Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-05-2009, 11:32 AM   #1
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
What's It Mean? (Doka of the Day)

opinions of what he said/meant: Osensei's daily sayings:

"Deep in the glow of Izu
Which shines in the Heavens above,
There is the reverberating sound
Of the King of the Eight Powers." - Morihei Ueshiba



What's it mean?

Isn't Izu a drink?

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2009, 11:39 AM   #2
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: What's It Mean? (Doka of the Day)

No clue for most of it...

I believe Izu is a Kami...

Quote:
Of the King of the Eight Powers."
Look up statements about the eight powers, the six direction harmonies, things of that sort. Eight tends to be used a lot in Japanese arts...eight direction cuts, etc. Ueshiba mentions the eight powers in other doka / writings I believe. I've come to think of it as code word for the internal aspects of the art. Others could give a better and more concrete breakdown. Toss Mike Sigman a line...he might reel you in...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2009, 11:42 AM   #3
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 624
United_States
Offline
Re: What's It Mean? (Doka of the Day)

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
opinions of what he said/meant: Osensei's daily sayings:

"Deep in the glow of Izu
Which shines in the Heavens above,
There is the reverberating sound
Of the King of the Eight Powers." - Morihei Ueshiba

What's it mean?
You have many questions; excellent beginner's mind. Time and training will provide the answers although sometimes the answer is there isn't one. Enjoy being in the question.

Ron

Last edited by RonRagusa : 01-05-2009 at 11:45 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2009, 04:41 PM   #4
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,403
United_States
Offline
Re: What's It Mean? (Doka of the Day)

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
opinions of what he said/meant: Osensei's daily sayings:

"Deep in the glow of Izu
Which shines in the Heavens above,
There is the reverberating sound
Of the King of the Eight Powers." - Morihei Ueshiba

What's it mean?

Isn't Izu a drink?
Izu is the masculine corrective or rule-making principle identified by O Sensei's understanding of Shinto with the universal Deity, equivalent to the Oomoto -- the "Great Origin."

Reverberation is resonance, a special quality of interacting vibration resulting in compounding interference. It is often often spoken of elsewhere in the Doka as yamabiko -- the "mountain echo," It is spoken of here as the voice of the King of the Eight Powers (you can look those up) but they are four pairs of opposed cyclic mutations of physical (and metaphysical) substance. (hachiriki) these are intimately related to the shikon "four souls" and the sangen "three roots or origins" and the "ichirei" One spirit.

The King of the Eight Powers is a special kami called Izunome, ( different from Izu) who is a kami formed to purify the divine principles from accumulated filth or excesses of the physical realm. O Sensei believed that Izunome had inspired and informed his building of Aikido. Aikido is intended as a practice in misogi-no-gyo or ritual of purification within which the kami Izunome performs its task.

That task is essentially in bringing all things to their proper center. Too fluid, it solidifies; too solid, it liquefies; too divided, it unifies, too monolithic, it divides; too static, it motivates, too mobile, it stills; too expansive, it contracts, too cramped and it expands. (OK, now you don't have to look 'em up)

For westerners, Kami are too soon called "gods," when the word merely means "exalted, one above (others)." All kami (save the three Kami of Creation) are bound to their own mono, a thing, place, event or particular circumstance of manifestation. The other three are active in the Creation, respectively of the center of heaven and of all seen and all unseen things, and after which are deemed "hidden kami" -- kami not bound to any apparent mono.

Since at least the eighteenth centuryShinto has wrestled with an inherent tendency to devolve the many various levels of kami into an essentially hierarchical transcendent monotheism implied by the its creation myth . Most kami actually fit better with the Western tradition of angels or non personified elemental powers than with the polytheism of gods in the Greek or Egyptian modes.

Exalted humans are also called kami, more akin to saints in our usage and useful and beneficent intercessors (and allowing also for malevolent vengeful spirits, as the case may be) but certainly not confused with beings of much more plainly supernatural power. The same blurring of lines in the usage of the term kami is seen in the traditional image of St. Michael, who is so named a "saint" (a word that has acquried specific connotations but began merely being an adjective meaning "holy") and yet St. Michael is indisputably not an exalted human but an angel, a personified non-material spirit. O Sensei even specifically identifies Izunome' task with St. Michaels' task in driving the demons (fallen angels) out of heaven in the Book of Daniel.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 01-05-2009 at 04:44 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 07:20 AM   #5
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: What's It Mean? (Doka of the Day)

Thanks Eric! Very lucid...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 01:09 PM   #6
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: What's It Mean? (Doka of the Day)

Enlightement or delusion?
Who is to say which person has which?
Like the evening moon they appear and fade.
Not one knows exactly when.

- Morihei Ueshiba

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 02:30 PM   #7
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,812
Offline
Re: What's It Mean? (Doka of the Day)

Thanks, Erick, for your post above. Interesting stuff.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 05:44 PM   #8
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: What's It Mean? (Doka of the Day)

yes, quite nice ,so Izu, the Great Originator, ( who we call God) who was a Shinto god, who shines in the Heaven above, reverberates to Izunome, The King of the Eight Powers, what was the basis for Aikido.

Wow, so Osensei was able to use far less words....

Today's is much simpler...... far easier to predict the fading of the evening moon( not as to orbit, which is finite, but as to the clouds covering it) than the enlightenment or delusion of folks..wonder if he said anything about a Lunar eclipse.

Last edited by GeneC : 01-06-2009 at 05:48 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 10:10 PM   #9
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,403
United_States
Offline
Re: What's It Mean? (Doka of the Day)

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Wow, so Osensei was able to use far less words....
You asked what it meant. Some meaning is obscure, some is not. Some people are like that, too.

井の中の蛙大海を知らず。


Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2009, 04:51 PM   #10
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: What's It Mean? (Doka of the Day)

To the Technique of Tsurugi,
Neither brush nor word of mouth can render due service.
Saying nothing you must go forth
And so must you know (satori).

- Morihei Ueshiba

To me, nothing any of us can do would do Tsurugi ( the art of the broadsword) any justice, but we must go forth anyway, not speak (of it) and do the best we can and obtain sudden enlightenment and a state of consciousness attained by intuitive illumination representing the spiritual goal of Zen Buddhism.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2009, 04:58 PM   #11
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: What's It Mean? (Doka of the Day)

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
You asked what it meant. Some meaning is obscure, some is not. Some people are like that, too.
Asking doesn't give license. Imo, adding words only obscure it's meaning. The real test is to use the least words to mean the most.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2009, 05:17 PM   #12
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,403
United_States
Offline
Re: What's It Mean? (Doka of the Day)

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
To the Technique of Tsurugi,
Neither brush nor word of mouth can render due service.
Saying nothing you must go forth
And so must you know (satori).

- Morihei Ueshiba

To me, nothing any of us can do would do Tsurugi ( the art of the broadsword) any justice, but we must go forth anyway, not speak (of it) and do the best we can and obtain sudden enlightenment and a state of consciousness attained by intuitive illumination representing the spiritual goal of Zen Buddhism.
Again we must look to Kojiki. Tsurugi refers here in context to the the Kusanagi ("grass-cutter") sword (one of the imperial regalia), taken from the tail of the demon serpent by the trickster kami Susanoo. Kusanagi is a double-edged tsurugi.

A massive fire was set on the plain of tall grass against Susanoo. Susanoo used Kusanagi, not to try in vain to directly defeat this irresistible and impenetrable attack directed at him (the fire), but simply to cut down the grass in front of him to eliminate its ability to reach him.

He did this, of course, because of the tallness of the grass, where those looking from a safe distance could merely see him dancing crazily about in circles, and could not see or understand what in the world he might be doing. The onlookers thus expected him merely to run away in humiliating defeat or to die in vain fighting an undefeatable foe. Instead, they saw him dancing madly around, the fire continued on seemingly unaffected and yet he was untouched.

They could say nothing to anyone else about what had happened unless they were willing to go forth with him -- under the falling blade, in the face of the raging fire.

Delusion or enlightenment -- who is to say?

Last edited by Erick Mead : 01-07-2009 at 05:24 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2009, 05:22 PM   #13
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,403
United_States
Offline
Re: What's It Mean? (Doka of the Day)

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Asking doesn't give license. Imo, adding words only obscure it's meaning. The real test is to use the least words to mean the most.
The world is not so simple, nor so reducible. Chaotic patterns are only disclosed by many, many iterations of the underlying algorithm. Until you repeat it to see the variations you cannot grasp its nature from the very simple exercise you do to produce those complex patterns. It is not reducible in its expression, though it is exceedingly compact in its operation. Stating the operation is trivial and says almost nothing about its full truth.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2009, 07:58 PM   #14
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 624
United_States
Offline
Re: What's It Mean? (Doka of the Day)

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
To the Technique of Tsurugi,
Neither brush nor word of mouth can render due service.
Saying nothing you must go forth
And so must you know (satori).

- Morihei Ueshiba
The blade cuts and knows not you know and do not cut.

Ron
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2009, 09:00 PM   #15
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: What's It Mean? (Doka of the Day)

Sorry, but I've been put on notice. This is my last chance, so let me use it to say this: Dare I say anything, or lose my life. Farewell, for surley this is alot more closed than ever imagined.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2009, 09:00 PM   #16
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 624
United_States
Offline
Re: What's It Mean? (Doka of the Day)

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
The real test is to use the least words to mean the most.
Cut.
Know.

Ron
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2009, 07:08 AM   #17
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: What's It Mean? (Doka of the Day)

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Sorry, but I've been put on notice. This is my last chance, so let me use it to say this: Dare I say anything, or lose my life. Farewell, for surley this is alot more closed than ever imagined.
No, it is very open here. To those who are open to it.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2009, 05:30 PM   #18
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,403
United_States
Offline
Re: What's It Mean? (Doka of the Day)

This is a good exercise so I will continue it.

Quote:
Bujutsu: The form and the spirit of the Kami
The parent of Izu and Mizu
So precious!

- Morihei Ueshiba
Izu, as indicated in a post before is the corrective principle of the divine in the world making it function properly, and Mizu is the female principle functioning in the world so as to save it from the accumulated consequences of its failure to function properly ( cleansing the "accumulated filth" in the Kojiki's image). Both are related here to to the Holy Parent (Oomoto -- the Great Origin). Izu and Mizu are symbolized in the "cross of Aiki" 十字 "juuji" which is both a physical and metaphysical concept in Aikido. Properly speaking, "Izunome," mentioned before as the kami with whom O Sensei believed himself possessed, is the conjoining of the two.

The trinity thus seen in the Oomoto-specific symbology is related directly by O Sensei elsewhere to the Kojiki's own Creator trinity of Ame no Mi-naka-nushi no Kami, (Lord of Heavenly Center) and Kami Musubi no Kami and Takami Musubi no Kami -- the aspects of this trinity that are responsible for producing, respectively, all things seen (mono) and unseen (kami).

Anyone who has a passing familiarity with the Christian Nicene Creed will note a similarity in this functional trinity -- and Izu and Mizu are related intimately with the origin and function of kotodama (word-spirit), and O Sensei himself related the source of kotodama directly to the Divine Logos (citing John 1:1, no less).

Before anyone thinks I have gone off the rails on the East-West parallels to Christian monotheism -- note that O Sensei made the explicit connection and please read carefully the long struggle with monotheistic thought within Shinto itself, long predating the advent of even Oomoto, back to the seventeenth century at least.

http://www2.kokugakuin.ac.jp/ijcc/wp...mi/sasaki.html
http://elib.doshisha.ac.jp/cgi-bin/r...2000040001.pdf

(and perhaps far longer depending on how much Christian-Japanese contact you might allow to have occurred in China in the 7th--9th centuries (when Kojiki was being written down, in Chinese script, and Kobo Daishi brought Shingon ("True Word"), to Japan from the T'ang capital, which had dynamic Christian and Buddhist communities that were even cautioned by the Chinese ritual authorities for too much "mixing" among the scholars of different disciplines. ).

If we take this parallel one step further and expressly see the trinitarian relationship laid out in O Sensei's mythology in its overt Christian form -- this Doka takes on another level of connection with the language of the Nicene Creed, of Exodus and of Pauline writing.

That places The Holy Parent, Lord of the Center of heaven -- identified with God the Father. "maker of heaven and earth, of all that is visible and invisible..."

Izu -- the "earthly producer" or Incarnate aspect of the Divine, the corrective principle, correcting something that had gone fundamentally wrong -- in the Logos of Christ Jesus, Savior and Redeemer ("through him all things were made.)

Mizu --the "heavenly producer" aspect -- working continually to repair the spiritual consequences of the things that had been wrong -- identified with the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete. ("the Lord, the giver of life.")

And we then find this to cap off this consideration of the Doka's reference to "Bujutsu" as the form and spirit of this Holy Parent:

Quote:
Exodus 15:1-4 ("Song of Moses") wrote:
I will sing to the LORD, for he has triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider he has thrown into the sea.

The LORD is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation; this is my God, and I will praise him, my father's God, and I will exalt him.

The LORD is a man of war; the LORD is his name.
...
Thy right hand, O LORD, glorious in power, thy right hand, O LORD, shatters the enemy.
For O Sensei to identify himself as being possessed by Izunome -- if this parallel holds -- is to say no less than that he has become possessed by Christ Jesus. And there is certainly a parallel for that also - and also relating to the cross image:
Quote:
Galatians2:19-20 wrote:
I have been crucified with Christ; yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me;
Some may look askance, but given the way he approached Oomoto, this seems very much the type of engagement with his thoughts that O Sensei might have wished to occur. The truth is larger than one culture -- and therefore may be expressed in any culture.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 01-14-2009 at 05:32 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2009, 06:56 AM   #19
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,652
United_States
Offline
Re: What's It Mean? (Doka of the Day)

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Sorry, but I've been put on notice. This is my last chance, so let me use it to say this: Dare I say anything, or lose my life.
Lose your life? It's a message board.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Mugendo Budogu - Official Aikikai Hakama now available!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Doka of the Day dps General 12 06-30-2006 06:28 AM
Meditations of the doka Jiawei Techniques 0 08-12-2005 04:40 AM
doka of the day translator? wendyrowe Language 19 06-28-2005 11:42 AM
Doka Suru General 9 01-10-2003 09:39 AM
Doka? Ta Kung General 2 06-08-2001 07:13 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:53 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate