Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-06-2009, 04:49 PM   #51
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,496
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
(SNIP) ...ya got me going there...
Just have to say...

Agreed.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 05:39 PM   #52
carlo pagal
Dojo: iloilo aikido dojo
Location: iloilo city
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 30
Philippines
Offline
Thumbs up Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

patience, timing and atemi before or upon entering would help.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 06:05 PM   #53
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,628
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

This is some video of Michael Varin and I playing with boxing Vs stick.

http://www.revver.com/video/1421702/stick-vs-boxing/

We did this about 2 years ago. Quickly discovering that the reach of a weapon is far superior to boxing technique.

Michael has been kick boxing for a little over a year at this point, by no means is he exibiting great boxing skill here, but he has far more ability then your average untrained person trying to strike.

Every Jab is either struck before it lands, or is out reached by the weapon. For every glancing blow he got, he received a full power shot. This forced him to use his lead hand to cover the majority of the time.

He was forced to attempt to rush me in order to minimize the damage he received.

The gloves eliminated his ability to grab the weapon hand, so in a clench situation he was unable to effetivly stop the weapon hand from doing damage. This is also what would happen if someone didn't grab your wrist in this situation.

I Wasn't trying any Aikido technique here, aside from a koshi that was too perfect to pass up. We were trying to stick to straight boxing vs short stick. However you can see the openings for many Aikido techniques in this scenario.

As you can see the weapon force's the striker to rush it, committing much more then he'd like to. Also if he is not able to control the wrist, he cannot effectively stop the weapon hand from doing damage to him when he is in close.

This scenario presents two of the requirements necessary for Aikido techniques to be applied to the attacker.

1. Attacker rushing in.
2. Desire to control the wrist.

Further, if this was not a padded stick, but instead a wakazashi, you can see there would be little need to apply any technique, unless they successfully rushed you, and controlled your weapon hand.

Samurai didn't need to worry about boxers...

Last edited by ChrisHein : 01-06-2009 at 06:08 PM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 06:18 PM   #54
lifeafter2am
Dojo: Shindai Aikikai
Location: Orlando
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 153
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Samurai didn't need to worry about boxers...
LOL! Boxer vs extremely sharp cutting sword that can cut off the arms.

"The mind is everything. What you think you become." - Siddhattha Gotama Buddha
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 06:31 PM   #55
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,883
Spain
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Chris,

Then what is needed is an empty hand yokomen uchi that hurts like a stick ... the old "aikido is 90% atemi" quote.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 06:36 PM   #56
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,628
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Well you wouldn't get the reach advantage, which is what I think force's the attacker to rush in...

But I get where you're coming from. You could just carry an ASP.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 06:44 PM   #57
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,883
Spain
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
But I get where you're coming from. You could just carry an ASP.
I'm coming from here: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...68&postcount=3

Who would need an ASP with this kind of striking power?

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 07:19 PM   #58
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,628
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
There goes the whole, "control the attacker with out hurting them" theory...

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 08:29 PM   #59
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,496
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
There goes the whole, "control the attacker with out hurting them" theory...
Interesting you should say that. Just recently I was explaining to a class that "an attitude of Loving Protection" is *not* the same as saying the attacker isn't going to get hurt.

My goal is not to hurt the attacker but to try to control him. Unfortunately in some situations the other fella may in fact be hurt. But that is not my priority -- my priority is control of the situation. And yes, I'd be the one hurting him if necessary in order to do that. So my goal is not his injury but controlling.

Contrast that with going in with the intention to do damage as the goal. This is aggressively trying to hurt them as a primary goal.

The goals are different. However, you may end up doing exactly the same thing. It is more about attitude and mindset as you do whatever it is you do than it is about the details of what is in fact done.

The point is the attitude. The point is the ability to let go of the intent and do what is necessary to blend and control. My favorite image is always Fudo Myoo with his sword and rope. Powerful image.

If that makes any sense...

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 09:37 PM   #60
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

[quote=Keith Miklas;222979]This paragraph sums up my mistake well. I tried to force Aikido techniques on a jabbing boxer; and they don't work well against jabs. Aikido seems to require a committed attack to throw an opponent off balance.
[quote]

A committed attack or a commited entry. Who cares who's going what way as long as he ends up on the floor.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 09:44 PM   #61
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
.

Watch a good MMA guy in the ring closely. Especially when the are against the cage. They will pummel, underhook, control the shoulder to the spine, irimi and spin the opponent against the cage.
Normally, I would go into some long post about aliveness and crap all over the place. But this time I'm going to make one short statement about this. One I know you already know. The difference here is that the mma fighter is used to doing this against someone who doesn't want him to do it. The average aikidoka, even after a decade probably has not.

That out of the way, I would like to add this.

Most people are commenting on how little training the student has and how he is not even qualified to demonstrate a move. I find this as a huge flaw in the training method. In boxing, judo, bjj, tkd, karate, etc I could think of dozens of moves I would expect a 1 month student to be qualified to demonstrate. Let me elaborate.

If I was teaching a student judo for 1 month and a new student came in, I would fully trust that student to help the brand new student work on basic throws like O'Soto gari. Granted, his osoto is not going to be refined as mine, the same as my osoto is no where in the same realm as say my 6th degree instructor, but he should be able to demonstrate the basics and perform this technique against other students in randori. Another example is I would expect a beginning bjj student to be able to demonstrate basic positional transitions and submissions after one month. The should be able to do an armbar, rnc, maybe a few collar chokes. They should be able to transition, know at least one good guard pass, and at least explain the proper way to maintain position. Should they be able to beat me? No way, but they should be able to show a advantage against a first week student.

It is interesting to me that we do not expect this from aikidoka. At what point would we expect to see this? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? A black belt? A 5th degree black belt? I honestly don't think he was trying to outbox a boxer. I think he was trying to out aikido a boxer without the proper aikido skill. He didn't say he was standing toe to toe trying to fake and jab. He said he was trying to blend, grab the wrist, perform ikkyo, cause his opponent to over extend, etc. While I don't think this is a good tactic for fighting a good striker, he still was not trying to box him. At what level would anyone expect a different result?

Anyways, back to my cave now...

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 09:47 PM   #62
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
This scenario presents two of the requirements necessary for Aikido techniques to be applied to the attacker.

1. Attacker rushing in.
2. Desire to control the wrist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 10:15 PM   #63
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Normally, I would go into some long post about aliveness and crap all over the place. But this time I'm going to make one short statement about this. One I know you already know. The difference here is that the mma fighter is used to doing this against someone who doesn't want him to do it. The average aikidoka, even after a decade probably has not.

That out of the way, I would like to add this.

Most people are commenting on how little training the student has and how he is not even qualified to demonstrate a move. I find this as a huge flaw in the training method. In boxing, judo, bjj, tkd, karate, etc I could think of dozens of moves I would expect a 1 month student to be qualified to demonstrate. Let me elaborate.

If I was teaching a student judo for 1 month and a new student came in, I would fully trust that student to help the brand new student work on basic throws like O'Soto gari. Granted, his osoto is not going to be refined as mine, the same as my osoto is no where in the same realm as say my 6th degree instructor, but he should be able to demonstrate the basics and perform this technique against other students in randori. Another example is I would expect a beginning bjj student to be able to demonstrate basic positional transitions and submissions after one month. The should be able to do an armbar, rnc, maybe a few collar chokes. They should be able to transition, know at least one good guard pass, and at least explain the proper way to maintain position. Should they be able to beat me? No way, but they should be able to show a advantage against a first week student.

It is interesting to me that we do not expect this from aikidoka. At what point would we expect to see this? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? A black belt? A 5th degree black belt? I honestly don't think he was trying to outbox a boxer. I think he was trying to out aikido a boxer without the proper aikido skill. He didn't say he was standing toe to toe trying to fake and jab. He said he was trying to blend, grab the wrist, perform ikkyo, cause his opponent to over extend, etc. While I don't think this is a good tactic for fighting a good striker, he still was not trying to box him. At what level would anyone expect a different result?

Anyways, back to my cave now...
It's adaption of knowledge rather than training that's lacking. Lots of Aikidoka know how to do kata, very few of them, it seems, bother studying the kata and seeing what lessons can be learned from it, so when it comes to a real situation they try doing kata.

I reckon it would be possible to teach someone of fairly modest Aikido ability (6 months-2 years depending on dojo) how to deal with a boxer very quickly. I'm talking hours here. They already have the skills, just not the realisation of how to use them.

If you wanted an "aikido based" solution, kinda like a mini "anti boxing" martial art and you weren't interested in teaching Aikido, I reckon it would be possible to teach it in about a month or two.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 10:31 PM   #64
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,369
Germany
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Normally, I would go into some long post about aliveness and crap all over the place. But this time I'm going to make one short statement about this. One I know you already know. The difference here is that the mma fighter is used to doing this against someone who doesn't want him to do it. The average aikidoka, even after a decade probably has not.

That out of the way, I would like to add this.

Most people are commenting on how little training the student has and how he is not even qualified to demonstrate a move. I find this as a huge flaw in the training method. In boxing, judo, bjj, tkd, karate, etc I could think of dozens of moves I would expect a 1 month student to be qualified to demonstrate. Let me elaborate.

If I was teaching a student judo for 1 month and a new student came in, I would fully trust that student to help the brand new student work on basic throws like O'Soto gari. Granted, his osoto is not going to be refined as mine, the same as my osoto is no where in the same realm as say my 6th degree instructor, but he should be able to demonstrate the basics and perform this technique against other students in randori. Another example is I would expect a beginning bjj student to be able to demonstrate basic positional transitions and submissions after one month. The should be able to do an armbar, rnc, maybe a few collar chokes. They should be able to transition, know at least one good guard pass, and at least explain the proper way to maintain position. Should they be able to beat me? No way, but they should be able to show a advantage against a first week student.

It is interesting to me that we do not expect this from aikidoka. At what point would we expect to see this? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? A black belt? A 5th degree black belt? I honestly don't think he was trying to outbox a boxer. I think he was trying to out aikido a boxer without the proper aikido skill. He didn't say he was standing toe to toe trying to fake and jab. He said he was trying to blend, grab the wrist, perform ikkyo, cause his opponent to over extend, etc. While I don't think this is a good tactic for fighting a good striker, he still was not trying to box him. At what level would anyone expect a different result?

Anyways, back to my cave now...
Good Post Don.

I think because we concentrate more on teaching principles in Aikido we may not be so concerned with "hard" "definitive" skills.

My own personal opinion when training "martial students" is that they all should know a few basic things in the first 9o days. The things you describe.

How to Clinch, how to do some basic takedowns, what the ground positions are top and bottom.

From there we can then start developing martial skills including aiki.

I think the real issue is that once you go down that road, it becomes real hard to climb back up out of it and go back to teaching the basic aiki concepts sometimes.

Hence, why I like to keep my Jiu Jitsu practice somewhat separate from my Aiki practice.

I think in a perfect world, students would study JJ first, then study AIkido later on.

But that is just my opinion.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 10:41 PM   #65
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,369
Germany
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
It's adaption of knowledge rather than training that's lacking. Lots of Aikidoka know how to do kata, very few of them, it seems, bother studying the kata and seeing what lessons can be learned from it, so when it comes to a real situation they try doing kata.

I reckon it would be possible to teach someone of fairly modest Aikido ability (6 months-2 years depending on dojo) how to deal with a boxer very quickly. I'm talking hours here. They already have the skills, just not the realisation of how to use them.

If you wanted an "aikido based" solution, kinda like a mini "anti boxing" martial art and you weren't interested in teaching Aikido, I reckon it would be possible to teach it in about a month or two.
Agreed.

We teach this pretty quickly, at least the concept in Army Combatives.

That said, YMMV.

Here is a video show our basic "Close the distance, Clinch Drill" that you recieve in the first week of training (Day 4).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIKCwK7MES8

Note the guy coming in for the clinch. He is getting killed because he hesitates and bends over and leads with his head. We teach them to NOT do this, but again YMMV depending on the student and their skill level, personality, and all that.

Here is a video showing step by step how we teach in from my friend Matt Larsen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMQKGTGFl5c

Here is a soldier doing a little bit better job at it. Probably a wrestler looking the way he moves. The key point is, he does not hesitate and keeps driving into the fight and he takes less of a beating by keeping the boxer off his base.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxQKdfh0XYY

Please spare the knife fighting comments. We got it. This is contextual and situational and there is more to this than what this simple exercise is designed to show.

The key is this. It is dynamic, alive, and can be trained quickly. From there you can develop a martial base that is more posture oriented and correct, efficient, and uses economy.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2009, 12:28 AM   #66
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
At what level would anyone expect a different result?
Basic Aikido I'd say about 3rd or 2nd Kyu so perhaps six months to a year and a half of hard practice.It would depend on how well the student understood and practiced outside of the dojo.

I don't care how good a teacher you are in my experiance. Nobody really knows too much of anything in only one month of training at the your average dojo in any Martial Art against (and this is the key point you missed) a seasoned experianced boxer. To break it down even further If you go to the Dojo 3 times a week that is only 12 training sessions of appoximately 1 1/2 hours thats 18 hours of practice time on the mat.

Be it Kumite Sparring Randori or whatever aliveness training you do conceptually speaking you're talking pitting a very basic white belt vs a seasoned black belt.

At one month in my Dojo you would not get beyond basic cutting punching kicking elbow katas and Ukemi Ukemi Ukemi with perhaps a very basic technique like Shionage, Ikkyo, and Nikkyo.

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2009, 11:09 AM   #67
Amadeus
Dojo: Arendal Aikido
Location: Arendal
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 20
Norway
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Doesn't matter what you train, but how you train. I'm pretty sure most boxers train to fight and most aikidoka don't.

Train however you like and have fun.

Dash is good self defence btw

Love me, hate me, tolerate me or ignore me. I care!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2009, 12:42 PM   #68
dalen7
 
dalen7's Avatar
Dojo: Karcag Aikido Club
Location: Karcag
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 750
Hungary
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Keith Miklas wrote: View Post
This paragraph sums up my mistake well. I tried to force Aikido techniques on a jabbing boxer; and they don't work well against jabs. Aikido seems to require a committed attack to throw an opponent off balance.
Hmmm....
Cant believe I will soon be coming up on 2 years of Aikido - seems like yesterday I first joined this board.

In saying that, I still feel like a beginner. But...I have to remember how much of a beginner I was when I first stepped in.

Aikido, from how I see it, is not something you just walk into and then you expect to get something that will give you some championship title.

Yes, I believe it has some good techniques which can be executed effectively, outside a ring, within a few months of practice. (Bouncer at the bar, etc.)

But, a lot of people tend to not think of atemi, or striking parts, as part of Aikido. If someone is coming at me, at this point anyway - I would:
a: run
b: nail them in the face and then pin them down. (so Aikido would come in.

It really depends on what you want.
In truth, Im not looking to get in a fight, yet I do have an interest in sport fighting. While Aikido may not best fit a sport fight, I can see where it can blend nicely if you know another art as well.

Ill tell you a good situation for aikido.

Do you know the video, "Dont Tase me Bro" on You Tube?
How many security guards were there, and for how long did they try to get the dude to cooperate, just to end up having to tase him.

Dont know about the rest of you, but I saw plenty of time, and opportunity to put sankyo on him and walk him out without second thought...

People tend to forget that most people are not looking to get into a scrap and fight you. The world is not a fight club, and they are afraid of getting arrested, etc. If an argument breaks out in a fight - the guy who knows aikdio will probably have the upper hand, as people will still be reluctant to make a blow...if for nothing out of fear of trouble with the law.

Now, also consider, that the thing that caused the fight to begin with, and know that many in Aikido seek to eliminate the element that caused the issue to begin with. (i.e, in the case above, it was the argument.)

I was actually in a case like that.
A dude I knew was in a heated talk with me, he pulled off some judo move out of no where, went to the ground and I kicked him in the face to get him off me, and then punched him in the nose to make sure he wouldnt try anything stupid.

Got out of hand? Amazing how one defending who is right and wrong can lead to violence heh? Had I known Aikido back then, i could have had an opportunity to pin him down, with my knee in his neck till he lightened up.

But even more, had I watched what was inside, and not gotten involved in someone elses turmoil, I could have avoided it all together.

So, anyway.
You want to fight a boxer...then kick him in the, you know where.
Seriously though - the whole point is that life is fluid and its never been about one art being more superior than another. Each is a tool for the purpose it was intended for. That purpose is created by you.

Peace

dAlen

dAlen [day•lynn]
dum spiro spero - {While I have breathe - I have hope}

Art
http://www.lightofinfinity.org

Philosophical
http://dalen7.wordpress.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2009, 02:09 PM   #69
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,369
Germany
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Basic Aikido I'd say about 3rd or 2nd Kyu so perhaps six months to a year and a half of hard practice.It would depend on how well the student understood and practiced outside of the dojo.

I don't care how good a teacher you are in my experiance. Nobody really knows too much of anything in only one month of training at the your average dojo in any Martial Art against (and this is the key point you missed) a seasoned experianced boxer. To break it down even further If you go to the Dojo 3 times a week that is only 12 training sessions of appoximately 1 1/2 hours thats 18 hours of practice time on the mat.

Be it Kumite Sparring Randori or whatever aliveness training you do conceptually speaking you're talking pitting a very basic white belt vs a seasoned black belt.

At one month in my Dojo you would not get beyond basic cutting punching kicking elbow katas and Ukemi Ukemi Ukemi with perhaps a very basic technique like Shionage, Ikkyo, and Nikkyo.

William Hazen
I think Don's and my point is that "martially" speaking, there are some very, very basic things/skills that can be learned, communicated to a decent level of tactical proficiency in a very short period of time. One month is not unreasonable, for example to learn how to basic clinch and to eliminate the Conditoned Response that I showed in the first video in my post above. Of course, that all depends on the person, it may take more time depending on the individual. I have seen guys come in and get it within an hour too.

Again, I am speaking basic martial skill. IMO, it is better to indentify that this is an issue and then work on reconditioning it, reprogramming it upfront before we move on to more complex things that we do in aikido. It is gross motor skills and a Conditioned (or Unconditioned, depending on how you look at it) Response and it needs to be fixed if you are ever going to be "Martial".

The full speed video is not HOW you fix it, that is just to present the conditions at a "safe" level that allow you to indentify it and to provide feedback to the student.

I am not sure why you would continue to train for months and years doing "martial arts" only to find out later on you have this "problem" when presented with a "fight". When clinching is a basic martial skill.

I understand it is a different way of thinking for many of us that have learned from other "traditional" methodologies that call for a very slow, methodical, coaching along process of learning how to properly punch and kick and do ashi taiso etc., etc...

AND I understand that this method is not for everyone. Not everyone has the desire to be punched at with this level of intensity in their frist month of training. Many folks may not be mentally, physically, or emotionally ready to train this way, and many may not really ever care to train this way.

I understand that, and traditional methods that we do are certainly valid ways to continue to train people that want to go that way.

However, the point is, that for those that can and want to, there are ways/methods that allow people to gain a good base of skill of some very basic martial things in a short period of time that provide them a good base to expand upon with more micro level training over years.

I have certainly changed my way of thinking in the last five years concerning training. I think that you train some very "macro" level "gross motor" movements first, then you whittle down to "micro" fine level for the details.

I agree William, it does not mean that we can have a white belt come in and beat a black belt....but then again, I had done about 10 years of martial training including Aikido, and had a kid that had only trained 4 months in MACP totally own me "martially".

It was an eye openning experience for me and showed me that I'd had better re-evaluate my own personal methodology.

Does it mean I am any better at Aikido than I was 5 years ago. No, not really. While I feel I have a much, much stronger martial base and it has helped my aikido training immensely...the process/methodologies are not necessarily linear...it is a much more complicated issue than that, as Aikido is about much more than simply being "combat effective", so you have to be careful to understand what you are evaluating and how.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2009, 04:12 PM   #70
gregg block
 
gregg block's Avatar
Location: bethlehem PA
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 127
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

"Got pwned by boxer ". Not surprised . A good boxer is dangerous. They know how to strike. Period end of story. And to quite Mike Tyson. "everyones got a plan till you hit them in the mouth" . Something to keep in mind when trying to figure out how to take on a good boxer.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2009, 04:52 PM   #71
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I think Don's and my point is that "martially" speaking, there are some very, very basic things/skills that can be learned, communicated to a decent level of tactical proficiency in a very short period of time. One month is not unreasonable, for example to learn how to basic clinch and to eliminate the Conditoned Response that I showed in the first video in my post above. Of course, that all depends on the person, it may take more time depending on the individual. I have seen guys come in and get it within an hour too.
No disagreement there really Notice how I have newbies focus on punching and kicking and our elbow kata. learning to strike is the most important thing in any Martial System. Putting it all together in a way you can show what you know, transmit it, and be effective against other experianced Martial Artists takes allot more time than a month. Every Newbie I know including me got so excited by what they were learning they suffered the reality of thier folly. I have made this mistake many times and it looks like so have you. LOL

Quote:
Again, I am speaking basic martial skill. IMO, it is better to indentify that this is an issue and then work on reconditioning it, reprogramming it upfront before we move on to more complex things that we do in aikido. It is gross motor skills and a Conditioned (or Unconditioned, depending on how you look at it) Response and it needs to be fixed if you are ever going to be "Martial".
Again I feel we're walking the same walk.

Quote:
I am not sure why you would continue to train for months and years doing "martial arts" only to find out later on you have this "problem" when presented with a "fight". When clinching is a basic martial skill.
Agree

Quote:
I understand it is a different way of thinking for many of us that have learned from other "traditional" methodologies that call for a very slow, methodical, coaching along process of learning how to properly punch and kick and do ashi taiso etc., etc...

AND I understand that this method is not for everyone. Not everyone has the desire to be punched at with this level of intensity in their frist month of training. Many folks may not be mentally, physically, or emotionally ready to train this way, and many may not really ever care to train this way.

I understand that, and traditional methods that we do are certainly valid ways to continue to train people that want to go that way.

However, the point is, that for those that can and want to, there are ways/methods that allow people to gain a good base of skill of some very basic martial things in a short period of time that provide them a good base to expand upon with more micro level training over years.

I have certainly changed my way of thinking in the last five years concerning training. I think that you train some very "macro" level "gross motor" movements first, then you whittle down to "micro" fine level for the details.
Well to put this in context...You have to train to the lowest common denominator in the Army. You must assume no one has had any prior experiance in the Martial Arts. The same challenge confronts most Aikido Dojos An experianced Martial Artist from another discipline already has this knowledge. That may be why Aikido is losing it's attractiveness in some levels. The concepts of Irimi, Tenken, and Aiki are not something your're going to become an expert in ever unless you devote yourself to focused hard practice. How can I do that if I am busy teaching more than half my class how to punch? I don't think O'Sensei had this "problem" (but I could be wrong) At least Shoji Nishio understood this along with a few other different "hard" styles of Aikido... Which is why he incorporated the Sword, Karate, and Judo among other things to make our Aikido more "Martial" However it is still Aikido

Quote:
I agree William, it does not mean that we can have a white belt come in and beat a black belt....but then again, I had done about 10 years of martial training including Aikido, and had a kid that had only trained 4 months in MACP totally own me "martially".

It was an eye openning experience for me and showed me that I'd had better re-evaluate my own personal methodology.

Does it mean I am any better at Aikido than I was 5 years ago. No, not really. While I feel I have a much, much stronger martial base and it has helped my aikido training immensely...the process/methodologies are not necessarily linear...it is a much more complicated issue than that, as Aikido is about much more than simply being "combat effective", so you have to be careful to understand what you are evaluating and how.
Very True Sir....Very True.

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2009, 06:41 PM   #72
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,369
Germany
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

William wrote:

Quote:
No disagreement there really Notice how I have newbies focus on punching and kicking and our elbow kata. learning to strike is the most important thing in any Martial System. Putting it all together in a way you can show what you know, transmit it, and be effective against other experianced Martial Artists takes allot more time than a month. Every Newbie I know including me got so excited by what they were learning they suffered the reality of thier folly. I have made this mistake many times and it looks like so have you
Yes, kicking and punching is important, it really forms the basis of what we are mostly about. I have no argument really with you at all!

I started to write a long post about this, but it has inspired me to develop a more detailed on on my blog so I think I will post it there when I am done with it.

I tend to look at punching and kicking a little differently than many.

My feeling is that by the time we are 8 or 9 years old we have those basic skills figured out. Most kids have developed at least the ability to extend there hand out in a fist and make contact with another kid in an effective manner. It may not be perfect, but technically we have that block checked when they show up.

What they lack is putting those skills to use in a meaningful way with movement. In MACP, we will approach this almost exact opposite of most methods.

I will give them a 30 second class on punching which is essentially make a fist and extend it out and ask if everyone feels comfortable with their ability to do that! (never had anyone ask for remedial training!)

We will then move on to start teaching them how to receive punches re the clinch drill in the video. They very quickly start learning and forming a new conditioned response to getting hit and how to deal with punches. Teaching them to form frames, keep posture, create distance to guard against kicks, and so forth.

They learn suprisingly fast how to move and develop some decent conditioning and programming in gross motor movements defensively, which as you know, begins to slow down the fight for them.

What else is happening that they may not know is they are developing a feel for pressure and connectedness and ma ai.

then they will be able to start connecting this with kicking and punching and then move on to increasingly more technical work such as keeping eblows in, trajectory, moving from the core not extending/overextending.

This is pretty much the exact opposite of how I learned to punch and kick! I started ala karate style learning kata, one steps, and light, technicall "sparring" that gradually increased in speed and pressure, but never really got into a clinch fight, because the clinch fight was very irrational to us and our conditioned responses we had formed! it just never came up...Why would you ever fight this way??? (The whole cognitive dissonance thing!).

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2009, 07:14 PM   #73
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,369
Germany
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Sorry William, I didn't get to finish my post.....

Quote:
The concepts of Irimi, Tenken, and Aiki are not something your're going to become an expert in ever unless you devote yourself to focused hard practice. How can I do that if I am busy teaching more than half my class how to punch?
No they are not something you are going to master easily. I know I am not even close!

This brings up a good point though. What I and Don are talking about is not "becoming and expert" or "mastery". I want to make that clear to folks. What we are talking about is simply basic framework.

In aikido, we have a "mastery" focus endstate. We put the highest priority on mastering the tenants of budo and the development of character...through the study of martial arts, not martial mastery.

This is an important distinction to make I think.

The difference in what I am looking at is simply a martial endstate where we have someone with a very basic understanding of fighting. Very basic. But I think it does provide a good foundation to build upon, IMO.

Not necessary as it is simply another method among many methods for sure.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2009, 07:31 PM   #74
locke_03
 
locke_03's Avatar
Dojo: jiai aikido
Location: san diego, ca
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 11
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

im confused by all this here your taking aikido and sparing that right doesnt sound right at all.

when i picture an aikido fight i see two man with amazing ability staring down each other waiting for the other one to attack therefore there is no fight. you see aikido is not about fighting maybe you should look into another martial art such BJJ i think then even after a month of training your boxer friend might be in trouble.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2009, 09:16 PM   #75
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Sorry William, I didn't get to finish my post.....

No they are not something you are going to master easily. I know I am not even close!

This brings up a good point though. What I and Don are talking about is not "becoming and expert" or "mastery". I want to make that clear to folks. What we are talking about is simply basic framework.

In aikido, we have a "mastery" focus endstate. We put the highest priority on mastering the tenants of budo and the development of character...through the study of martial arts, not martial mastery.

This is an important distinction to make I think.

The difference in what I am looking at is simply a martial endstate where we have someone with a very basic understanding of fighting. Very basic. But I think it does provide a good foundation to build upon, IMO.

Not necessary as it is simply another method among many methods for sure.
I agree with this 100% and it was exactly the point I was getting at. There are quicker ways to good self defense then martial arts ( a few months of training, a carry permit, and a XD sub compact 40 solve most problems anyone here might face), but that does not mean a good foundation needs to be avoided in the name of perfection.

I teach a beginners judo class on thursdays. My goal is to first get them to fight. I want them to struggle, push, pull, strain, stiff arm, get frustrated. I want them to learn what aggression is and develop a good fighting spirit. At the same time I also want them to learn gross motor skills that make up the essence of judo. We focus on good footwork, grip fighting, and basic high percentage throws, pins and submissions. Later as they get better they get to go to finishing school (my instructors) and learn that judo is not a fight. But those fighting days leave an impression and give them a will to succeed.

Beginners are not going to relax anyways, they are going to struggle, and all the telling them to stand upright and not stiff arm are going to do jack squat. So I encourage them. I show the proper form and technique, but I encourage their enthusiasm and as they gain skill it just melts away.

Humans can learn more from struggle and conflict then they realize. They are stronger then they realize and more resilient then they realize. A little empirical testing can go a long way to develop skill and really takes nothing away from any other training you might do.

And with some luck, I will one day not have to explain to poorly informed martial artists why their elbow to the spin won't cripple me when I do a takedown, or how their number 2 front kick won't shatter my knee, or how hitting nerve cluster three is not going to force the left side of my body to go limp.

I think of my aikido training as a finishing school. It has principles that seem to work great when I already outclass my opponent or partner. I could beat them without aikido already, but using aikido adds a level of simplicity to it. However, I don't think any of the aikido that I've learned (the very small amount I have ) would ever work without the direct fighting skill I've developed outside aikido in combat sports.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

The Aikido of Shin-Budo Kai - A new book profiles Shizuo Imaizumi Sensei and the practice of SBK Aikido



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
defending against a boxer Bernie V General 132 08-03-2012 01:04 PM
Sport is the new Budo Aiki Liu General 95 02-19-2007 06:33 AM
Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style? Pdella General 49 08-05-2005 04:45 PM
aikido aggainst a boxer solidsteven General 47 11-26-2003 11:05 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:26 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate