say that is is the same -- just harder to visualize

Emphasis on tegatana in Aikido carries this message in a related form, and in dynamic terms in many of the aiki-taiso. Both parts are found in sanchin no kata, and it is also in o chiburi, and other sword movement - opening asagaois in suriage, for example.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-22-2009, 11:25 PM   #23
Dai Zhi Qiang
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Let me speak to this from an Aikido standpoint and try to relate my understanding of the biomechanics and how the use of this area may differ depending on application. Abe's quote you give above, and the mention of the area of the hara "the size of an apple" are both speaking of the pyramidalis muscles and the related obliques. Acting bilaterally and continuously, these stabilize the forward shear created by by resisting lateral load with proper lower spine curvature. An excellent and very readable web resource to get the spinal mechanics associated with this use of the hara in sustaining conventional lateral loads is found here: http://www.spinalfitness.com/

The other structural function of the pyramidalis, specifically, is to stabilize the pubic symphysis, in lateral torque. This is a fairly immobile joint at the front of the pubis. It can be damaged by having one limb levered out from the torso while in a loaded condition, often acutely in a tackle, but is also seen in swimmers whose breaststroke causes repetitive use injury from having an strong, but asymmetrical, or uncoordinated stroke.

In martial arts where the modulation of periodic torque is a primary mechanical mode (such as aikido) then the pyramidalis acting bilaterally alternately compress and release action on the pubic symphysis to stiffen or relax as appropriate that elastic hinge, so that the continuity of compression or tension is maintained from the torso to the undercarriage, as the body accepts and delivers the torsional shears.

In Dai as it is described, the "vertical rotation of the hips" would required constant compression of the symphysis by the pyramidalis both to stabilize the forward shear from the spine in absorbing the reaction of the strike at impact as well as to ensure integrity in the mechanism in the vertical plane from becoming asymmetrical at the hinge in the pubis.

I can see that torque sensitive arts like Aikido use different aspects of this sytem.The left pyramidalis for example carries the line of action of its rightside external oblique over to the left side of the pelvis. This means that in unilateral action of the oblique (as in striking),torque naturally stabilizes the symphysis in compression, since the pyramidalis extends the action of the oblique across the gap. to pull it closed. The pyramidalis adds further to that stability, both because it extends the effective arc of the oblique's action and because of its own contraction force.

Both the external and internal obliques act as antagonists to the diaphram to compress the abdomen for exhalation, and the pyraqmidalis acts with the rectus to tauten the abdomen. Acting together they modulate the rigidity of the tube and therefore its efficiency in transmitting impulse (rigid tube versus a slack sock). , and modulating how static torque deformations of the torso are received and stored, and then delivered.

And that's what I saw in the video.
Thanks for putting in a solid effort to explain things in a more scientific manner. I myself have no professional anatomy training, so I only go by my own training experience and from watching others in my style (Dai Xin Yi Quan).

In my style we focus on creating a cavity underneath the sternum, which is achieved by not sucking it in, but by the consequence of certain parts of the body being aligned. Shoulders and elbows squeezed, the chest contracted and the back arched.

There is no trying to roll anything until the area (dan tian) has built up physically, so for noobs, you are told to sit there and cultivate structure, first by standing and then by contracting and expanding, in squatting monkey posture.

This posture, though looking simple is very complicated with a lot of things happening inside and outside the body. Not learning is properly can lead to hypertension/ high blood pressure and unnecessary pressure on the lungs and heart and also the spine, due to the vertical movement of the backbone.

Rolling from the hips maybe is not the most accurate expression of what is happening as when you meet someone who is high level, there is little movement from the kua, but the area (which is as large as a rugby ball on my teacher) will rotate independently of anything else going on externally.

Dan tian in our style is the engine which drives all of the moves, without this in our system we are severely handicapped.
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Old 06-24-2009, 08:40 AM   #24
jss
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

Quote:
Jon Dyer wrote: View Post
There is no trying to roll anything until the area (dan tian) has built up physically, so for noobs, you are told to sit there and cultivate structure, first by standing and then by contracting and expanding, in squatting monkey posture.
Then would you agree with the following:
* Standing develops a structure that ties the body together.
* Contracting and expanding that structure develops the dan tian, since the dan tian is the center of that structure.
* Once the dan tian has been sufficiently developed, you can use the dan tian to actively control that structure.
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Old 06-25-2009, 10:09 PM   #25
Dai Zhi Qiang
Location: Wellington
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Re: Uses of the Hara within different traditions

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Then would you agree with the following:
* Standing develops a structure that ties the body together.
* Contracting and expanding that structure develops the dan tian, since the dan tian is the center of that structure.
* Once the dan tian has been sufficiently developed, you can use the dan tian to actively control that structure.
Spot on

DZQ
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