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Old 01-08-2009, 03:28 PM   #101
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Thanks Craig, missed your posting here! Welcome Home!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-08-2009, 03:41 PM   #102
sorokod
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Boxing is perhaps the closest to "fighting." There is competition. A boxing match is WIN-LOSE.
Not sure what metric you are thinking about when you say "closest" and as Kevin remarked there are all sorts of "fighting", putting this aside,
there is competition and then there is life: Category:Murdered Boxers

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Old 01-08-2009, 03:49 PM   #103
Keith Larman
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I'm not being a cheerleader for aikido, and I'm not saying it's a great short-term self-defense solution -- rather the opposite, if you read what I wrote. I'm saying that I think the "aikido ain't for you" judgment is premature.
Mary, I don't think you were being a cheerleader and I'm sorry if you took it that way, it really wasn't my intent although I can see how it can be read that way. Heck, if the guy was talking to me face to face we'd have a conversation and many of the things said, including what you so well wrote earlier would be topics I'd try to touch on. But with his responses to to those posts here I wouldn't "write him off" so much as suggest he consider aikido and give it a try. I would also tell him that it takes a lot longer to get to the point where you can be martially "effective" in the sense he's talking about.

And if he insisted on discussion things like taking on boxers within a month of training the conversation would most certainly shift to asking what he really wanted to learn. Aikido won't get anyone ready for the "Octogon of Death Cage match" in a month. Or a year. Or maybe ever. Different mindset and operating principles. I sincerely try to understand where someone is coming from and I try to point them to the art that *will* in fact best suit their needs and mindset even if it isn't Aikido. I've been around enough to have some familiarity with a handful of them. No, of course I wouldn't write him off -- far from it. But I think Don hit it on the head in his last post -- if his goals are purely combative in a short amount of time there are much shorter paths one could take. I think there are great benefits to the path we're all on, but that ain't for everyone and while I'd try to explain the differences, well, there's only so much you can do.

So I would hope honest and expansive answers like he's gotten here would give him some things to think about and hopefully expand his perspective. But frankly I think arts like Krav Maga, BJJ, Muay Thai, or even Judo would be more to his liking given what I'm reading in his posts. It's not that I'm discounting Aikido's worthiness -- it is just an honest attempt to point the guy in the direction that might best suit his needs at this time without judgement. I can relate. It's been a long, winding road for me as well.

And fwiw I have actually sparred (gently, thank you) with someone who boxes a couple times. I found that irimi as quickly as possible was about my only option once he got confortable with my gameplan. Once inside in the clinch I had a lot more options. His flailing arms trying to hit gave me some options, but they were fleeting and I'm sure if videotaped no one would say it was pretty. The good striker didn't have a ground game. So that's where we went. Get inside his range and dump him. I had a few times where I was able to essentially overpower him and then get into things like hijigatame, but it was probably more JJ-like than aiki-like up to that point. One time I surprised him and was able to slide right past him into a kataotoshi from behind. That was fun. But it wasn't easy and I took a few shots myself in the practice. One was a shot to the ribs that took a *long* time to stop aching. I'm sure he pulled that a lot too so I'm thankful I still have intact ribs. Boxers can get that thing in there quickly and even if you catch it the arm is like a bar of steel. If you try to "force" a technique you are in deep trouble (which is true no matter who you're facing). I found it to be great practice. But then again, I don't mind getting hit really hard to learn lessons. I'm a bit of an adrenalin junkie when it comes to some of this stuff...

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Old 01-08-2009, 03:53 PM   #104
Keith Larman
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Please tell me you are bringing some of your wares with you?!?

I may not have the money to buy anything, but I've heard so much about your work I could never resist a peek!

Hope to make that myself...we'll see!
Best,
Ron
Yeah, there's someone up there that I promised to visit if I make it up and bring along some things for him to see. It'll all depend on how much hassle I want to go through with carrying expensive swords through TSA. They get odd looks on their faces when i try to explain what's in the big locked case...

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Old 01-09-2009, 07:19 AM   #105
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Slighty on topic ...

Aiki-boxing 1
Aiki-boxing 2
Aiki-boxing 3

And the 15 pgs thread.

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Old 01-09-2009, 01:59 PM   #106
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Thanks Demetrio for those videos.

Interesting. Looks like they had fun and definitely they are figuring things out. As a fine point of detail I'd offer this.

They should work at improving there clinch. You can tell that they don't really understand it and they are not comfortable working from the inside. A little clinch work and they would be taking alot less shots.

They also move to the inside, then open up creating space to do an "aikido" technique. Unnecessary and that is why they are taking alot of shots. Throw a knife in there and it would not be pretty.

Again, I think this is good, and if they learned how to be more comfortable on the inside and upclose then they would be good to go. A basic rule of thumb I use is once I take space away, I am not giving it back.

hard to find a real good example, but watch this fight....once these guys clinch up, they stay pretty tight until there is a takedown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDf0N...eature=related

It minimizes risk of getting hit.

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Old 01-09-2009, 06:10 PM   #107
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Aikido this ...blah ..blah... boxing that blah.. blah... Bjj this blah blah... Judo this..blah blah.

ITS THE ARTIST NOT THE ART. All arts have there upside and downside, but all are effective in their own way. Learn one well (which by the way will likely require more than a few months!!!)
Then if you want to expand to another you can still take what you learned with you. Kind of a beautiful thing isn't it !!
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Old 01-09-2009, 10:15 PM   #108
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Teaching/training methods are important too.

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Old 01-09-2009, 10:38 PM   #109
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Gregg Block wrote: View Post
Aikido this ...blah ..blah... boxing that blah.. blah... Bjj this blah blah... Judo this..blah blah.

ITS THE ARTIST NOT THE ART. All arts have there upside and downside, but all are effective in their own way. Learn one well (which by the way will likely require more than a few months!!!)
Then if you want to expand to another you can still take what you learned with you. Kind of a beautiful thing isn't it !!
I understand your point, and yes you have to have heart and desire to get any skill in martial arts, but the training method is the MOST important part of learning any skill. If it was the artist then it would take no time at all and training would really be pointless.

Otherwise you are claiming that if we took two identically clones, trained them different ways as follows:

One using a modern boxing training routine of bag work, shadow boxing, pad work, sparing and conditioning

And Two trained him by just walking him though the techniques of boxing similar to some kind of boxing kata.

That we would get the exact same fighter. I think logic and scientific evidence shows us this is not the case. One only needs look at professional athletes for proof. How many athletes change coaches and suddenly jump in performance.

Simply put, better ways of training make better fighters.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 01-10-2009, 08:34 AM   #110
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

This issue of aikidoka just falling apart in sparring situations, leading to questions of aikido's intended context and its training methods, just keeps coming up. This must be the thousandth thread on the subject.

I'm not saying it's overdone. Actually, the opposite. It's the elephant in the room and it should remain so for a while to come. Far more important than obscure digressions about varieties of sankyo and stories about so-and-so Shihan defeating three tigers with shards of glass taped to their collars long ago.
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Old 01-10-2009, 08:58 AM   #111
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Another title for this thread could be I got owned by my self.
Mary
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Old 01-10-2009, 09:08 AM   #112
gregg block
 
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I understand your point, and yes you have to have heart and desire to get any skill in martial arts, but the training method is the MOST important part of learning any skill. If it was the artist then it would take no time at all and training would really be pointless.

Otherwise you are claiming that if we took two identically clones, trained them different ways as follows:

One using a modern boxing training routine of bag work, shadow boxing, pad work, sparing and conditioning

And Two trained him by just walking him though the techniques of boxing similar to some kind of boxing kata.

That we would get the exact same fighter. I think logic and scientific evidence shows us this is not the case. One only needs look at professional athletes for proof. How many athletes change coaches and suddenly jump in performance.

Simply put, better ways of training make better fighters.
I think we are on the same page, you may have misunderstood my post.
I say it is the artist not the art in the sense that it is related to how the artist trains in his/her given art that determines his/her skill. Hence my "by the way" statement about not being able to get there in a month or two . It is the artist his/her self that determines what they get out of the art.
The art is the "brush" the artist is the "painter". I do concede that if your teacher can only paint stick figures than the artist will likely not be able to paint master pieces. In that case it is within the artist's control to recognize this and find someone else who knows how to paint to study under.
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Old 01-10-2009, 09:41 AM   #113
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Another title for this thread could be I got owned by my self.
Mary
To paraphrase the Simpsons:

Indeed, in a sense, he was owned by his own self.

In another, more accurate sense, he was owned by the guy punching him in the face.
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Old 01-10-2009, 09:56 AM   #114
Aikibu
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
This issue of aikidoka just falling apart in sparring situations, leading to questions of aikido's intended context and its training methods, just keeps coming up. This must be the thousandth thread on the subject.

I'm not saying it's overdone. Actually, the opposite. It's the elephant in the room and it should remain so for a while to come.
Interesting Grand Generalization that I 've heard a hundred times. It's not over done noooooooo... but indeed it's the boring Uncle at the Holiday meal who forgets your name and still thinks you're in grade school 20 years ago.

The "issues" of "intended context" (Now there's a loaded phrase) and "training methods" are addressed everyday in the Dojo. To think that Aikido is static and unchanging is silly at best.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 01-10-2009 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 01-10-2009, 09:57 AM   #115
Ketsan
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Another title for this thread could be I got owned by my self.
Mary
The closest you could get to "I got pwned by myself" is "I allowed my self to get pwned because I did not know how to apply what I'd learned"
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Old 01-10-2009, 10:01 AM   #116
Ketsan
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
To think that Aikido is static and unchanging is silly at best.

William Hazen
To say that all Aikidoka are practicing the same art is stretching it a bit too.
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Old 01-10-2009, 11:03 AM   #117
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

I've been fortunate to train with some fabulous aikidoists over the last five years. The constant, amidst the various waza, which I have observed is the creation of a dynamic which absolutely denies uke ( maybe the boxer? in this case ) an effective opening.

Certainly an opening is granted but it is only granted as a way to direct uke to a resolution which does not include that any effective strike, jab, kick, what have you, be made.

It's a tough nut to crack...figuring out the whole aikido thing. I think the "figuring" works best for me when I'm not doing it. The figuring, that is.

And maybe in retrospect are most of my lessons or understandings of the art achieved. While training...empty mind, muscle memory, awareness of whole body connection. That's tough enough but to try to analyze and figure out the whole deal at the same time...not something I can do.

One step at a time. Like the father character in the great film Contact said to his daughter played by Jodie Foster, small steps, small steps.

The cool thing about small steps is that after awhile one realizes they have gone down the road a piece. Yep. Can even look back over the shoulder and see where one was back yonder beyond the curve, near the copse of trees obscured in the mist of a light fog rising and soon to be burnt off under the bright sun of the path ahead.

You know...how the heck do you describe aikido, or any art form, without using an art form to do it? I think it's difficult. That's why art exists. To describe the indescribable.

I have a friend who is a painter. She does abstract stuff. Asking her to describe one of her paintings is like asking Ginsberg to describe Howl, or McClure to decribe Beginning with a line by DiPrima.

The description of the art is the art.

Last edited by Dan O'Day : 01-10-2009 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 01-10-2009, 12:08 PM   #118
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Gregg Block wrote: View Post
I think we are on the same page, you may have misunderstood my post.
I say it is the artist not the art in the sense that it is related to how the artist trains in his/her given art that determines his/her skill. Hence my "by the way" statement about not being able to get there in a month or two . It is the artist his/her self that determines what they get out of the art.
The art is the "brush" the artist is the "painter". I do concede that if your teacher can only paint stick figures than the artist will likely not be able to paint master pieces. In that case it is within the artist's control to recognize this and find someone else who knows how to paint to study under.
But how does one know if their teacher can only paint stick figures? I was in TKD for most of my childhood and teenage years. I never once saw my instructor use TKD. He only demonstrated it against compliant partners. This is the case in many martial arts. And these arts tell the student that you never need to see it in action to know it works. They tell the student that the founders and their students were masters and won all sorts of conflicts and thus, by proxy, their teacher is also a bad ass.

This is why aliveness is so important in training. Rather then trying to guess if what you are learning is real you can gauge if what you are learning works or not. And if your teacher is good, he will jump right in and do it with you and not be afraid of failing in front of his students.

Doh! I said I wasn't going to go on about aliveness in this thread...sorry!

Back to the artists and not the art comment. I think the artist only matters in two situations.
1) They have to have the desire to do the training method. - If you are training, but don't have the desire to show up multiple times a week and don't do every drill, don't have the desire to increase your level of physical fitness, then simply put you will NEVER be good at anything physical.
2) On the highest levels of performance. - There are people who are built to succeed in athletic performance. Given the same amount of training they will simply be better then the rest of us. We call these people professional athletes. I don't think this matters in this debate as 95% of us are not and will never be pros. Most of our instructors are not and will never be pros.

Up to a very high level of skill you are only limited by your desire to show up and training and the quality of your training method. Most people who stay in martial arts more then a year or two have the heart to show up and train, but their training method frankly sucks.

I think I would say its 65% the desire to show up and train, 40% the training method, and 5% the persons natural ability. Then once you get above that 'normal' level and into the professional level (like a anderson silva type person) it switches to 75% mental ability and desire of the person, 20% training methods, and 5% physical ability of the person.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 01-10-2009, 02:49 PM   #119
gregg block
 
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
But how does one know if their teacher can only paint stick figures? I was in TKD for most of my childhood and teenage years. I never once saw my instructor use TKD. He only demonstrated it against compliant partners. This is the case in many martial arts. And these arts tell the student that you never need to see it in action to know it works. They tell the student that the founders and their students were masters and won all sorts of conflicts and thus, by proxy, their teacher is also a bad ass.

This is why aliveness is so important in training. Rather then trying to guess if what you are learning is real you can gauge if what you are learning works or not. And if your teacher is good, he will jump right in and do it with you and not be afraid of failing in front of his students.

Doh! I said I wasn't going to go on about aliveness in this thread...sorry!

Back to the artists and not the art comment. I think the artist only matters in two situations.
1) They have to have the desire to do the training method. - If you are training, but don't have the desire to show up multiple times a week and don't do every drill, don't have the desire to increase your level of physical fitness, then simply put you will NEVER be good at anything physical.
2) On the highest levels of performance. - There are people who are built to succeed in athletic performance. Given the same amount of training they will simply be better then the rest of us. We call these people professional athletes. I don't think this matters in this debate as 95% of us are not and will never be pros. Most of our instructors are not and will never be pros.

Up to a very high level of skill you are only limited by your desire to show up and training and the quality of your training method. Most people who stay in martial arts more then a year or two have the heart to show up and train, but their training method frankly sucks.

I think I would say its 65% the desire to show up and train, 40% the training method, and 5% the persons natural ability. Then once you get above that 'normal' level and into the professional level (like a anderson silva type person) it switches to 75% mental ability and desire of the person, 20% training methods, and 5% physical ability of the person.
A teacher that sucks may be able to lead new students a stray for a while, but not forever. Eventually the true student of the martial arts will test thier training in some way and either it will pan out or it will crash and burn. If it crashes and burns then a true student of the martial arts will seek knowledge elsewhere. The alternative is to live in denial. Some may choose to live in this capacity, but that is their choice.

It really doesnt take a genius to discover if what one has been taught is not effective. It does however require courage to admit it, get past it and more on.
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Old 01-10-2009, 05:25 PM   #120
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Gregg Block wrote: View Post
A teacher that sucks may be able to lead new students a stray for a while, but not forever. Eventually the true student of the martial arts will test thier training in some way and either it will pan out or it will crash and burn. If it crashes and burns then a true student of the martial arts will seek knowledge elsewhere. The alternative is to live in denial. Some may choose to live in this capacity, but that is their choice.

It really doesnt take a genius to discover if what one has been taught is not effective. It does however require courage to admit it, get past it and more on.
Most people who do not have a training method that involves sparing will just convince themselves they are the problem and not the training. Their teachers will reinforce this by giving some sudo-babble about how they don't understand the true teachings, or their ki is not yet developed, or that they haven't trained long enough and that in 10 more years they will be ready. If empirical testing was the norm you wouldn't see effective combat skills being the minority in martial arts. Instead they would be the rule.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 01-10-2009, 06:34 PM   #121
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
This issue of aikidoka just falling apart in sparring situations, leading to questions of aikido's intended context and its training methods, just keeps coming up. This must be the thousandth thread on the subject.

I'm not saying it's overdone. Actually, the opposite. It's the elephant in the room and it should remain so for a while to come. Far more important than obscure digressions about varieties of sankyo and stories about so-and-so Shihan defeating three tigers with shards of glass taped to their collars long ago.
Meh. I've done sparring, enough that I think I understand its value. I'm glad I've had that training and would welcome more of it. But sparring ain't the be-all and end-all either.

I'll tell you what's done to death -- the endless, interminable, going-absolutely-nowhere, relentlessly circular "discussion" about what's a complete martial art. Such a thing exists only in marketing copy and the overheated imaginations that it inspires. You know the old saying about many paths up the mountain? Well, there ya go. In the context of martial arts, it simply means that you can't learn it all at once. I've studied in a style and school where we did a lot of hard-contact sparring -- that taught me some things, but other things were missing. I'm glad I had the experience, I wouldn't mind doing more of it, but you can't do it all. At the opposite end of the spectrum, I trained in shindo muso ryu jodo, which is nearly as geeky as it gets (kyudo has it beat by a mile, but kyudo has everything beat by a mile). There was a ton of stuff I learned studying jodo that I just didn't get in sparring -- and yet there was a connection. They were very different paths up the same mountain.

I don't recommend being a martial arts dilettante. I don't think it's the way to go. I've trained in four different styles as a result of circumstance rather than choice. I value what the diversity of experience has given me, but...it was a happy accident, you know? I got lucky. I don't think you can plan for that kind of serendipitous outcome.
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Old 01-10-2009, 09:35 PM   #122
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Keith Miklas wrote: View Post
A friend of mine boxed for the army. I've been studying Aikido for about a month and so I asked him to friendly-spar for a couple of minutes to show him what I'd learned.

....Basically, I got owned. I never came close to blending with his jabs. I finally had to tell him to slow his attacks down, so that I could demonstrate Ikkyo and Sankyo.

...In sum, I felt helpless and defenseless against his skills.
With only a month's worth of training you do not know ikkyo and sankyo well enough. What you should have been practicing with only a month's practice is your stance and maintaining distance from your opponent.
David
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Old 01-11-2009, 01:19 AM   #123
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Most people who do not have a training method that involves sparing will just convince themselves they are the problem and not the training. Their teachers will reinforce this by giving some sudo-babble about how they don't understand the true teachings, or their ki is not yet developed, or that they haven't trained long enough and that in 10 more years they will be ready. If empirical testing was the norm you wouldn't see effective combat skills being the minority in martial arts. Instead they would be the rule.
That seems to be the trend. You say, "Okay, you claim that aikido is a sophisticated and effective martial art, but we're not seeing any demonstrations of this." And then they say, "Ah, well, the great masters would never stoop to 'proving' their skills, but you know, I heard that once, So-and-So Shihan was going down a back alley, and ... " Or, "I was doing a compliant exercise with someone, and I really FELT his power! I bet if it were for real, I'd have been down for the count just as fast."

The fallacy here is that enough implication, "gut feeling", and other circumstantial evidence adds up to substantive evidence. It doesn't. I'm not saying an art has to be useful to UFC fighters. But solid martial arts generally can say, "in situation X or live exercise Y, someone with some experience in this art is going to be measurably better than someone without, ceteris paribus."

I'm not an "aikido hater". I love aikido. But something is really wrong with the (as it were) state of the art. Unfortunately, whenever people point this out, they're often responded to with vague Yoda-ish platitudes and remarks that "Well, it takes 15 years, but then it really works!" or "Well, I could show you me doing what you're trying to do, but ... that would distract from my quest for enlightenment."

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
With only a month's worth of training you do not know ikkyo and sankyo well enough. What you should have been practicing with only a month's practice is your stance and maintaining distance from your opponent.
David
Exhibit A.

People who are telling the OP that "it's just a matter of distance" or "you need to do X Y Z" should show themselves doing just that in a live setting. Otherwise, they need to say either, "I have no clue about this" or "Aikido is as far as I can tell no good for this." I'm not making any claims to be badass myself. I'm right where the OP is. Except they're ahead of me, because I've been doing aikido for 4-5 years, while they've been doing it for one month, and we're both on square one.

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 01-11-2009 at 01:27 AM.
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Old 01-11-2009, 07:10 AM   #124
Enrique Antonio Reyes
Dojo: Yuugou Aikido Kaisho
Location: Manila
Join Date: May 2008
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Thumbs up Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
That is very good feeling. Now you understand deeply, that O sensei didn't create aikido for self defence.
Right on the button

Just don't spar and not fight...you're not gonna have problems when you do that.
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Old 01-11-2009, 07:26 AM   #125
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Enrique Antonio Reyes wrote: View Post
Right on the button

Just don't spar and not fight...you're not gonna have problems when you do that.
A logically-consistent reply, but a fairly radical one.
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