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Old 03-06-2009, 12:19 PM   #226
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Or you can use the clinch to negate his skills and off balance him and take him down and walk away...or submit him as you see fit.

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Old 03-06-2009, 01:51 PM   #227
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Or you can use the clinch to negate his skills and off balance him and take him down and walk away...or submit him as you see fit.
Sorry, MMA d00d, but the verb "to submit" does not take a direct object.
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Old 03-06-2009, 02:05 PM   #228
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Actually it does. It is idiomatic. And this is the type of passive aggressiveness that I often refer to.

Last edited by Cyrijl : 03-06-2009 at 02:07 PM.

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Old 03-06-2009, 02:31 PM   #229
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

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Joseph Connolly wrote: View Post
Actually it does. It is idiomatic. And this is the type of passive aggressiveness that I often refer to.
Not really relevant to the thread but I used to get a kick out of martial artists describing themselves as passive-aggressive.
I found it funny because they would assume that it's a positive thing in so much that they considered it being a peaceful passive relaxed and calm type of person but ready to 'turn it on' and fight when they need to. Quiet warripr type stuff.
IMO an actual "passive-aggressive" personality is anything but desirable.

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Old 03-06-2009, 03:11 PM   #230
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote: View Post
Actually it does. It is idiomatic. And this is the type of passive aggressiveness that I often refer to.
If so, you don't know the definition of the term. And sheesh almighty on people unilaterally declaring their own idioms.
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Old 03-06-2009, 03:39 PM   #231
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

It would hardly be by myself by declaring it idiomatic when we regularly use the term "He won by submission." The phrase is means he submitted his opponent, not he submitted to his opponent, nor does it mean he won by his opponents submission. The phrase is meant to indicate that he in some way forced the concession, there is emphasis on the action as opposed to the passivity usually applied to submission. As such you "submit your opponent" with an arm bar. This is different than he won by his opponent submitting. The attack itself, whether a joint lock or choke is referred to as a submission. When you apply a submission technique, you are not giving concession to your opponent.

Sheesh right back at ya.

Oh yeah and I geuss my advanced degrees in philosophy and linguistics don't count for anything since I train (in) MMA.

Last edited by Cyrijl : 03-06-2009 at 03:48 PM.

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Old 03-06-2009, 03:53 PM   #232
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Thanks, I learn something new everyday.

but I'm just a dumb infantryman in the Army if that counts for anything.

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Old 03-06-2009, 04:07 PM   #233
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

I don't want to derail any further. So Kevin, PM incoming.

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Old 03-07-2009, 05:10 PM   #234
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote: View Post
Oh yeah and I geuss my advanced degrees in philosophy and linguistics don't count for anything since I train (in) MMA.
I'm not disparaging your advanced degrees in the least (and my comment was tongue in cheek if the emoticon didn't make it blatantly obvious). But ya know...I knew an English major in college who claimed her field of study as authority when she declared that "He gave the book to John and I" was grammatically correct. "'...to John and me'," I said, "Object of a preposition." "What do you know," she sniffed, "You're majoring in computer science!" Heh. Some of us great unwashed got sentence diagramming knocked into our heads, in public school no less.
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Old 03-07-2009, 08:32 PM   #235
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

As odd as it may seem, english majors are generally the worst grammarians.

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Old 03-07-2009, 09:27 PM   #236
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post

but I'm just a dumb infantryman in the Army if that counts for anything.
Is all the talk of idiomatic's, advanced degrees & diagramming making you nervous too?

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Old 03-07-2009, 10:18 PM   #237
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

My wife received an email from her english prof. He has a PHD and wrote "Don't nobody worry, the test will be postponed until next week."

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 03-08-2009, 08:09 AM   #238
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

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Is all the talk of idiomatic's, advanced degrees & diagramming making you nervous too?
Makes me feel like adding iridium paint on the front site post of my M4, just to be different and for something to do.

Or maybe I'll just go read FM 7-8 cause it's been a while and I am getting rusty.

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Old 03-08-2009, 02:19 PM   #239
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

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Don't be shy though Jerry, lets hear some of your combat experiences.
"undoubtedly more than you" Okay I'll buy that.
Iraq, Afghanistan, South America?
It might help some of us see the light. What experiences are you talking about can you give us some examples?
I'm currently serving my final years as a Provost Marshal (MP) in Japan. I've served in Iraq and GTMO doing a similar jobs. Soon I'll be working as a prison guard in Fresno, CA. Outside of that you'll have to buy me some beers after some hard work at the dojo to hear some specifics.

I suppose I was a bit harsh. Its not that aikido is completely ineffective, its just that its by far the least effective MA ever developed imo. It actually makes naturally tough people worse fighters. I and many others would have been far better off never thinking they could catch punches/shanks/etc. into wristlocks or fancy throws. (as I did after 6 years of study).

If it works for you, I think it has to do with your natural attributes. For me and MOST others, i'll just inflate your ego into thinking you can do things you can not.
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Old 03-08-2009, 04:01 PM   #240
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
I suppose I was a bit harsh. Its not that aikido is completely ineffective, its just that its by far the least effective MA ever developed imo. It actually makes naturally tough people worse fighters. I and many others would have been far better off never thinking they could catch punches/shanks/etc. into wristlocks or fancy throws. (as I did after 6 years of study).
Okay, so if it is not completely ineffective, what is it that you feel it is that it does that is effective, or "partially effective"?

It makes naturally tough people worse fighters? Can you qualify exactly what you mean by that? I couldn't even begin to form such a conclusion at all. Not even sure how you'd go and test such a hypothesis.

Okay, all that aside, I don't think you'd find that the endstate or the purpose of Aikido was really do develop "effective fighters". Although I'd argue that aikido should be practiced in such a way that we don't forget the roots of what it is that we are doing, that is, an art based on a form of jiu jitsu.

So, you could also draw the conclusion that aikido makes natuarlly tough people worse yogini, plummers, weight lifters or whatever else you wanted to insert. It may or may not be true though as for every plummer that you pointed to that was a bad plummer it may be that he is bad because he didn't pay attention well in plumming school or maybe aikido actually made him better at his job because the physical practice made it easy for him to move underneath tight sink areas!

For me, aikido definitely made me a better fighter. It was apparent to me when I got involved with the Army Combatives Program and finally BJJ and had a background of about 8 or 9 years in Aikido at the time. I naturally picked up on things faster than many and actually understood space, distance, timing, posture and all the other things we learn in aikido as well.

LOL, I did have to learn that you could not fight with the paradigm of aikido as the timing of non-resistance was much different than what I had been used to. It only took catching a few punches in the head to lean I was going to have to stop trying to do nikkyo before I dealt with contolling the mass of my opponent!

However, I feel that lesson was applicable to aikido as well, and going back to aikido I have a better appreciation for how to do aikido "more correctly" than before.

Sure, I believe that many out there would do much better in developing a sound foundation in arts such as say Judo or BJJ before coming to aikido as it really provides a wonderful base in many things that we don't really touch upon in aikido.

And sure, there are many out there that are deluded into thinking that what they are doing in is making them lethal (tm). However, there are many, many more that simply do not care and understand their limits. (they don't need a savior).

The first time I went into my Aikido dojo it was very clear to me that Aikido was not about developing me into a lethal killing machine. The rules and ettiquette posted by Saotome Sensei was very clear about why we were there. So, anyone that developed that inflated ego in our dojo did it entirely of their own doing.

It was a huge mind screw for me when I got exposed to the Army Combatives Program though as I DID develop my own self preception of myself being a much better fighter than I actually was (ego). Sounds like you may have had similar experience.

It took me a while to evaluate my training and figure out where Aikido helped me and where it did not. I have come to peace with that and happily practice aikido today in my own way, which btw, is perfectly accepted within my dojo. Ironically my way, is also the way that it is and always has been expected to be performed! It just took me a while and some different experiences to work through it! I think I am a better aikidoka now than I was 5 years ago, and I think I have a better grasp of what the founder wanted us to learn, and I am excited to practice and share it with others.

Each of us has different goals and objectives martially. I personally go to four different dojos and groups that do not interact with each other as they are all over town (Wash DC), and range from BJJ, Judo, and AIkido. Each dojo has a personality and attracts different types of people to the various arts.

My BJJ dojo would not be something that many of our aikidoka would feel comfortable with and vice versa. Nothing wrong with that. Each person is comfortable with different things and must be brought along in different ways through martial methodologies. Each of us is wired differently.

I have seen Soldiers and Marines walk into our Aikido dojo, the majority of them don't last cause it don't feel comfortable to them they way they have to let go of things to do it. These same guys will go to a BJJ dojo and feel at home cause they like the feel and the fight.

Guess what, I am trying to teach them the exact same things in both dojos! relax, move, timing, position, breathing.

There is no difference in what we are trying to get them to do at the base level.

They will learn to fight faster in BJJ certainly as the methodology imparts some good basic skills. However, it has been my experiences that they will not master the subtle lessons of aikido that are necessary to be a black belt in BJJ and move past that first stripe into their 30s and 40s and 50s until they pick up on the "aiki" stuff that is intrinsic in BJJ.

Guys like Roy Dean out there are doing both and that is what I plan to do as well.

I think you are looking at things to simplistic to be honest.

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Old 03-09-2009, 10:43 AM   #241
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Jerry Silverman wrote: View Post
I suppose I was a bit harsh. Its not that aikido is completely ineffective, its just that its by far the least effective MA ever developed imo. It actually makes naturally tough people worse fighters. I and many others would have been far better off never thinking they could catch punches/shanks/etc. into wristlocks or fancy throws. (as I did after 6 years of study).

If it works for you, I think it has to do with your natural attributes. For me and MOST others, i'll just inflate your ego into thinking you can do things you can not.
You make some very sweeping statements there Jerry, however, if you see aikido only as a route to becoming a better fighter then perhaps I can see where you are coming from.

6 years is not a massive amount of time given to any art. Personally after 6 years of aikido study I was only just starting to have confidence in the method have any effective use if I needed it outside of the dojo. That may have been due to the fact that my training was in one of the 'softer' schools of aikido. A further 10 years of practice has given me much more confidence that should the need arise I would be better equipped to deal with the situation. On the 2 occasions that it might have been neccessary I managed to use words and intent to avoid having to test the physical. If I am furtunate I wont ever have to find out.

Also the skill of ones teacher has some part to play in all of this. 6 years with a mediocre teacher may well give you very little in the way of anything, including how to perform good aikido. If an aikidoka can't move and apply with a unified mind/body he/she certainly can't teach that skill to a student.

If you want a quick route to being an effective fighter then aikido is almost certainly not the right way to go. But that doesn't make aikido ineffective, only your use of it.

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 03-09-2009, 02:26 PM   #242
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

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Jerry Silverman wrote: View Post
I'm currently serving my final years as a Provost Marshal (MP) in Japan. I've served in Iraq and GTMO doing a similar jobs. Soon I'll be working as a prison guard in Fresno, CA. Outside of that you'll have to buy me some beers after some hard work at the dojo to hear some specifics.

I suppose I was a bit harsh. Its not that aikido is completely ineffective, its just that its by far the least effective MA ever developed imo. It actually makes naturally tough people worse fighters. I and many others would have been far better off never thinking they could catch punches/shanks/etc. into wristlocks or fancy throws. (as I did after 6 years of study).

If it works for you, I think it has to do with your natural attributes. For me and MOST others, i'll just inflate your ego into thinking you can do things you can not.
6 years....Nuff said.... There are a number of LEO's on this board who use Aikido OTJ...

never heard of any Aikido that practices catching punches or knives as (as Kevin loves to say) an "endpoint"...In fact I have never heard of any Martial Art that emphasizes such....However I only have 40+ years in the Martial Arts and I am still learning.

As for the rest of your post....Well...It stands on it's own.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 03-09-2009 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 03-09-2009, 02:42 PM   #243
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
6 years....Nuff said.... There are a number of LEO's on this board who use Aikido OTJ...

never heard of any Aikido that practices catching punches or knives as (as Kevin loves to say) an "endpoint"...In fact I have never heard of any Martial Art that emphasizes such....However I only have 40+ years in the Martial Arts and I am still learning.

As for the rest of your post....Well...It stands on it's own.

William Hazen
I find that, most often when people are telling you at length about how Aikido is weak and doesn't work, it is quite clear from their description of the art that they had only the most rudimentary exposure to it.

As Ikeda Sensei always said, "It isn't Aikido that doesn't work... it's YOUR Aikido that doesn't work."

George S. Ledyard
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Old 03-09-2009, 03:49 PM   #244
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Aikido does not lend itself towards "friendly sparring" against other arts. The attackers needs to commit to his attack for Aikido to be effective. A boxer does not over commit, they are always balanced and looking to strike even after a missed attack.

Aikido matches up well against a "killing blow" type of attacks. A knife stab, a hay maker or someone swinging a baseball bat. Not a fight with all sorts of rules. Boxing is a sport with rules, much like sparring. No doubt your friend beat you in that venue.

I bet that if you gave him a quick kick to the junk he would go down and you would win. The problem is that you were not in a real fight.
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Old 03-09-2009, 05:06 PM   #245
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Jerry Silverman wrote: View Post
I and many others would have been far better off never thinking they could catch punches/shanks/etc. into wristlocks or fancy throws. (as I did after 6 years of study).
Six years? I'd have shaken you out of trying to catch punches in as many minutes, as would any remotely competant Aikidoka.
Any more Aikido cliches? Perhaps you'd like to remind us that no-one attacks by running at you with their hands out?
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Old 03-09-2009, 05:36 PM   #246
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

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Kristian Fraser wrote: View Post
Aikido does not lend itself towards "friendly sparring" against other arts. The attackers needs to commit to his attack for Aikido to be effective. A boxer does not over commit, they are always balanced and looking to strike even after a missed attack.

Aikido matches up well against a "killing blow" type of attacks. A knife stab, a hay maker or someone swinging a baseball bat. Not a fight with all sorts of rules. Boxing is a sport with rules, much like sparring. No doubt your friend beat you in that venue.

I bet that if you gave him a quick kick to the junk he would go down and you would win. The problem is that you were not in a real fight.
Hey Kristan!

I completely understand what you are saying about committed attacks.

However, I think it is all a matter of definition and perspective and maybe a little semantics.

"Aikido" will work with whatever attack is presented. (I actually hate to say "aikido will work" as it really doesn't DO anything as people do and aikido is only a methodology)

Anyway, it does "work" in the sense that if we are skilled at what we do we learn to recognize effective attacks and ineffective ones.

A big part of the study of aikido is learning the concept of Mushin and Ma'ai.

Ma'ai is the timing/space/distance in the situation. WIth the right amount of experience it is hoped that we can appropriately move and respond to attacks that are presented.

What I see alot, (and did, and still do!) is that we want so bad to "do aikido" that we reach out, grab, pull, push, and any number of things. Everything but affect the core, center of the person while most likely upsetting our own. You see this alot in beginners for sure!

The instructor showed them how to do a technique, now they will do it...it becomes something that our perceptions tells us we must DO, vice walking the fine line between doing, guiding, suggestion, leading or whatever languaging you want to call it.

Yes, in a sense it requires a committed attack. It does not have to be over comitted, which I think is the perception alot in aikido.

UFC style punches are VERY comitted. It is just that the guy throwing it has enough skill to comitt just enough resources necessary to do what he wants to do. Sucks to be you if you don't have an appropriate response!

Same concepts apply, it is just that your window is very narrow for being able to do much. Hence why we slow down greatly in aikido to allow for practice to happen.

Unfortunately it gets all screwed up when someone studying at that speed for months (or even years) suddenly decides to take the training paradigm he/she adopted and go full on with someone that has never studied aikido and/or does not really care that you have!

The speed/timing/distance is all messed up and you simply probably have not developed ways to appropriately deal with it.

Clinching is about as aiki as anything you do. It is irimi nage just applied at a different range. Clinching can be strong or it can be leading, guiding, blending as well.

Clinching is necessary, as you now, cause space is taking away from you and it is a protective position/posture.

Anyway, for some reason, we ignore this concept in aikido, not sure why it seems to be a bad word...probably because people equate it with fighting or MMA.

Anyway, I am saying this not to promote clinching, but only to point out that it is a response that simply accounts for the level of speed, timing, distance, and comittment of uke. Once you achieve it, you can off balance (irimi) and then throw, takedown, or strike uke as the case may be.

It does not requrie your opponent to be OVER Committed. He can stay on his center while you take his center.

It is also within the parameters of aikido to disengage and simply avoid or back up as well hoping that your opponent will indeed over committ. I do this especially with inexperienced fighters...it is a better strategy alot of times other than clinching.

Anyway, there are two extremes...close in (engaging) and far way (disengaging). Both are good and within our parameters and abilities. Both do not require us to respond in a disconnected way and "catch" punches, nikkyos, or sankyos.

I have converted a few boxers over to BJJ. I do it by clinching they hate it, they stay there waiting for the ref to break up, so they don't know how to get out of it. AND they can't hit you well that close. I ride them down, knee on them and strike and disengage....rinse, wash, repeat!

Hopefully I never get caught cold with a punch!

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Old 03-10-2009, 07:28 AM   #247
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Kristian Fraser wrote: View Post
Aikido does not lend itself towards "friendly sparring" against other arts. The attackers needs to commit to his attack for Aikido to be effective. A boxer does not over commit, they are always balanced and looking to strike even after a missed attack.

Aikido matches up well against a "killing blow" type of attacks. A knife stab, a hay maker or someone swinging a baseball bat. Not a fight with all sorts of rules. Boxing is a sport with rules, much like sparring. No doubt your friend beat you in that venue.

I bet that if you gave him a quick kick to the junk he would go down and you would win. The problem is that you were not in a real fight.
Hello kristian

Don't you thing you can use kokyu as "friendly sparing". There is a fair amount of kokuy technique that either is or could be used as tuned down version of technique.
Uke can attack properly; yes he will have to go with flow once the technique is started but equally, you can judge if you had created the opportunity to develop you technique safely.
not really geared up for competition but enough for friendly pratice)

I would not describe it as a matter of commitment, in 15th century german wrestling they have zu lauffen ringen (running wrestling) and it is very close to "fluffy" aikido.
Basically they made the difference between staring close or within the range and stepping into the range. Zu laufen ringen is really wrestling in movement.

Anybody that practice as striking art will not over-commit, because you not only expose yourself to a one-time void-counter but as well your own body get in the way if you try to parry, deflect or move. I mean, we even do that with out weapon; you do not over extend yourself when you cut with the bokken.
But there is a difference between someone waiting to snipe at you and someone coming at you.
If you opponent is moving a deflection, redirection will upset his stability, even if he is not over committed (I am not good enough to use that reliably).
If he is waiting to snipe his base is very solid and deflection/redirection are not going to be enough.

Usually people who practice, symmetrical engagement (flat ground, 1v1 same weapon) tend to favour the use of the stable base. Hence they will usually creep or start at a given distance. (Usually just outside the range of the safe utilisation of longest weapon)

If I told you that I was going to use a tashi/longsword, using only thrust and moving only in a linear fashion when fencing against a foil or epee modern fencer. You would say that I am totally bonkers. Accepting to fight a boxer according to his paradigm is exactly as bonkers.
Amazingly enough, boxers have developed the best practice for they do.

Basically starting at a boxing distance, (I still do it sometimes) and hoping that you will be able to move faster than he can punch is a tad optimistic, unless you are a vampire, or than much quicker that it does not make a difference what you do.

Since 17 century we know that the time of the hand is the fastest of the True Time.
As well we know that moving you foot//feet and or body before you hands are in front is a false time and you will always loses to someone using a true time.

If you start from a boxing distance, a boxer is very likely to get you if you try to grab his jab or counter you when try to move on the side. To make it worse boxer uses jab as a set up/ranging and to prevent you to spill on their ura side.

Kevin used the clinch as an example, but French boxing/MT slip-kick even 17th-18th English pugilism (at that time you still could parry) will throw a boxer off. A wedge block and a cross block from MT can be a good option as well.
Or instead of trying to creep up or starting at boxing range, start further back and step in with yokomen strike or punch from your inside (or swap foot and use the yokomen to change "guard" and lead with the left). To either force him to engage or creating a line you can enter on (by you moving and/or using his defensive movement).

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Old 03-10-2009, 08:53 AM   #248
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Kristian Fraser wrote: View Post
Aikido does not lend itself towards "friendly sparring" against other arts. The attackers needs to commit to his attack for Aikido to be effective. A boxer does not over commit, they are always balanced and looking to strike even after a missed attack.

Aikido matches up well against a "killing blow" type of attacks. A knife stab, a hay maker or someone swinging a baseball bat. Not a fight with all sorts of rules. Boxing is a sport with rules, much like sparring. No doubt your friend beat you in that venue.

I bet that if you gave him a quick kick to the junk he would go down and you would win. The problem is that you were not in a real fight.
I kind of equate this to saying "Aikido doesn't work against guys trained properly in how to fight unarmed".

Being as I know this to not be true I can not agree. Just last night I used aikido in a bjj match to take down and subdue my attacker. I highly doubt anyone watching me even knew it was aikido, however the setup, idea, and method was never taught to me by my bjj instructor and based off somethings I saw a senior student at my old aikido school do once.

To me good aikido means you have to make the openings, your attacker (if he is any good) is not going to make them for you. Honestly I was pleasantly surprised what I did actually worked with any reliability. Sure it required heavy modification and a lot of trial and error of getting my face smashed in. But it did eventually work. And of course there were a lot easier and safer methods of doing the same task...but I digress from my point.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:04 PM   #249
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote: View Post
Oh yeah and I guss my advanced degrees in philosophy and linguistics don't count for anything since I train (in) MMA.
One of my pet hates about American English is "I train (insert art)"
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:33 PM   #250
Guilty Spark
 
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Location: Flordia
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
One of my pet hates about American English is "I train (insert art)"
There's no hate in Aikido baby! Aikido is loooooove.

Learn to train looooove man.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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