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Old 03-10-2009, 03:10 PM   #251
Guilty Spark
 
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Jerry Silverman wrote: View Post
I'm currently serving my final years as a Provost Marshal (MP) in Japan. I've served in Iraq and GTMO doing a similar jobs. Soon I'll be working as a prison guard in Fresno, CA. Outside of that you'll have to buy me some beers after some hard work at the dojo to hear some specifics.

I suppose I was a bit harsh. Its not that aikido is completely ineffective, its just that its by far the least effective MA ever developed imo. It actually makes naturally tough people worse fighters. I and many others would have been far better off never thinking they could catch punches/shanks/etc. into wristlocks or fancy throws. (as I did after 6 years of study).

If it works for you, I think it has to do with your natural attributes. For me and MOST others, i'll just inflate your ego into thinking you can do things you can not.
Hey Jerry, thanks for the reply.

I've actually spoken to a few prison guards who have widely mixed reviews about Aikido in the application of their jobs. Some swear by it, others share your opinion on it. Personally I think a prison guards (also police officer, military police) opinion on Aikido is ideal when discussing the martial effectiveness of it.

You mentioned bulshido so I'd imagine you can understand why I'd ask about your experience considering the mentality of *some* of the posters there.
ie.. "I just got banned from aikiweb those dummies LOLZ lets go troll them". Experience for some of them seems to amount to watching youtube videos.

I actually think I know what you mean when you suggest it makes naturally tough people less effective. Maybe.
My old training partner had multiple black belts in various martial arts. (Twice my age, 3/4ths my weight and I wouldn't try and fight him if I had a sword and two buddies with me).
He had a hard time unlearning his martial arts and doing it the aikido way. I'm sure if he tried to use aikido to defend himself he'd me much less proficient than using his judo, aikijitsu, karate ninjitsu etc..

I don't know much about advanced aikido or cross training but perhaps the key to not making aikido lessen someone's effectiveness (were that the case) would be for said person to find ways to make the aikido work against a boxer, judo type, stand up fighter, whatever. They might be handicapped at the beginning of their training naturally but keep training.

Watching my old partner mix Judo and Aikido (against me) was devastating. He didn't seem to have a problem making what we learned as aikido white belts work (of course that's thanks to his other martial arts experience)
So maybe it does initially make a tough person less 'tough' to an extent but that can quickly be overcame with training and the ability to improvise and adapt.

If I had an example it would be in an instance where I caught someones wrist (I got lucky) and failing to perform a kotegashi I caught his arm in a shinoage standing up. I couldn't take his balance and throw him to the floor so I gave him some atemi (spelling?) to the face.
It was really close quarters and the shinoage allowed me to control him quite easily.

As for catching punches and knives as 'the norm' that's crazy.
I don't know if it's a yoshinkan thing but from day one my instructor repeated over and over you won't catch someone throwing a punch a you and you wont catch a knife coming towards you.

The whole training to catch a punch thing sounds like the same the old "I was talking to a guy who knows a guy who says Aikido doesn't work in UFC becase it's too dangerous, people would get killed, LOL"

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 03-10-2009, 09:08 PM   #252
wideawakedreamer
 
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote: View Post
As for catching punches and knives as 'the norm' that's crazy.
I don't know if it's a yoshinkan thing but from day one my instructor repeated over and over you won't catch someone throwing a punch a you and you wont catch a knife coming towards you.

The whole training to catch a punch thing sounds like the same the old "I was talking to a guy who knows a guy who says Aikido doesn't work in UFC becase it's too dangerous, people would get killed, LOL"
I agree. I don't recall ever being told by my instructors to catch a punch. It's usually either "get off the line of attack" or "get of the line and hit the other guy while you're at it".

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Old 03-11-2009, 12:40 AM   #253
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

The whole punch catching thing is usually a what gets translated by some students.

I was teaching nikkyo to a couple of guys the other day trying to get across that I feel it is secondary to reach for uke's hand and primary to use "aiki" or Kuzushi, or atemi (however you want to look at it), first. That is deal with Uke's center then you can do the technique without leaving uke's center (hard to describe here).

They shook heads north and south that they understood, then proceeded to reach for the hand as the primary driver, as that is what everyone emotionally keys on when grabbed.

I have no problem with the principle of nikkyo and I can demonstrate it in a non-compliant environment (principle/not technique), however if the two students I was working with tried it, they would not be successful more than likely, IMO.

So, is it aikido? or is it the fact that it takes time to alot of work to teach people to not do certain things or follow their perceptions/proprioceptions?

There is a reason why we practice the way we do!

I can tell someone to deal with uke's center first and they will still try and catch punches! sigh!

Last edited by Kevin Leavitt : 03-11-2009 at 12:42 AM. Reason: spelln

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Old 03-13-2009, 07:21 AM   #254
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
The whole punch catching thing is usually a what gets translated by some students.

I was teaching nikkyo to a couple of guys the other day trying to get across that I feel it is secondary to reach for uke's hand and primary to use "aiki" or Kuzushi, or atemi (however you want to look at it), first. That is deal with Uke's center then you can do the technique without leaving uke's center (hard to describe here).

They shook heads north and south that they understood, then proceeded to reach for the hand as the primary driver, as that is what everyone emotionally keys on when grabbed.

I have no problem with the principle of nikkyo and I can demonstrate it in a non-compliant environment (principle/not technique), however if the two students I was working with tried it, they would not be successful more than likely, IMO.

So, is it aikido? or is it the fact that it takes time to alot of work to teach people to not do certain things or follow their perceptions/proprioceptions?

There is a reason why we practice the way we do!

I can tell someone to deal with uke's center first and they will still try and catch punches! sigh!
Hello kev

I think it very hard for people to understand that in a thrust punch your opponent center/boddy is connected to his wrist for a fair amount of time and even if the punch is delivered with proper time and no over extension. That connection between the fist and the centre make it practical to use the wrist to control the body.
For a jab or cross even if the jab or cross are delivered with a small gather step. The wrist body connectionist only there before impact, so if you are good at ki-no nogare, your opponent will think he has you and you will have the connection because he your opponent believes he has you (though the windows of opportunity is very small) but otherwise getting the wrist will give you nothing.

So in two thing that looks very similar, in one case you have the man by using the wrist and in the other you have the wrist and the man has you.

I thing that practicing from solid makes it easier to understand that.

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 03-20-2009, 03:30 AM   #255
Russell Davis
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Clarification for Clarence of Henderson;
Best stand up - Muay Thai
Upright Grappling- Muay Thai, Jujitsu, Silat
Groundwork- Jujitsu, Roman Grecko wrestling, TEETH.
Aikido V Boxing, depends on how good the opponents are, depends on the enviroment, Eg open space or telephone box.

* People who box (I have) have the luxury of padded gloves, in the street, you dont get that luxury, and I have seen many people get broken fingers from hitting a hard moving funny shaped thing called a head. (I have one of them too)

A Simple defence is an elbow destruction (elbow in front of your face) or "Crash" into his face & groin, take your pick.

There are also some very interesting Dim Mak targets available to incapacitate or KO anyone, any size. which brings me back to the "State of Mind" element which is often overlooked.

Aikido inside the box V Aikido outside the box??? this would be a more interesting talk point.

Last edited by Russell Davis : 03-20-2009 at 03:38 AM. Reason: add to the end part
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Old 03-20-2009, 03:40 AM   #256
Tim Gerrard
 
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Russell Davis wrote: View Post
Aikido inside the box V Aikido outside the box??? this would be a more interesting talk point.
Or one of them in a box depending on how much they train

Aikido doesn't work? My Aikido works, what on earth are you practicing?!
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Old 03-20-2009, 07:29 AM   #257
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

"Roman Grecko wrestling"???
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Old 03-20-2009, 07:45 AM   #258
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

I like gecko wrestling personally! Cept they are hard to hold on to, Greek ones can be difficult too, but they do tend to be a little more orthodox.

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Old 03-20-2009, 07:51 AM   #259
C. David Henderson
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

ninja geckos roam unobtrusively, and blend well with their environment; tis well-known.
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Old 03-20-2009, 09:43 AM   #260
Cyrijl
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

I also concur with the pointing and laughing.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 03-20-2009, 04:37 PM   #261
Russell Davis
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Did I miss something ?
or are you pointing and laughing at your own ignorance?
(lack of knowledge and EXPERIENCE)
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Old 03-20-2009, 04:49 PM   #262
C. David Henderson
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Hi Russell;

FWIW, I did not intend to "point and laugh," certainly not at your post. I have a weakness for word-play, which I was indulging; sorry if that felt like or contributed to any piling on.

Respectfully.

cdh
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Old 03-23-2009, 09:10 AM   #263
Cyrijl
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
There are also some very interesting Dim Mak targets available to incapacitate or KO anyone, any size. which brings me back to the "State of Mind" element which is often overlooked.
I am laughing at your childish over simplificaiton and belief in dim mak. Can you please refer to an actual use of Dim Mak in actual combat? With proof please.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 03-23-2009, 01:54 PM   #264
Michael Douglas
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Dim Mak!
...now, Dim-Mak death-touch Gekkos ... where do I sign?
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Old 03-23-2009, 03:24 PM   #265
C. David Henderson
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Right below where it says "waiver," I think.
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Old 03-23-2009, 04:55 PM   #266
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Since we've now drifted the thread into the animal kingdom, I guess it's okay for me to mention that I have highly trained killer circus ponies for sale.
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Old 03-23-2009, 05:22 PM   #267
Guilty Spark
 
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Gotta hate those thread drifts.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 03-23-2009, 05:53 PM   #268
Mark Freeman
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Since we've now drifted the thread into the animal kingdom, I guess it's okay for me to mention that I have highly trained killer circus ponies for sale.
Ah, but Mary, who trained them?

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 03-23-2009, 08:51 PM   #269
C. David Henderson
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Must resist impulse to drift further....

I find it odd to think of Greco-Roman wrestling in terms of ground work, since the major differences between it and freestyle wrestling appear to revolve around attacks below the waist, not pinning technique.

But it seems like an invitation to an endless argument to try and rank different martial arts in terms of their effectiveness in particular situations as much as globally. Not only is it difficult to meaningfully discuss the efficacy of any given art apart from the skill and ability of the given practitioner, given two candidates for any art in any particular context -- say Brazilian Jujutsu or Greco-Roman Wrestling -- the resulting debate tends to resemble a Rorschach slam-fest more than a dialogue.

And that's just the kind of opening the Dim Mak gecko's wait for. 'Dooh.
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Old 03-26-2009, 03:32 PM   #270
Kevin Karr
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

In regards to the OP, I only have this to say about that:

SHU HA RI

Contemplate this.

In re Aikido:

"I believe that O-Sensei was more martial and more spiritual than most people understand." [emphasis added]

First Doshu

Contemplate this.

Last edited by Kevin Karr : 03-26-2009 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 12-17-2010, 02:06 PM   #271
Lodro
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

you should have step behind him, that's a classic Aikido move, and it works
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Old 12-17-2010, 02:23 PM   #272
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Keith Miklas wrote: View Post
A friend of mine boxed for the army. I've been studying Aikido for about a month and so I asked him to friendly-spar for a couple of minutes to show him what I'd learned.

Basically, I got owned. I never came close to blending with his jabs. I finally had to tell him to slow his attacks down, so that I could demonstrate Ikkyo and Sankyo.

His comments:
1. It's not possible to catch/blend with his punches.
2. He's going to throw a combination, so even if I try I'm probably going to get hit (this, too, he demonstrated with a gentle right to my floating rib when I tried for a sankyo).
3. He would never over-extend himself with a "clean attack" like we use in class.
4. All this has been settled with the Gracies in Brazilian Ju Jitsu. Back in the '70's they invited people from all different schools to come down and fight it out. What "came out in the wash" was these three positions, and most effective related styles:
a. STANDING SEPARATE: boxing; kick-boxing
b. GRAPPLING: Muy-Thai; Wrestling
c. GROUND: Wrestling; Ju Jitsu

In sum, I felt helpless and defenseless against his skills.
I wonder why.....
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Old 12-17-2010, 02:46 PM   #273
Hellis
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I wonder why.....
Wonder why ??
Because he didn't step behind him when he wasn't looking

Henry

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Old 12-17-2010, 09:37 PM   #274
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Wonder why ??
Because he didn't step behind him when he wasn't looking

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
Tsk tsk....... ushiro ate... One of my favourites.....
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Old 12-18-2010, 08:33 PM   #275
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote: View Post
As for catching punches and knives as 'the norm' that's crazy.
I don't know if it's a yoshinkan thing but from day one my instructor repeated over and over you won't catch someone throwing a punch a you and you wont catch a knife coming towards you.
Stumbled on this thread and though I'd echo (one more piece of anecdotal evidence) as a Yoshinkan student, I've been told a couple of times the same thing, trying to specifically catch the business end of strike is not wise.

I have been educated that any part of the striking forearm is much easier to make contact with, and usually if you follow it (slide) down there is a wrist attached to it.
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