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Old 12-27-2008, 07:52 PM   #51
L. Camejo
 
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

It is said that God has placed obvious limitations on our intelligence, but none whatsoever on our stupidity.

Interesting thing about some of the stuff in the Art of Peace is that when your practice reaches a certain level of depth and understanding the gibberidge actually starts to make real and practical sense. Imho this may be seen by some as "secret" if one is unwilling to put in the time and effort in "correct" practice (i.e. not just showing up for class but actively engaing in deep study).

In that light the only secrets that exists are there due to our own ignorance of the subject imho.

Best.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 12-27-2008, 09:48 PM   #52
Buck
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

I often come across things like this. In industry/business there are many secrets. Once you are privy to those secrets you began to realize there are two types.

1. those of substantial value.
mostly things valued because they will make money that are kept secret so the competition will not get first stab at it on the market.

2. those that are not.
mostly a marketing ploy, to build interest in the company. Or for a company to get attention and validation in product or process, or company, as a way to build or gain interest into your product or company. Usually those secrets are less than impressive.

You have to determine I think the value of what is being kept secret. Secrets are information not pasted to everyone. But information that only exists by the keeper. That is, everything can be figured out. That really is true for Aikido.

The kicker is how we (those not a keeper of a secret) see and treat a secret. I think the secrets of Aikido are like math. When learning a different langauge upon hearing it for the first time is it like a secret language. But, as you learn the language, soon all its secrets are revealed.
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Old 12-29-2008, 03:31 PM   #53
GeneC
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
So what's an "efficient way of teaching" -- simply telling the students all the "secrets"? That might seem obvious at first glance, but then there's the fact that for teaching to take place, learning must take place as well -- and some things are not learned simply by receiving information. Teaching isn't like washing a car or building a chair; you can't simply reduce it to the fewest possible moves and call that "the most efficient way". A better analogy is gardening: I can choose a good site and I can prep the soil and I can plant the seed properly, but I'm not going to instantly have a 6' sunflower -- the plant has to do the growing.
Sure , we can use the "gardening anlalogy". I come from a long line of gardeners and my gardening has evolved to where I garden vertically- I grow beans around corn so the vines grow up the stalk and lettuce under tomatoes, which are under grape vines to maximize the sun/shade relation. I grow cucumber on a trellace in front of peppers so that they get morning sun, but be in the shade for the hot afternoon sun, etc. I don't think anyone expects a 6' sunflower plant instantly, but I do expect it to have a 2' head on it with edible seeds( that's the secret of Sunflowers). So we acknowledge that there are secrets in MA, but still, a secret is something not told to anyone. What's the point of that?

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-29-2008, 04:33 PM   #54
GeneC
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Furthermore, Back in the day MA was secretly taught to a select few, so IMO, that's where the "secrets of MA " came about. Just like the secrets of Magic, there are many secrets but they're no longer a secret once you know how it's done. There are some aspects of MA that seem magical or secretive, like the concept of using your Ki could be considered a "secret of MA".

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-29-2008, 07:49 PM   #55
mathewjgano
 
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
I don't think anyone expects a 6' sunflower plant instantly
Well, as an aside, sometimes one gets lucky and that first attempt just happens (remembering my dad's ~7' sunflowers). I don't think beginner's luck is luck...hence the call to nurture "beginner's mind." Sometimes "knowledge" obfuscates more than it reveals.

Quote:
So we acknowledge that there are secrets in MA, but still, a secret is something not told to anyone. What's the point of that?
I think the point is one of timing, mostly. The point made about "gibberish" language seems to apply well too. Another might be for fear of giving away cutting edge technology (weak pun intended) to potential competitors (aside: another potential down-side to competition), or overly-aggressive personalities. There are many reasons to keep something a secret; sometimes for good reasons; sometimes for bad; different situations dictate differently. I think there's also something to be said for making people work for it on their own.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-29-2008, 08:19 PM   #56
GeneC
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Well, as an aside, sometimes one gets lucky and that first attempt just happens (remembering my dad's ~7' sunflowers). I don't think beginner's luck is luck...
I was taught luck s the residue of hard work

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
I think the point is one of timing, mostly. The point made about "gibberish" language seems to apply well too.....
Well a secret is different than a puzzle, which simply separates the smart from otherwise.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-29-2008, 08:35 PM   #57
mathewjgano
 
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
I was taught luck s the residue of hard work
I like that axiom, but I know a lot of hard workers who have "bad luck."

Quote:
Well a secret is different than a puzzle...
That doesn't mean they're mutually exclusive...and I would argue you can't have a puzzle without some kind of associative secret(s). Once you know the secret of a puzzle, it's no longer a puzzle really.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-29-2008, 09:10 PM   #58
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
I don't think anyone expects a 6' sunflower plant instantly
Clarence, the point of the gardening analogy was that some processes happen in their own time and really can't be rushed, no matter how good your practices are. Growing a plant is one of those processes, learning a martial art is another. Mind you, there are roughly eighteen gazillion ways that you can screw them up, and there's no limit to how much you can slow them down...but there certainly is a limit to how much you can speed them up, and it's a limit that's reached very quickly. Therefore, while it's always good to strive for good practices, you can't expect to be able to endlessly improve them and thereby get to your goal faster. You've heard the old martial arts chestnut about the student who asked his teacher how long it would take him to master the sword, right? That's what I'm talkiing about.
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Old 12-29-2008, 09:37 PM   #59
GeneC
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I like that axiom, but I know a lot of hard workers who have "bad luck."
You mean the 'bad luck' was a direct result of said hard work? Well, there's the secret, hard work doesn't guarentee the 'worker' takes advantage of the 'good luck'.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
That doesn't mean they're mutually exclusive...and I would argue you can't have a puzzle without some kind of associative secret(s). Once you know the secret of a puzzle, it's no longer a puzzle really.
Well it doesn't mean they're mutually inclusive either. The only 'secret' of a puzzle is the answer, which isn't really a secret, as it's not intended to be kept, it's intention is to be revealed.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-29-2008, 09:40 PM   #60
GeneC
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Clarence, the point of the gardening analogy was that some processes happen in their own time and really can't be rushed, no matter how good your practices are. ....
My point is that it can be rushed. Some seeds are hybrids and can grow much faster than other, slower seeds.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-29-2008, 11:01 PM   #61
mathewjgano
 
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
You mean the 'bad luck' was a direct result of said hard work? Well, there's the secret, hard work doesn't guarentee the 'worker' takes advantage of the 'good luck'.
I definately didn't say the "bad luck" was a direct result of hard work.

Quote:
Well it doesn't mean they're mutually inclusive either. The only 'secret' of a puzzle is the answer, which isn't really a secret, as it's not intended to be kept, it's intention is to be revealed.
Not all secrets are meant to be kept forever. I'd say it's a secret insofaras people don't just give away the answer. My point was just that "puzzling" language is often described as secretive because it's not what many consider straight forward. You asked why someone would be secretive and that was the answer I came up with.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-29-2008, 11:19 PM   #62
dps
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
. So we acknowledge that there are secrets in MA, but still, a secret is something not told to anyone. What's the point of that?
Two reasons for not revealing a "secret" in martial arts.

1. To keep an advantage over a potential opponent.

2. "Grasshopper" is not ready to know and would not understand.

David
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Old 12-30-2008, 07:51 AM   #63
lbb
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
My point is that it can be rushed. Some seeds are hybrids and can grow much faster than other, slower seeds.
That does not provide an example of a process of growth being "rushed" through the gardener's use of better methods, and thus does not support the point that you are trying to make about martial arts teaching methods.
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Old 12-30-2008, 08:18 AM   #64
RonRagusa
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote:
. So we acknowledge that there are secrets in MA, but still, a secret is something not told to anyone. What's the point of that?

There are no secrets in the martial arts. There is knowledge yet unlearned but that isn't secret, it's merely waiting to be discovered.

I remember many years ago when a group of karate students from a local dojo came to our dojo to study Aikido. They were excellent students, eager to learn. After a few lessons they informed us that, regretfully, they couldn't continue studying Aikido because their instructor said if they did continue with us he would be unable to teach them the deep secrets of his art.

Secrets in the martial arts are just information that an instructor is knowlingly withholding from students, or, as in the case above, a hook to keep students on the line.

Ron
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Old 12-30-2008, 08:26 AM   #65
C. David Henderson
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Aikido is a statute waiting inside a block of marble. It's not a secret, but it is waiting to come to the surface.

2 cents.
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Old 12-30-2008, 01:14 PM   #66
Mark Gibbons
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

I'm not sure about other martial arts, but the real secret of Aikido can be found here.
http://twocranesaikido.com/video/SecretofAkido.html

Regards,
Mark
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Old 12-30-2008, 02:26 PM   #67
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Mark Gibbons wrote: View Post
I'm not sure about other martial arts, but the real secret of Aikido can be found here.
http://twocranesaikido.com/video/SecretofAkido.html

Regards,
Mark
I guarantee that's a rickroll, and I'm not going there.
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Old 12-30-2008, 02:46 PM   #68
Joe McParland
 
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Mark Gibbons wrote: View Post
I'm not sure about other martial arts, but the real secret of Aikido can be found here.
http://twocranesaikido.com/video/SecretofAkido.html

Regards,
Mark
Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I guarantee that's a rickroll, and I'm not going there.
I went. It's cute - not a rickroll.

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Old 12-30-2008, 05:40 PM   #69
GeneC
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I definately didn't say the "bad luck" was a direct result of hard work.
No, you didn't, but the implication....

Again, I don't know why you said anything past "forever"....but, you say folks say things secretive because they don't intend to be staightforward....hmmm....

Last edited by GeneC : 12-30-2008 at 05:43 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-30-2008, 05:45 PM   #70
GeneC
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Two reasons for not revealing a "secret" in martial arts.

1. To keep an advantage over a potential opponent.

2. "Grasshopper" is not ready to know and would not understand.

David
3. Secret= "cash cow"= "food,clothing , shelter, pocket money, bath, toilet priviledges,etc.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-30-2008, 05:55 PM   #71
GeneC
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
That does not provide an example of a process of growth being "rushed" through the gardener's use of better methods, and thus does not support the point that you are trying to make about martial arts teaching methods.
Ok, Mary, Mary, quite contrary, my point is that folks that have a background in MA, can learn Aikido much faster than those who're just starting out and chose Aikido as their first MA....and this says much to me about you....

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-30-2008, 06:03 PM   #72
Mark Gibbons
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I guarantee that's a rickroll, and I'm not going there.
No rickroll, just the actual real secret to aikido. Granted, it's a small, not terribly important or obscure secret. Assuming you attend the aikiweb seminar at Two Cranes some of the props will be in attendance.

Regards,
Mark
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Old 12-30-2008, 06:10 PM   #73
GeneC
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Mark Gibbons wrote: View Post
I'm not sure about other martial arts, but the real secret of Aikido can be found here.
http://twocranesaikido.com/video/SecretofAkido.html

Regards,
Mark
Mark...my man!,,,,,,you have snatched the pebble from the Master's hand....now you must go forth and .........save a bunch of ignorant Americans from harm!!...

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-30-2008, 06:28 PM   #74
GeneC
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

I now Osensei is dead, but let me ask everyone.....where is the spirit of a loaf of bread?

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-30-2008, 07:01 PM   #75
GeneC
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

My Sensei can testify, my whole career of Aikido, I was in need of knee surgery....I'm better now.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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