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Old 12-24-2008, 12:55 PM   #1
Ellis Amdur
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How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

With the sometimes naive idea of aikido magically being able to resolve all conflict, particularly "soft" aikido, I find this statement by Toehi Koichi quite refreshing.

Tohei Koichi: http://www.toitsu.de/texte/tohei_en.htm

Quote:
You have taught Ki-Aikido to police, FBI, and Secret Service personnel. How did you teach them to calm down or restrain a dangerous person, or someone who is on drugs and out of control?
If a person is dangerous, on drugs and out of control, the only thing to do is forcibly arrest them. They are temporarily out of their mind, so it makes no sense to talk about respecting their human rights. If they are putting others at risk they must be restrained, and then dealt with after they return to their senses.

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Old 12-24-2008, 01:42 PM   #2
Janet Rosen
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

There you go, being realistic again! :-)

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 12-24-2008, 01:48 PM   #3
Aikibu
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

What amazing is that some folks don't find that obvious about Aikido's "methodology of conflict resolution"

Happy Holidays Ellis.

William Hazen
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Old 12-24-2008, 01:53 PM   #4
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
With the sometimes naive idea of aikido magically being able to resolve all conflict, particularly "soft" aikido, I find this statement by Toehi Koichi quite refreshing.

Tohei Koichi: http://www.toitsu.de/texte/tohei_en.htm
It goes without saying!! They or people under the "influence" certainly won't worry about your concerns!! That's certainly been my experience........

Tony

PS Merry Crimbo to everyone and lets hope for a much better New Year.....
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Old 12-25-2008, 07:27 PM   #5
mickeygelum
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

Mr Amdur,

I agree wholeheartedly, very refreshing. Thank you for posting this.

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 12-25-2008, 07:38 PM   #6
crbateman
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
I find this statement by Toehi Koichi quite refreshing.
So do I! Be well, Ellis...
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Old 12-25-2008, 08:49 PM   #7
Nathan Wallace
 
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

lol...its funny, you'd think it was common sense.

Northern Virginia Tenshinkai Aikido
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Old 12-26-2008, 07:05 AM   #8
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

It is still a martial art, isn't it?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 12-26-2008, 07:26 AM   #9
Mato-san
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

touch me.... put your fingers on me

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Old 12-26-2008, 07:35 AM   #10
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

My finger bleeds......bring it on....I know your god,,,, I submit....you cant take me.......just try....you cant take me

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Old 12-26-2008, 11:07 AM   #11
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

If it wasn't Tohei sensei who said it, and Ellis Amdur who quoted it, all the posts above mine would likely say something to the effect of, "No I think..", or "My teacher..", or "they must not be studying O-senseis Aikido", or "Saying that clearly means you don't have a grasp of Aikido" etc. etc.

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Old 12-26-2008, 11:41 AM   #12
mickeygelum
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

Quote:
If it wasn't Tohei sensei who said it, and Ellis Amdur who quoted it, all the posts above mine would likely say something to the effect of, "No I think..", or "My teacher..", or "they must not be studying O-senseis Aikido", or "Saying that clearly means you don't have a grasp of Aikido" etc. etc.
...Very true, Sir.

( I wonder how many are mumbling or thinking that still? )

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 12-26-2008, 01:34 PM   #13
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
If it wasn't Tohei sensei who said it, and Ellis Amdur who quoted it, all the posts above mine would likely say something to the effect of, "No I think..", or "My teacher..", or "they must not be studying O-senseis Aikido", or "Saying that clearly means you don't have a grasp of Aikido" etc. etc.
Maybe you're right, but I don't think that would necessarily be the case. It's hard to argue with highly respected positions of authority, but I think it also has a lot to do with how the topic is worded. I think many folks are a bit more free in offering counterpoints (which aren't necessarily contradictions, despite being taken that way by many) when your "average Joe" posts.
...At least, I think I tend to be one of those folks who is quick to talk about the peace and love side of Aikido when folks talk about the need for "martial-ness", but I also have a very firm sense of the violence of reality.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-26-2008, 05:50 PM   #14
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

Quote:
Mathew McDowell wrote: View Post
My finger bleeds......bring it on....I know your god,,,, I submit....you cant take me.......just try....you cant take me
Mato-san, what does this mean?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-26-2008, 06:47 PM   #15
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
With the sometimes naive idea of aikido magically being able to resolve all conflict, particularly "soft" aikido, I find this statement by Toehi Koichi quite refreshing.

Tohei Koichi: http://www.toitsu.de/texte/tohei_en.htm
I don't understand what is so refreshing about this. Tohei seems to be saying that you can't calm down a dangerous person, and that they need to be restrained. Ok, I'll buy that. I haven't heard of any Aikido that focuses on talking down or calming down someone vs. restraint. I don't know what you mean about "soft Aikido" . Isn't restraining someone even though it may be "gentler or softer" resolving the conflict? . He doesn't answer the question on how to restrain them, only using the word "forcibly", but I don't think he is talking about hurting people because of his earlier comments in the article regarding violence. I don't agree or completely understand what he meant about not respecting people's human rights. Even police must respect respect the rights of everyone they arrest as much as they can, don't they?

-John Matsushima

My blog on Japanese culture
http://onecorneroftheplanetinjapan.blogspot.jp/
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Old 12-27-2008, 03:43 AM   #16
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Mato-san, what does this mean?
I shouldn't worry about it ....... either too much sake or he's smacked the back of his head into the tatami too many times!!......
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Old 12-28-2008, 05:57 AM   #17
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
I don't understand what is so refreshing about this. Tohei seems to be saying that you can't calm down a dangerous person, and that they need to be restrained. Ok, I'll buy that. I haven't heard of any Aikido that focuses on talking down or calming down someone vs. restraint. I don't know what you mean about "soft Aikido" . Isn't restraining someone even though it may be "gentler or softer" resolving the conflict? . He doesn't answer the question on how to restrain them, only using the word "forcibly", but I don't think he is talking about hurting people because of his earlier comments in the article regarding violence. I don't agree or completely understand what he meant about not respecting people's human rights. Even police must respect respect the rights of everyone they arrest as much as they can, don't they?
When they can yes...... much depends on the onslaught of the "human" who perpetrates the violence....... I'm sure you must be aware of how "ugly" people can get when under the influence of mental disorder or "madness" or drugs, alcohol and so forth.....
It won't happen like you think its going to..... very unpredictable as your life could be in danger and using what force is necessary is necessary...... If someone has to go "down" I try to make sure its them...... ask questions later and live to tell the tale.....
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Old 12-28-2008, 09:49 AM   #18
Mato-san
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

Not sake but Asahi... my apologies..not the first time. But yeah the notorious beeraohlic Aikidioka. Sake and me don't dance

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Old 12-28-2008, 10:06 AM   #19
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

Beer aside, soft Aikido is nice.
If it don't work the application becomes frustrating, one you give up, two you muscle through it, 3 you feel and do it.
I guess it is a whole new thread, when do you do 1, 2 or 3?
Or do you continuously strive on 3?
I find myself continuously working on 3 and that is also frustrating

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Old 12-28-2008, 10:22 AM   #20
Mato-san
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

Apologize to the entire forum... just to keep the tread in tact, to much beer on the Bonenkai this year. Let the harmony flow

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 12-28-2008, 08:25 PM   #21
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
When they can yes...... much depends on the onslaught of the "human" who perpetrates the violence....... I'm sure you must be aware of how "ugly" people can get when under the influence of mental disorder or "madness" or drugs, alcohol and so forth.....
It won't happen like you think its going to..... very unpredictable as your life could be in danger and using what force is necessary is necessary...... If someone has to go "down" I try to make sure its them...... ask questions later and live to tell the tale.....
Like the great Hunter Thompson said (a man who was an authority on "altered" states): you can turn your back on a person, but never on a drug...I presume certain mental disorders are much the same thing.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-28-2008, 11:09 PM   #22
Buck
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

I know allot of people try to follow O'Sensei's philosophy and as a result of many things gravitate to one of the extremes. The soft Aikido end of the spectrum is being talked about here and isn't favored because of its seeming unrealistic view, and poor showing.

I want to throw a new spice into the soup, I think that the soft Aikido is the most difficult to achieve than the other extreme being hard Aikido. My criticism with the soft Aikido isn't the goal or if it is possible, effective, etc. it is those who really don't understand the soft end and are not good at it, but advocate publicly. Beside throwing in their own flavoring in the pot of soft Aikido. It is damaging to the idea and credibility of soft Aikido. Boy, does it also give the hard Aikido people ammo to attack the idea of soft Aikido.

I don't think soft Aikido is about soft people. O.K. then what is soft Aikido about, it is about the approach and application of the full use of skills applied effectively to a dangerous situation at hand. I think some people because of their meek nature feel Aikido should be practiced and applied meekly and passively like soft Aikido. By taking that route your abilities don't match up to the threat your are forced to face. As the ye ol' sayings go, your only as good as your training, and perfect practice makes perfect. Btw, as for the other extreme, hard Aikido, it suffers from the same conditions. No control, over aggressive, narrow perspectives, etc.

Everyone takes Aikido for different reasons, and not all of us will every have to use it on the street or as professionals. Bunches of people take Aikido for recreation, social, and spiritual reasons. I would say less take it for fighting. Even though many would agree O'Sensei didn't seem to be your typical meek and passive person. A person with a strong spirit, but not violent spirit. Maybe a person with a hot temper, but not a violent temper. Certainly, he wasn't Gandhi, I mean there are pictures of him where he is someone you wouldn't want to mess with. Despite those poses and moments of intense concentration, he wasn't a person who would injure or kill you if you angered him, as possibly done by those Japanese military officers document in WWII. I think that is what is the gauge we measure what violence by and what is peace when he speaks -based on his life experiences.

In a way soft Aikido is probably the most effective and refined Aikido, it is just that some people don't see it that way.

FWIW.

Last edited by Buck : 12-28-2008 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:11 AM   #23
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
With the sometimes naive idea of aikido magically being able to resolve all conflict, particularly "soft" aikido, I find this statement by Toehi Koichi quite refreshing.

Tohei Koichi: http://www.toitsu.de/texte/tohei_en.htm
Since the interview does not say "arrest using aikido forcibly," "forcibly arrest using aikido," "aikido is already sufficient to forcibly arrest," or even "forcibly arrest with techniques outside aikido," it would seem Ellis is reading K. Tohei's statement through hard lenses.

And where are these mythical aiki-bunnies with the "naive idea of aikido magically being able to resolve all conflict" anyway? And why do the "hard stylists" seem to tense up so in these forums thinking about them?

Quote:
The Same Article wrote:
The one essential thing I learned from Ueshiba Sensei was how to relax. He was always relaxed in the face of conflict, which is why his Aikido was so strong.
Ducking!

Last edited by Joe McParland : 12-29-2008 at 12:20 AM. Reason: comic effect :-)

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Old 12-29-2008, 03:02 PM   #24
C. David Henderson
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Like the great Hunter Thompson said (a man who was an authority on "altered" states): you can turn your back on a person, but never on a drug...I presume certain mental disorders are much the same thing.
In the summer of 1981, I took a bus from Salem, OR, where the State Hospital is located, to Portland, where I was living at the time.

A man got on the bus who clearly seemed schizophrenic, and decompensating. He muttered to himself constantly, and appeared apprehensive.

The bus was the "milk run," and so had multiple stops. At each stop, the man would come up to the door, mutter, and when the increasingly nervous bus driver asked him if he wanted out, you could almost see the wheels in his mind going, "No, don't get off now, it's a trick."

Eventually we pulled into the station in Portland. The man who I thought likely was a recently released hospital patient had grown more restless as the trip progressed, but thankfully he didn't act out.

When we were leaving the bus, he stopped at the door, and began to mutter. I couldn't help but think my fellow traveler was saying to himself, "Oh no; this was the trick all along." I thought -- Everywhere he goes, there he is, waiting for himself.

Hadn't thought of that in a long time.

DH
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Old 12-29-2008, 03:19 PM   #25
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution

Reminds me of a joke:

A man is siting on a semi-crowded city bus when a mumbling, alcohol soaked, bum gets on. The sitting man se's him and starts counting seats to estimate the odds of the drunk guy sitting next to him. He realizes the chances look 50/50, so he starts to pray,"God,please don't let him sit next to me. God, please don't let him sit ext to me"..and on..
The bum inches his way down the bus, mumbling,mumbling...
The sitting man prays more rapidly,Please,please,please.....

As the bum gets right to the man's seat he smiles,unloads his backpack off his shoulders, throws himself down in the seat next to him, and says clear as a bell with a huge smile, "God told me to sit here.".

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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