Got pwned by boxer =-(

Don wrote:

I think of my aikido training as a finishing school. It has principles that seem to work great when I already outclass my opponent or partner. I could beat them without aikido already, but using aikido adds a level of simplicity to it. However, I don't think any of the aikido that I've learned (the very small amount I have ) would ever work without the direct fighting skill I've developed outside aikido in combat sport

I agree Don. BJJ and Judo are providing a good martial frame, and my aikido is beginning to give me an edge somewhat in some cases.

Don Magee wrote: I think of my aikido training as a finishing school. It has principles that seem to work great when I already outclass my opponent or partner. I could beat them without aikido already, but using aikido adds a level of simplicity to it. However, I don't think any of the aikido that I've learned (the very small amount I have ) would ever work without the direct fighting skill I've developed outside aikido in combat sports.

I agree with Kevin Don this is a very good point and something I was trying to say (just not as good as you at saying it ). Most seasoned Martial Artists who come to Aikido are looking for that "something extra" which for me was learning "how not to fight." In that light describing it as a 'finishing school" makes perfect sense. I really think it's important for teachers to describe what Aikido is and what it is not (forums like Aikiweb sure help allot in this regard)

I have always been taught that Aikido is something "extra" and most of the Senior Yudansha I have had the blessing to meet feel that way too. I just have to be careful not to let that go to my head. LOL

William Hazen

Previous to this post, i thought that the purpose of any martial art was to learn how to fight. I see now that all martial arts are not created equal, and their objectives vary greatly; learning how to fight doesn't appear to make the short list of Aikido goals.

Boxing is perhaps the closest to "fighting." There is competition. A boxing match is WIN-LOSE. The goal is to knock the other person out with gloved fist. It thus makes sense for a boxer to focus their time on punching. On the other end of the spectrum, we have Aikido: no competition, no winners, and no losers. The uke and nage work together to achieve a common goal. The conflict in Aikido is a harmonious pathway to other ends.

In sum, both Aikido and boxing are "martial arts;" however, boxing is more "martial," and Aikido is more "art."

I think your problem originates in the fact that you are defensive. Any time you wiat for an attack, you are a step behind...unless you control distance. (Think about that for a long time) At one month of training you cannot possibly attempt to apply action versus reaction...much less understand it. And you absolutely have no idea how to control distance. Just train.

Regards,
Shane

Keith Miklas wrote: Previous to this post, i thought that the purpose of any martial art was to learn how to fight. I see now that all martial arts are not created equal, and their objectives vary greatly; learning how to fight doesn't appear to make the short list of Aikido goals. Boxing is perhaps the closest to "fighting." There is competition. A boxing match is WIN-LOSE. The goal is to knock the other person out with gloved fist. It thus makes sense for a boxer to focus their time on punching. On the other end of the spectrum, we have Aikido: no competition, no winners, and no losers. The uke and nage work together to achieve a common goal. The conflict in Aikido is a harmonious pathway to other ends. In sum, both Aikido and boxing are "martial arts;" however, boxing is more "martial," and Aikido is more "art."

Didn't you say your original intention was to learn self-defense ?

that's not the same as learning "to fight".

from this post, I think after all this discussion you still don't have a clue. Most of what you just said makes no sense whatsoever.

Keith Miklas wrote: Previous to this post, i thought that the purpose of any martial art was to learn how to fight. I see now that all martial arts are not created equal, and their objectives vary greatly; learning how to fight doesn't appear to make the short list of Aikido goals. Boxing is perhaps the closest to "fighting." There is competition. A boxing match is WIN-LOSE. The goal is to knock the other person out with gloved fist. It thus makes sense for a boxer to focus their time on punching. On the other end of the spectrum, we have Aikido: no competition, no winners, and no losers. The uke and nage work together to achieve a common goal. The conflict in Aikido is a harmonious pathway to other ends. In sum, both Aikido and boxing are "martial arts;" however, boxing is more "martial," and Aikido is more "art."

Uhhh. Depends where you train. There are some dojo that are very big on co-operation and aesthetic concerns and then there are dojo that just teach how to beat people up and there are dojo that sit somewhere in between.

If someone is just looking for quick unarmed self defense. I'd recommend any sport in the short term. Like if you were looking for effective unarmed self defense in say a year. Any judo, boxing, mauy thai, bjj, MMA, etc type place is going to build effective fighting skill in no time at all. If you are looking for weapon self defense, I recommend finding a good firearms instructor and getting a permit and pistol.

Any goals beyond that, I recommend picking the training to meet those goals.

Don Magee wrote: If someone is just looking for quick unarmed self defense. I'd recommend any sport in the short term. Like if you were looking for effective unarmed self defense in say a year. Any judo, boxing, mauy thai, bjj, MMA, etc type place is going to build effective fighting skill in no time at all. If you are looking for weapon self defense, I recommend finding a good firearms instructor and getting a permit and pistol. Any goals beyond that, I recommend picking the training to meet those goals.

Yeah, what Don said.

I've had people ask me about training with us because they were interested in becoming incredible fighting machines. I usually smile and suggest pretty much what Don said up above. I'll add in Krav Maga because I've had some experiences working with those guys as well and they can be really quite interesting.

My second comment is that I think others have a very good point in this thread as well. The notion of "finishing school". I came into aikido after spending time in a variety of other things. My goals once I arrived in Aikido I realize now in retrospect had changed. With some age and experience I wasn't so interested in tearing someone's arm off and beating them to death with it. Oddly enough along the lines of what Don already posted it is in a sense easy enough to learn "self-defense" in a rather short amount of time (BJJ, Krav Maga, etc.). What I realized is that I already had some of those skills but what I was interested in was a different mindset, a different approach, and frankly I was tired of being so bruised and injured (still do have a laundry list of injuries but they're not nearly as bad as before ). I want to train until I'm an old geezer!

So ironically I find this very challenge of Aikido that the OP ran into to be the biggest draw for me. The thing that finally made me stay was that it was so bloody difficult to do well. The very fact that it would take years, decades, or even more than my lifetime to master. Interesting.

Finally to the original poster... There is also the mistake of lumping everything under a single definition. It doesn't work that way especially with Aikido. To be blunt I know sensei that say all the right things and are very soft, flowing, gentle, and probably would have difficulties in a real confrontation. And one sensei of mine is extremely soft, flowing but has spent a career working with troubled young adults and has use that soft aikido many times to successfully defend himself against larger, younger attackers. The difference in effectiveness is a complicated mix of your external training (the particular training you chose) and your mental state (something a lot harder to fix). And I know highly trained LEO and Military guys who have fallen apart under stress. Deer in the headlights after finding out what a stressful situation and a committed "real" attacker will do to that training. But I also know a couple people with very little or no training at all who rose to the occasion under horrible situations and did amazing things. When there are a lot of variables it becomes questionable at best to make sweeping generalizations.

This ain't magic. It ain't the movies. And it certainly isn't a simple question.

But given the original posters comments and subsequent posts I'd probably give the answer I gave the guy I originally talked about. Clearly you'd be best off training in something like BJJ, Krav Maga, etc. because you simply aren't getting what some very experienced people with varied backgrounds have been telling you and you certainly aren't going to "get" aikido right now. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Craig Hocker wrote: from this post, I think after all this discussion you still don't have a clue. Most of what you just said makes no sense whatsoever.

Well then, can you put Aikido in context for me? What is it? How is it beneficial? Why do you train? What about Aikido appeals to you?

Clearly you'd be best off training in something like BJJ, Krav Maga, etc. because you simply aren't getting what some very experienced people with varied backgrounds have been telling you and you certainly aren't going to "get" aikido right now. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Sorry, thought that needed to be repeated. Nice post Keith. One day I hope to enjoy keiko with you.
Best,
Ron

Keith Miklas wrote: Well then, can you put Aikido in context for me? What is it? How is it beneficial? Why do you train? What about Aikido appeals to you?

Why do you look to others for *your* context? Read the threads here, spend some time on the aikido journal web site reading articles, hit the library. Put it in your own context, and make a good decision for you.

Best,
Ron

Keith Miklas wrote: In sum, both Aikido and boxing are "martial arts;" however, boxing is more "martial," and Aikido is more "art."

"The Knowledge that we study of another time and place must serve this time and place. There is the martial and there is the art. As Wild Dog's daughter Keelin once said to me "Art is the repository of the human wisdom which cannot be expressed in words." Both the martial and the art are necessary, just as the yin and the yang are necessary to the Tao. The further one can go into each simultaneously, the greater the dichotomy, and the deeper the transformation. Higher Consciousness through Harder Contact."

Guro Crafty, The Tao of the Dog.

Do you want to learn how to use aikido in a fight? The only way is training and fighting. Just do it. What other people does or say doesn't really matter. You have to walk your own path and discover things by yourself. Time (and blood, sweat an tears) will tell.

Keith Larman wrote: But given the original posters comments and subsequent posts I'd probably give the answer I gave the guy I originally talked about. Clearly you'd be best off training in something like BJJ, Krav Maga, etc. because you simply aren't getting what some very experienced people with varied backgrounds have been telling you and you certainly aren't going to "get" aikido right now. And there's nothing wrong with that.

I think that's maybe a little premature. A lot of people come to martial arts because of this vague "self-defense" idea, without really taking a hard look at what their actual self-defense needs are, and I think OP would be the first to say he was in that category. That doesn't mean that aikido isn't a worthwhile pursuit for him at this time -- plenty of people get into martial arts, quickly find that a)it's not a "self-defense" instant magic pill but b)guess what, they really don't need that magic pill anyway, and meanwhile start to discover all these other things about martial arts training that make it highly worthwhile. They come for one reason, they stay for others.

To OP Keith M, I would just say this: try to make your decision about whether to continue training or not based on the training itself, what actually happens on the mat and anything that you can feel happening off the mat, and not on something that you think it will get for you. Eh...I'm having such a hard time finding the words for this. The kind of things I'm talking about are the sort of thing that you never catch if you chase them directly. It's like something that you can't see if you stare at it straight on; you have to catch it out of the corner of your eye. It's like one of those things that you can't do by trying to do it, and the harder you try to force it, the farther away from them you get. It's like the growth of a seedling: you till the soil and you plant the seed and you water it, and then you have to step back and let it grow. The things that aikido training will get you aren't things you can just put down on a checklist and go to work on, like "do laundry" or "learn CPR". They happen within you, in their own time. If you're not feeling anything happen, and you think you've already put in as much time as you feel like putting in, then stop training. Or, if you really do feel the need to develop self-defense skills, then go elsewhere (although I'd strongly advise you to first figure out exactly what you're trying to defend against -- if you don't know where you're going, how do you choose a road to take you there?). Or, if you've still got some patience for it, and you're enjoying your training otherwise, and you can set aside the need to become a Street-Lethal Killing Machine, then keep training, try to set your expectations aside, and see what happens.

I suspect most modern day professional boxers wouldn't last too long against James Figgs, the first English bare-knuckle boxing champion - and that was before the introduction of rules like "no biting, head-butting or hitting below the belt." I also suspect that the boxing friend of Keith Miklas who started all this wouldn't have lasted too long against Shioda.
If I saw a boxer beaten by an aikidoka, or a judoka beaten by a karateka, would I think less of those arts. No.
Any art is about what you bring to it and what you want to get from it. I think this is why there is a fairly high drop out rate in any of the martial arts: people want to be Bruce Lee and when it doesn't happen in six weeks they give up and try something else.
My experience of being with and talking to people who've engaged in martial arts practice for a number of years is that they're generally the nicest people you could want to pass time with - and if that's the outcome then practice in any of the martial arts is a good thing.

i wont pretend that im some expert in aikido or that i even have the understanding of it as most people here. why do i train??? well even after my first class when i stepped off the mat i was changed i wasnt some killing machine who could take on all comers, but inside i was different i was calm and peaceful but most of all i was happy really happy i counldnt stop smiling inside and out . i train because it makes me happy i know it may sound silly but i find calmness from being thrown to the mat over and over again even right now my whole body aches and i cant wait to get to class tonight . so simply i train because it makes me happy and if you find something in your life that makes you happy youll never have to ask yourself why you do something. so the next time you walk into the dojo ask yourself before you step onto the mat am i glad am here is this really what i want if its not than dont fool yourself aikido just isnt for you plain and simple. do what you love and its never a chore.

Shane Mokry wrote: I think your problem originates in the fact that you are defensive. Any time you wiat for an attack, you are a step behind...unless you control distance. (Think about that for a long time) At one month of training you cannot possibly attempt to apply action versus reaction...much less understand it. And you absolutely have no idea how to control distance. Just train. Regards, Shane

Good point. more of a coincidence than anything else, but I wrote a post up on my Blog that was inspired by this thread. If you watch all three videos (really just the first two, 3rd one is entertainment value), you will see that the fighter that wins the fight is the one who closes distance the best. that is, he is on the offense.

Sun Tzu has never failed me. The only time you are going on the defense is to regroup and go on the offense, you never fight from the defensive postion you survive, then move on the offense.

http://www.budo-warrior.com/?p=157

Keith Miklas wrote: Previous to this post, i thought that the purpose of any martial art was to learn how to fight. I see now that all martial arts are not created equal, and their objectives vary greatly; learning how to fight doesn't appear to make the short list of Aikido goals. Boxing is perhaps the closest to "fighting." There is competition. A boxing match is WIN-LOSE. The goal is to knock the other person out with gloved fist. It thus makes sense for a boxer to focus their time on punching. On the other end of the spectrum, we have Aikido: no competition, no winners, and no losers. The uke and nage work together to achieve a common goal. The conflict in Aikido is a harmonious pathway to other ends. In sum, both Aikido and boxing are "martial arts;" however, boxing is more "martial," and Aikido is more "art."

I'd certainly echo alot of thing others are saying as well.

Well most of us already know how to fight! (Semantics I know). Fighting, IMO, is not the issue. It is the desired outcome or endstate you want to acheive with the fight. It may be to provide the most ethical endstate as possible. It may be to neutralize and destroy the enemy for a particular purpose, it could be to arrest a suspect, or it could be to defend youself successfully from a violent encounter...OR it could be to win a tournament.

I believe once you have a focus on your endstate, the issue is to develop skills that allow you to reach that endstate. So when you look at fighting in that way, it expands significantly the spectrum of what fighting is all about.

So when you say that "learning how to fight doesn't appear to make the short list of Aikido goals" I don't believe that is a sound logic statement as "fighting" means many different things depending on your endstate.

You do cover it in your second paragraph pretty well I think about goals and endstates actually.

I think in order to understand the philosophy that wraps aikido methodology, you need to explore many, many ways that can be "fighting". Really to me aikido should encompass understanding the complete spectrum of fighting and violence.

In order to do that, we must put ourselves in some situations in training that may not be comfortable or familiar to us, but if we look at the endstate and why we are placing ourselves in those positions..it makes it easier to do even though it may be a little scary for us.

I think we all have a tendency to gravitate towards what we know and what we feel safe with. To exclude "fighting" from the parameters of aikido is not necessarily the right thing to do I believe. BUT it is also not the sole focus of what we should be about.

Ron Tisdale wrote: Sorry, thought that needed to be repeated. Nice post Keith. One day I hope to enjoy keiko with you. Best, Ron

The feeling is mutual. I'm hoping to make it up to Seattle in a couple months for Jun's gig. It will all depend on how many swords I can get done without destroying my temperamental back in the process. I'd hate to make the time to come up only to be sidelined.

Mary Malmros wrote: I think that's maybe a little premature. A lot of people come to martial arts because of this vague "self-defense" idea, without really taking a hard look at what their actual self-defense needs are, and I think OP would be the first to say he was in that category. That doesn't mean that aikido isn't a worthwhile pursuit for him at this time -- plenty of people get into martial arts, quickly find that a)it's not a "self-defense" instant magic pill but b)guess what, they really don't need that magic pill anyway, and meanwhile start to discover all these other things about martial arts training that make it highly worthwhile. They come for one reason, they stay for others.

Mary,

I don't really disagree with you at all. It all depends on the OP's goals. If his goal is to learn to defend himself as well as possible against experienced fighters quickly and efficiently then he really needs to look into the MMA styles or go with arts that are explicitely designed for that sort of thing.

And don't get me wrong -- I love Aikido. We had a student a while back who was young, strong, and had an amazing aptitude for Aikido. He was *really* good and I think could have gone a really long way. He went with some friends to a BJJ class, got out on the mat, broke a body part, then once he healed he went back... To the BJJ. And honestly I wished him the best -- I think it was a good choice for him. And maybe we'll see him again in 10-15 years when his back, knees, shoulders, elbows, etc. are as sore as mine.

And I also agree that many start for reasons that are nebulous at best. Eventually a few find that jewel at the center and decide to stay. Others do not. But I must say that this particular fellow doesn't seem all that likely a candidate to me for finding that jewel relevant to his life. I could be wrong, but I always try to deal with people on this issue remembering what I was going through at a similar time. Aikido wasn't a good option for me at the age of 17 -- I was looking for something *very* different. And I probably sounded much like the OP. But in my 30's I was a very different person. And my opinions and perceptions themselves had "aged" a bit and things weren't quite so black and white anymore. And then I was a heck of a lot more receptive.

At 17 I saw techniques that didn't work because when I tried them they didn't work. When I was 35 they were techniques that were subtle and I realized that just because I couldn't make them work it didn't mean that they didn't work. And at that point I was able to give a good, solid attack to see that some of my seniors could certainly get it to work on me... So the perception changed -- I wanted what they had. And so it goes.

I'm just not so sure we should be cheerleaders for Aikido at all times. I love the art but as a self-defense art it certainly pales in comparison to most others especially if you consider the very short term. We should be honest about that even if it means some who may have figured it out had they otherwise stayed choose to go elsewhere instead.

Just my personal $.02.

Please tell me you are bringing some of your wares with you?!?

I may not have the money to buy anything, but I've heard so much about your work I could never resist a peek!

Hope to make that myself...we'll see!
Best,
Ron

Honesty is in fact the best policy...

B,
R

Keith Larman wrote: Mary, I'm just not so sure we should be cheerleaders for Aikido at all times. I love the art but as a self-defense art it certainly pales in comparison to most others especially if you consider the very short term. We should be honest about that even if it means some who may have figured it out had they otherwise stayed choose to go elsewhere instead.

I think this bared repeating with emphasis, well stated.

Keith Larman wrote: I'm just not so sure we should be cheerleaders for Aikido at all times. I love the art but as a self-defense art it certainly pales in comparison to most others especially if you consider the very short term. We should be honest about that even if it means some who may have figured it out had they otherwise stayed choose to go elsewhere instead.

I'm not being a cheerleader for aikido, and I'm not saying it's a great short-term self-defense solution -- rather the opposite, if you read what I wrote. I'm saying that I think the "aikido ain't for you" judgment is premature.

For the record. I'm not saying aikido is not for him. I strictly believe you need to have your goals in mind and take frequent stock to make sure you are reaching those goals. If his goals are truly combative, then aikido is not a good choice. Just like I wouldn't recommend boxing to someone who is worried about ground fighting.

Ron Tisdale wrote: Why do you look to others for *your* context? Read the threads here, spend some time on the aikido journal web site reading articles, hit the library. Put it in your own context, and make a good decision for you. Best, Ron

Ron, well put. Exactly.

I practice what some would consider the very soft wussy Aikido,
but I also love a lot much of what Kevin Leavitt, Keith Larman, etc. is posting here.

go figure, you practice long enough you become a bagful of contradictions and reasons change. I am not adverse to mixing in a little Systema, examining the mental game and conditioning, or whatever else works as long as it's congruent with what I feel is Aikido's core and what I consider aikido is inseparable from my experience of it. Build your own. Just don't try summing it up at the beginning of your training.