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Old 12-18-2008, 04:48 AM   #26
crbateman
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Just a thought... O'Sensei is said to have mused that Aikido is stolen, not taught. Perhaps he felt that the meaning of his doka was to be assimilated in the same way, leaving room for each to interpret in his own way.
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Old 12-18-2008, 07:17 AM   #27
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

I think some people, maybe a lot of people need the idea of a 'secret' to motivate them. Maybe that is why so many people drop out of Aikido when they realize that to find the secret ( which is nonexistent but they don't know it ) is going to take a long time.

David
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Old 12-18-2008, 10:22 AM   #28
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I think some people, maybe a lot of people need the idea of a 'secret' to motivate them. Maybe that is why so many people drop out of Aikido when they realize that to find the secret ( which is nonexistent but they don't know it ) is going to take a long time.

David
Like the lure of the Dragon Scroll in Kung-Fu Panda, which ,only later, was revealed to be either empty or a reflection of oneself.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 12-18-2008, 01:52 PM   #29
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Like the lure of the Dragon Scroll in Kung-Fu Panda, which ,only later, was revealed to be either empty or a reflection of oneself.
Ey, Jennifer, you should have tagged this post as SPOILER first!!
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Old 12-18-2008, 10:02 PM   #30
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
I think some people, maybe a lot of people need the idea of a 'secret' to motivate them.
Maybe a lot of people need the idea that they actually know what a secret really is and how it works... You see, secrets in and of themselves can only have power when YOU DON'T TELL ANYONE ABOUT THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE... You see, that is what makes them secret. Think about it...

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Maybe that is why so many people drop out of Aikido when they realize that to find the secret (which is nonexistent but they don't know it) is going to take a long time.
Oh, is that what they told you? Perhaps "they" didn't get it at all. Perhaps their teacher didn't get it either.

O-Sensei is thought to have said for us not to rely on secret techniques. He never said that there weren't any secrets, or that he wasn't keeping any.

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I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 12-19-2008, 06:43 AM   #31
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Ey, Jennifer, you should have tagged this post as SPOILER first!!
Do you really think that everyone on earth who would have any desire to see that movie, hasn't seen it by now?

(all 200 of them?)
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Old 12-19-2008, 06:47 AM   #32
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
O-Sensei is thought to have said for us not to rely on secret techniques. He never said that there weren't any secrets, or that he wasn't keeping any..
So, then, what's the meaning of the statement? Why don't rely on secret techniques?

- Because you shouldn't rely on any technique?
- Because the techniques are highly effective, but you shouldn't rely on their being secret (i.e., your opponent not knowing them as well)?
- Because, like a lot of secrets, just being secret doesn't make them All That, and they're not any more effective than the non-secret techniques?
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Old 12-19-2008, 06:56 AM   #33
Rennis Buchner
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Clark Bateman wrote: View Post
Just a thought... O'Sensei is said to have mused that Aikido is stolen, not taught.
This is a fairly universal idea in Japanese martial arts and cultural arts in Japan in general so Ueshiba was following the norm here rather than stating anything particularly unique about aikido.

Random thoughts,
Rennis Buchner
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Old 12-19-2008, 07:58 AM   #34
grondahl
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

I think that the entire quote is

"Progress comes to those who train and train; reliance on secret techniques will get you nowhere."

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
So, then, what's the meaning of the statement? Why don't rely on secret techniques?

- Because you shouldn't rely on any technique?
- Because the techniques are highly effective, but you shouldn't rely on their being secret (i.e., your opponent not knowing them as well)?
- Because, like a lot of secrets, just being secret doesn't make them All That, and they're not any more effective than the non-secret techniques?
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Old 12-19-2008, 08:32 AM   #35
GeneC
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
I read an anecdote about Nakazono sensei, many years ago. This is how I rememeber it:
Some aikido students asked him about the secret of aikido, and he promised to show them if they came to the dojo later on. They sure did, but he was late, so they started to practice a little. When he showed up, he encouraged them to go on, gave them some instructions, and so on. After a couple of hours he interrupted the training and said that it was time to reveal the secret of aikido:
- You've trained hard and sincerely. That's it.
Furthermore, Back in the day MA was secretly taught to a select few, so IMO, that's where the "secrets of MA " came about. Just like the secrets of Magic, there are many secrets but they're no longer a secret once you know how it's done. There are some aspects of MA that seem magical or secretive, such as Dim Mak, etc. But to me, the concept of using your Ki could be considered a "secret of MA". Then there's the MA of Ninjustu, et al which has many secrets.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-19-2008, 08:38 AM   #36
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Clark Bateman wrote: View Post
Just a thought... O'Sensei is said to have mused that Aikido is stolen, not taught. Perhaps he felt that the meaning of his doka was to be assimilated in the same way, leaving room for each to interpret in his own way.
IMO, that's a Japanese practice of not explaining much, leaving students to try and figurre it out for themselves (and possibly getting it wrong, a huge roadblock in the learning process). IMO, a dysfunctional way to teach. Just because someone is proficient at something doesn't mean they can teach it to someone else.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-19-2008, 09:52 AM   #37
crbateman
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
IMO, that's a Japanese practice of not explaining much, leaving students to try and figurre it out for themselves (and possibly getting it wrong, a huge roadblock in the learning process). IMO, a dysfunctional way to teach. Just because someone is proficient at something doesn't mean they can teach it to someone else.
Which seems to support the theory that there may not have been intent on the part of O'Sensei that readers and listeners to his more ethereal statements understood exactly what he was trying to say, but were instead left to draw their own independent conclusions.
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Old 12-19-2008, 10:42 AM   #38
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Clark Bateman wrote: View Post
Which seems to support the theory that there may not have been intent on the part of O'Sensei that readers and listeners to his more ethereal statements understood exactly what he was trying to say, but were instead left to draw their own independent conclusions.
In some traditions, the student is left to draw his own conclusions...

... which the instructor may then reject as patently wrong. It's then back to the drawing board for the student.

Some zen koan lines are like that. I also had mathematics courses like that in college (Moore Method and variants) that were very much geared toward teaching the student to stand on his own two feet as a researcher.

But, who knows? Unless someone's been blessed as The Keeper of the Doka's Meaning, we are left with questions such as, "Did O-Sensei seem like the kind of guy who'd be happy to have you have your own (differing) opinion about aikido?"

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Old 12-19-2008, 11:36 AM   #39
crbateman
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
"Did O-Sensei seem like the kind of guy who'd be happy to have you have your own (differing) opinion about aikido?"
That'd be my story and I'm stickin' to it... (until he comes back from "the other side" and tells me different)
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Old 12-19-2008, 01:10 PM   #40
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
GeneC wrote:
IMO, that's a Japanese practice of not explaining much, leaving students to try and figurre it out for themselves (and possibly getting it wrong, a huge roadblock in the learning process). IMO, a dysfunctional way to teach. Just because someone is proficient at something doesn't mean they can teach it to someone else.
Quote:
Clark Bateman wrote:
Which seems to support the theory that there may not have been intent on the part of O'Sensei that readers and listeners to his more ethereal statements understood exactly what he was trying to say, but were instead left to draw their own independent conclusions.
Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
In some traditions, the student is left to draw his own conclusions.. which the instructor may then reject as patently wrong. It's then back to the drawing board for the student. Some zen koan lines are like that. I also had mathematics courses like that in college
But is that an efficient way to teach? How much time, effort and energy is wasted. It's a fact that it takes more time and energy to un-teach something and then re-teach it correctly ( especially when muscle memory is involved), than to teach it correctly (with proper explanation and time for correct practice) the first time. I'm very fortunate that my Sensei thoroughly explains everything(including how martiallyeffective it is).

Last edited by GeneC : 12-19-2008 at 01:16 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-19-2008, 01:59 PM   #41
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

It's not the teaching, Gene; it's the learning.

In the math classes, I gained tremendous depth this way. As for things like zen and aikido, it's said that the answers / the principles / whatever are within you and all around you, staring you in the face -but my explaining that just spreads another layer of crap for you to dig through over what I'd want you to understand deeply for yourself.

Some kinds of understanding can be put in SITREP form. Others can't.

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Old 12-19-2008, 02:00 PM   #42
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Gene,

No, it is not an efficient way to teach but it is an effective one.

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Old 12-19-2008, 02:04 PM   #43
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

So is starvation and torture, but that's immoral too.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-19-2008, 02:12 PM   #44
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Aikido is about nature, and nature is amoral, its beyond good and evil.

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Old 12-19-2008, 08:11 PM   #45
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
But is that an efficient way to teach? How much time, effort and energy is wasted.
So what's an "efficient way of teaching" -- simply telling the students all the "secrets"? That might seem obvious at first glance, but then there's the fact that for teaching to take place, learning must take place as well -- and some things are not learned simply by receiving information. Teaching isn't like washing a car or building a chair; you can't simply reduce it to the fewest possible moves and call that "the most efficient way". A better analogy is gardening: I can choose a good site and I can prep the soil and I can plant the seed properly, but I'm not going to instantly have a 6' sunflower -- the plant has to do the growing.
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Old 12-25-2008, 08:52 PM   #46
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
So, then, what's the meaning of the statement? Why don't rely on secret techniques?

- Because you shouldn't rely on any technique?
- Because the techniques are highly effective, but you shouldn't rely on their being secret (i.e., your opponent not knowing them as well)?
- Because, like a lot of secrets, just being secret doesn't make them All That, and they're not any more effective than the non-secret techniques?
...along with the clarification of the actual quote in the previous post (translated into English, of course) I guess that I should add that when it comes to secrets, I wasn't referring to (secret) techniques at all. There are all kinds of secrets, and various levels of them. In any case, the real secrets are never divulged, ever. They are rarely even demonstrated around anyone who might be able to steal them. When they are used, there is no one left to comment on them, either... sigh

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 12-26-2008, 11:45 AM   #47
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Martin Butt wrote: View Post
I was discussing The Art of Peace with my brother and he pointed this phrase out... "...in the martial arts, there are no secrets."

Then later the second phrase to crop up was "..... these are the secrets of the martial arts..."

In my opinion, O Sensei is saying that there are secrets in martial arts but he doesn't believe there should be and so he will divulge them but my brothers opinion was slightly different.

We're just wondering if anyone else has any thoughts or opinions on this that they'd like to express. It'd be interesting to see what others think.
What!! There are secrets?
Oh my "god" what have I been doing all these years!!?.......
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Old 12-26-2008, 03:12 PM   #48
dps
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I can choose a good site and I can prep the soil and I can plant the seed properly, but I'm not going to instantly have a 6' sunflower -- the plant has to do the growing.
Oh no Mary, you gave away the secret 'Garden Analogy'.

David
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Old 12-27-2008, 06:16 AM   #49
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Oh no Mary, you gave away the secret 'Garden Analogy'.

David
So...do you have to kill me, or do I have to kill you???
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Old 12-27-2008, 07:20 AM   #50
dps
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Re: The Secrets of Martial Arts

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
So...do you have to kill me, or do I have to kill you???
Lol

The true secret of Aikido ( and all martial arts) and how to get it.

Taken from the thread by Ellis Amdur
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15538

http://www.toitsu.de/texte/tohei_en.htm

"What I really learned from him was not technique, but the true secret of Aikido, non-dissension; not to resist your opponent's strength but to use it."

" You could learn much more by watching him do Aikido than you could by listening to him explain ."

" I began to make rapid progress after I started copying what he did, and paid less attention to what he said."

quotes by Koichi Tohei

David

Last edited by dps : 12-27-2008 at 07:22 AM.
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