Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Spiritual

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-31-2008, 06:29 PM   #151
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Pinpoint? Oh ,ok, I see, So, you have it and anyone who says otherwise just don't get it. Well, I think I get it and it's very simple and not mystical, etc, at all.
No need to get bent out of shape dude.
Remember, I said it wasn't just myself, but also a number of people on this forum. Let's try to keep personalities out of the discussion

But, from your posts, to be perfectly candid...no you don't show an understanding of these things.
That's not a put-down btw...maybe it means you just have to get out there more and find someone willing to teach you.
There have been plenty of examples given on this board of people open enough to give others a kickstart into developing these skills.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2008, 08:03 PM   #152
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Gene,
I really don't think that was the intent... So you ask about where the spirit (i.e. ki?) of a loaf of bread is? It's in various forms in the bread and is indeed the bread itself...if I'm not mistaken....
Well thanks Matt. I'll take it ( and leave it) at that. The bread?
I's thinking it's the crumbs. My wife makes her own bread and the crumbs are just as good as any other part of the bread ( Yes, I'm truly blessed, being allergic to preservatives, she makes all condiments, jams/jellies, active yogurt, fromage de cottage, sour kraut, sushi/sashimi, bread etc, from scratch).

Oh, also, speaking of chemicals, I'd think adrenaline has alot to do with it.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2008, 08:19 PM   #153
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

There's a line in a Paul Simon song I like. It goes, "the strength to push life of spring."

To a gardener, what is the ki that makes two aspen trees grow together in a mutual spiral?

Is it less important that whether I can beat someone up?

I don't think so, and I don't think it's any less a valid example of ki.

FWIW

DH
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2008, 08:28 PM   #154
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
No need to get bent out of shape dude..
Yes, I apologize. Maybe I mis-understood you. I'm willing to wipe the slate and start over. I've been studying MA for over 30 yrs, I'd hate to think I didn't learn the simplest concepts- Ki. I respectfully dis-agree with what you're saying. Imo, in this context, force is describing energy. Otherwise we need to talk about ergs and joules and dynes and newtons, etc.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2008, 08:40 PM   #155
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
GeneC wrote:
To me, Ki is a momentary intstantaneous occurance at the point of physical exertion.
Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
And herein lies the problem I guess...
There's a lot of "well to me Ki means this" or "kokyu means <insert non-sensical expression>."
See, I was confused by this condescening remark. I should have said "to me Ki manifests itself at this moment"

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
And actually your following statement simply clarifies the fact that you're confusing the physical skills with the religious aspect.
And maybe not, but just the way you perceived it, as I surely can tell the difference between the religuous aspect of a concept and the physical aspect of it. The religious aspect certainly wouldn't hurt to help to acheive the physical part of it.

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Lowering your hips and getting weight underside has nothing to do with the frail mother lifting a car.
And maybe it has everything to do with it. She certainly wouldn't acheive it by standing back and extending only her arms.

The thread started out describing what Ki is, so now what are we talking about? All the varieties, how it manifests itself, the spiritual vs the physical, etc?

Last edited by GeneC : 12-31-2008 at 08:47 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2008, 08:57 PM   #156
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Gene, yes he is in the Ki Club, he gets it, more so than most people, myself included on this board. That is just the way it is. Certainly don't expect you to take his, mine, or anyone else word for it...I certainly didn't.

I have worked with Rob briefly for a weekend and I will tell you that in a short amount of time he has picked up skills that many of us have spent a small lifetime trying to gain.

Nothing mystical about it at all. Recommend you get with some folks that are here and see what they have to offer.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2008, 08:58 PM   #157
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Yes, I apologize. Maybe I mis-understood you. I'm willing to wipe the slate and start over. I've been studying MA for over 30 yrs, I'd hate to think I didn't learn the simplest concepts- Ki. I respectfully dis-agree with what you're saying. Imo, in this context, force is describing energy. Otherwise we need to talk about ergs and joules and dynes and newtons, etc.
Yes, been there done that. I'd recommend doing just that...wiping the slate clean, keeping an open mind and then make your decision.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2008, 09:37 PM   #158
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
See, I was confused by this condescening remark. I should have said "to me Ki manifests itself at this moment"
Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
And maybe it has everything to do with it. She certainly wouldn't acheive it by standing back and extending only her arms.
I rest my case.
I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record... but I'll reiterate: i
f you know how to do these skills, then you'd understand that those two quotes would immediately put you in the group that doesn't understand it.
Harsh as it sounds.

No one's lording it over you either,since there's plenty of people (or at least more than there used to be) who will show these things, and more importantly *how to do them and even more importantly *how to condition these things.

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
I'd hate to think I didn't learn the simplest concepts- Ki
We've been down this road before, years of practice has nothing to do with it.
If you never understood what you were supposed to be working on/conditioning you'd never get it.

Last edited by Upyu : 12-31-2008 at 09:41 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2008, 10:23 PM   #159
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Gene, yes he is in the Ki Club, .
You're kidding right? Ki club? Rhymes with glee club. So he's got the monopoly on the concept? He's been to mountain top and conversed with Osensei( who supposely has the the monopoly)? Does he meditate 3 'off the ground and walks on water? He's got Carte Blanc to be condescending to anyone else with an different opinion? Sorry, I'm not buying into it. Ki is not rocket science nor the key to the Universe. Noone's above the 'laws', right? Everyone has to play nice, right? I stand my opinion that Ki is part of the spectrum of energy that's flowing thru the Universe and manifests itself thru emotion, as stated in my sig.I truly believe this and stand by it. Amen.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2008, 11:12 PM   #160
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
I rest my case....
Ahhh, if only that were true. The folks who perform 'super-human' feats has no idea how they did it, they just did it (right then), but yet, it's exactly the same thing as ( my concept of) Ki.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-31-2008 at 11:15 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2009, 12:00 AM   #161
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
He's been to mountain top and conversed with Osensei( who supposely has the the monopoly)?
Err... Ueshiba does "not" have a monopoly on "Ki."
In fact it was his instructor Takeda Sokaku that coined the term "Ai-ki." Everyone, Chinese, Japanese, Indian etc are all talking about different approaches to a spectrum and use of skill/conditioning.

I'm not trying to be condescending Clarence, I'm just telling it how it is.

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Ki is not rocket science
Sure...but if it were that simple, why would the Asians across the board value these things so highly? These skills and their usage become pretty sophisticated the deeper you go...and in a sense it is "rocket science" since it does take a fairly sharp mind to access them. Actually, I know multiple people with a fair bit of skill that have all said candidly "an idiot can't learn these skills." Leaving it up to dreaming and wishy-washy hope just won't cut it. Critical thinking and a practical understanding of physics becomes essential.

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
I stand my opinion that Ki is part of the spectrum of energy that's flowing thru the Universe and manifests itself thru emotion, as stated in my sig.I truly believe this and stand by it. Amen.
That's like saying:
Quote:
I stand my opinion that Gravity is part of the spectrum of energy that's flowing thru the Universe and manifests itself thru emotion, as stated in my sig.I truly believe this and stand by it. Amen.
Anyone that's never heard of Gravity might be fooled by that statement, but once you have a practical understanding of what Gravity is and how it affects you, they'd find that statement ludicrous.

Btw, just to clarify, I'm not saying Ki = Gravity. I'm pretty sure you got that....but just to be sure

Quote:
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
Hey, I liked the Peaceful Warrior for what it was too...an emotional self-help movie that liked to couch "Asian" philosophy with metaphors easily digestible to "Westerners"...but it still has nothing to do with Ki dude.
It was pretty entertaining though... Strawberry Bridge FTW

Last edited by Upyu : 01-01-2009 at 12:06 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2009, 12:36 AM   #162
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
So he's got the monopoly on the concept? He's been to mountain top and conversed with Osensei( who supposely has the the monopoly)? Does he meditate 3 'off the ground and walks on water?
O'Sensei didn't have the monopoly on it... it's common to many Asian martial arts.

And are you also suggesting that levitation and walking on water are "ki" tricks? If so, then Criss Angel must be a uber ki-master too...

Quote:
I stand my opinion that Ki is part of the spectrum of energy that's flowing thru the Universe and manifests itself thru emotion, as stated in my sig.I truly believe this and stand by it.
Perhaps it is, in a very broad and generally non-specific sense... but the Ki of Heaven and the Ki of Earth are references to actual forces - the force due to the acceleration of weight by gravity and the equal and opposite reaction of the ground.

Coz Sensei Issac Newton sez so....

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2009, 12:43 AM   #163
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,237
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Hey, I liked the Peaceful Warrior for what it was too...an emotional self-help movie that liked to couch "Asian" philosophy with metaphors easily digestible to "Westerners"...but it still has nothing to do with Ki dude.
It was pretty entertaining though... Strawberry Bridge FTW
The movie was good, but the book was better.
Rob, is it a misnomer to think of ki as applying to emotion too? Isn't ki used to commonly refer to temperament? How does the term "genki" fit in with what you're talking about? I'm not saying emotion is the skills you're describing, but just trying to better understand the terminology and you know it better than I do.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2009, 12:58 AM   #164
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
The movie was good, but the book was better.
Rob, is it a misnomer to think of ki as applying to emotion too? Isn't ki used to commonly refer to temperament? How does the term "genki" fit in with what you're talking about? I'm not saying emotion is the skills you're describing, but just trying to better understand the terminology and you know it better than I do.
Yes, I think it is a misnomer to apply the "Ki" mentioned in martial arts to emotion.
If we were to follow the example you presented, then "Genki (state of well being)," "Seiki (sexual energy)" and "Tenki(the weather)" etc would all be tied together by the same thing...which they aren't.

I think Mike S. put it best on how Ki/Qi was an overall silver bullet theory (kind of like the Super String Theory for physics in modern times, the "Humours" theory by the Greeks) to explain everything that was unexplainable... but it eventually fell apart under scrutiny.

It found its way into a myriad of different parts of languages and aspects of human life that were essentially separate from each other. (Although if someone could draw a useful parallel between Seiki and Tenki...I'll buy a years worth of Oreos just for them )...and that's something that needs to be recognized.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2009, 01:01 AM   #165
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post

Coz Sensei Issac Newton sez so....
Awww maaan.... you just had to blow the party up early ..
And here I was thinking we could have let this drag on for another 50 pages or so before someone dropped the kicker
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2009, 01:17 AM   #166
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Although if someone could draw a useful parallel between Seiki and Tenki...I'll buy a years worth of Oreos just for them
It's a TCM concept that the "qi" (as a pseudo-descriptive term of some sort of "intrinsic human energy", but probably more accurate if you consider it as a euphemistic term for "general health and wellbeing"), is affected by seasonal changes (e.g. SAD). Like, when it's too hot and humid, you just don't want to do anything. When it's wet and rainy, all you want to do is stay in bed... what you do there I leave to your imagination

In a TCM sense, the whole thing about emotions (or rather "moods") affecting "qi" (and vice versa), is only a small part of the TCM spectrum of health and wellbeing... and, although somewhat related, has little to do with what the "ki" we're talking about in MA terms. Would you agree?

Quote:
Awww maaan.... you just had to blow the party up early ..
And here I was thinking we could have let this drag on for another 50 pages or so before someone dropped the kicker
Sorry dude... it's New Years day here... give the man a break... imagine if it was you that wasted the last 30 years of your life...

Last edited by eyrie : 01-01-2009 at 01:23 AM.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2009, 06:14 AM   #167
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
has little to do with what the "ki" we're talking about in MA terms. Would you agree?
Agreed in spades.

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Sorry dude... it's New Years day here... give the man a break... imagine if it was you that wasted the last 30 years of your life...
I so ...want to say something even mildly entertaining but in the interests of keeping the peace I'll take the 5th...

besides which, it wouldn't be nearly as entertaining as this...
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2009, 08:38 AM   #168
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Awww maaan.... you just had to blow the party up early ..
And here I was thinking we could have let this drag on for another 50 pages or so before someone dropped the kicker
Don't worry about that, my friend. Argument will find a way -- it's got the ki of kudzu on a Georgia summer day.

Robert, you mentioned Mike's description of "ki" as a bundle of different and somewhat loosely related concepts (my words). I agree with what I understood you to say -- this point is key to discussing ki in a martial arts context (even on a spirituality and not training thread).

Then you mentioned the bundle (my word) "fell apart" upon scrutiny. Could you clarify what you meant? Scrutiny in cultures to which the concept is native, or scrutiny by folk like us, who might have thought to find a single unifying concept in the middle of that bundle? If the former, could you say more? (Or in either case.)

Thanks for your posts, train well, and happy new year.

Regards,

David
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2009, 09:32 AM   #169
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post

Robert, you mentioned Mike's description of "ki" as a bundle of different and somewhat loosely related concepts (my words). I agree with what I understood you to say -- this point is key to discussing ki in a martial arts context (even on a spirituality and not training thread).
Let me clarify a bit. Mike's description of "ki" is a bundle of CLOSELY (apologies for the caps, wanted to avoid confusion) related concepts as it pertains to the martial concepts of a certain way to use the body, and a specific conditioning of the body.

The overall concept of "Qi" within the TCM paradigm, is fairly loosely related at best.
This overall concept of "Qi" fell apart upon scrutiny among some accomplished boxers even in China
I-Chuan is a good example, the founder of which, Wang, openly ridiculed the traditional explanations, rules etc (search for "dantian qi")

Think of it along the lines of the differences discovered in an "earth centric universe" vs. "earth simply part of a larger whole universe."
Both are based upon observations, which in themselves aren't wrong persay, they (people past) just formed an incorrect theory to tie it all together.

I'm definitely not the best source of information on the overall Qi/Ki paradigm. My own interest mainly focuses on the martial aspects, but Ignatius mentioned a good example of the connections/differences a couple posts back.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2009, 09:41 AM   #170
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Robert, Thanks for your response.

The details add a lot to what you were conveying.

Also, thanks for the link.

DH
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2009, 11:54 AM   #171
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,619
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
I think Mike S. put it best on how Ki/Qi was an overall silver bullet theory (kind of like the Super String Theory for physics in modern times, the "Humours" theory by the Greeks) to explain everything that was unexplainable... but it eventually fell apart under scrutiny.
That is not exactly true. It was scrutinized according to equivalence to energy, and to force, neither of which fit. The examination went little further. Newton, for all of his immense success, was wrong about a fundamental thing -- position and velocity are not absolute -- they are relative. Berkeley's criticism of Newton turned out to be right, in determining the problem of angular momentum and inertial moment. The relative position of the observer determines both position and velocity, a point Ernst Mach and later Einstein took to the limits of our present physical understanding.

Force presumes absolute position. Energy presumes absolute velocity. Neither is exactly true - but both are approximately true for most common uses. Ignatius is correct about gravity's importance, but only as a source of a powerful frame of reference. That frame of reference may also be overcome.

Ki is a relativistic concept, and therefore closer to the actual reality, but for this reason, may often not fit with our "absolute" reference bias in preferring to use force and energy concepts. Not that there''s anything wrong with that. But reliance on a presumed absolute reference is a vulnerability if someone is exploiting a more basic truth. It doesn't require lightspeed, it merely requires a changing of center.

Traditional understanding of Ki requires both positive and negative phases -- and it cycles. Energy does not do that; force does not do that; angular momentum does.It also bridges the distinction and equivalence between energy and mass -- which is held in the distinction between light, ethereal Ki and heavy, congealed Ki .

Angular momentum is simply another physical convention that may be used to describe every motion/energy problem that force and energy equations also may be used to describe. In Western terms, in some cases it seems simpler to use that convention than to use force/energy conventions, particularly in mechanical or structural situations. But the terms of angular momentum/inertial moment are a better fit to the Chinese/Japanese concepts of Ki as they are used in a physical context, which is all I wish to address.

Once I match velocity or position (ki-musubi) with that of the attack, I alter the relative center of the action which radically alters the attacker's stability assumptions -- with his own motion. Matching position and changing center on contact is "Ki of Earth." A good example of this is suri-otoshi with the sword. Matching velocity and changing center on contact is "Ki of Heaven." A good example of this is kiri-otoshi with the sword. Use of both with the sword (ten-chi) is exemplified in suri-age. David Valadez has a a nice kumitachi video of the three in sequence. [ http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/weapons1.html ] But they are found in variations in other systems of kumitachi (and kumijo) exercises I have trained in -- notably those of Saotome and Saito. In tai jutsu there is typically much more interplay between these principles, because the interactions are always less acute. That is why sword work is helpful to aiki training because it has clearer (but much narrower) lines of action, and so the essence becomes clearer.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2009, 12:09 PM   #172
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,619
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
This overall concept of "Qi" fell apart upon scrutiny among some accomplished boxers even in China
I-Chuan is a good example, the founder of which, Wang, openly ridiculed the traditional explanations, rules etc (search for "dantian qi")
An excellent interview. Thanks. The relevant portion is worth posting:
Quote:
Wang Xiangzhai wrote:
As for the theory of the dantian qi, from the theoretical point of view, field tests, and my own perception from experience and observation, this theory does not seem proper. Within the abdomen there are the intestines, the stomach, and the liver, there is no place to fill with the qi. As for the functions of force, they are all effects of the opposite power, the explosive power, and the power of the universe combined, and exerted together with breath that makes the body bulge and undulate, open and close, and the body and spirit being integrated with the atmosphere in one's mind.

That has nothing to do with what the people call the qi of qigong. They always take a potbelly as dantian qi, that is just extremely wrong. One must know that when exerted, the strength must be issued evenly and completely. In order to be entirely free from worry and to gain strength, one should also be at leisure and natural, that is just being reasonable. The students of modern times do not understand this truth, they spend dozens of years working hard, and instead of gaining lively bodies and minds from the training, they become machines.
I take it that Wang criticizes the "vital fluid" conception of qi, but seems to endorse the physical concept in his own terms of "undulating power."

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2009, 02:23 PM   #173
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
I'm not trying to be condescending Clarence, I'm just telling it how it is.
Sorry, but that's how I perceive it. what's more important, what you meant, or how I took it?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Sure...but if it were that simple, why would the Asians across the board value these things so highly? These skills and their usage become pretty sophisticated the deeper you go...and in a sense it is "rocket science" since it does take a fairly sharp mind to access them. Actually, I know multiple people with a fair bit of skill that have all said candidly "an idiot can't learn these skills."
Well Shucks, maybe it's like Backgammon or something- easy to laern, but a liketime tomaster.

Quote:
Rpbert John wrote:
Leaving it up to dreaming and wishy-washy hope just won't cut it. Critical thinking and a practical understanding of physics becomes essential.
Well shoot fire and save the matches, if you know somebody like that here, please reveal them.

That's like saying:

[qute=GeneC] I stand by my opinion that Ki is part of the spectrum of energy that's flowing thru the Universe and manifests itself thru emotion, as stated in my sig.I truly believe this and stand by it. Amen.[/quote]

Quote:
GeneC wrote:
I stand by my opinion that Gravity is part of the spectrum of energy that's flowing thru the Universe and manifests itself thru emotion, as stated in my sig.I truly believe this and stand by it. Amen.
Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Anyone that's never heard of Gravity might be fooled by that statement, but once you have a practical understanding of what Gravity is and how it affects you, they'd find that statement ludicrous.
I find your (mis)perception intertaining ,but not amusing, as the latter is nothing like the former. Changing a word changes the entire concept. Anyone from 8th grade science up knows that gravity is NOT an energy (which's something that can't be created nor destroyed, only tranferred), but a byproduct of the energy spectrum in the Universe.

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Hey, I liked the Peaceful Warrior for what it was too...an emotional self-help movie that liked to couch "Asian" philosophy with metaphors easily digestible to "Westerners"...but it still has nothing to do with Ki dude.
It was pretty entertaining though... Strawberry Bridge FTW
Well, I didn't see the movie, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express and finished the book. I found it very slow setting up the plot and Mr Millman used way too many words to say very little( altho that book created quite an income and career for him). Oh flitter sticks ( I know how you hate colloquials), I wouldn't say it had NOTHING to do with ki. Surely there's a nugget in there somewhere. Could we stop the tit-for-tat? If you have something to contribute, get on with it, please, y'all.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2009, 02:57 PM   #174
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Yes, I think it is a misnomer to apply the "Ki" mentioned in martial arts to emotion.
If we were to follow the example you presented, then "Genki (state of well being)," "Seiki (sexual energy)" and "Tenki(the weather)" etc would all be tied together by the same thing...which they aren't.
Ok, you'll need to show me how the two are relevent

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
I think Mike S. put it best on how Ki/Qi was an overall silver bullet theory (kind of like the Super String Theory for physics in modern times, the "Humours" theory by the Greeks) to explain everything that was unexplainable... but it eventually fell apart under scrutiny.
I think it's sad that some folks need the approval of other dead folks in order to validate their own thinking.

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
It found its way into a myriad of different parts of languages and aspects of human life that were essentially separate from each other. (Although if someone could draw a useful parallel between Seiki and Tenki...I'll buy a years worth of Oreos just for them )...and that's something that needs to be recognized.
Well, my wife gets sexually aroused during severe rain storms, especially with lightening( and the accompanying thunder)( something about the "pure, raw, energy")( we have a Florida room and a hammock that's seen more action than a $10 room at the "Wardorf"). So, do I get the Oreos? I'd prefer raw spinach.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2009, 06:27 PM   #175
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
If you have something to contribute, get on with it, please,
Err...I have and then some, if you hadn't been following my last couple of posts.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Energy" Neil Mick Language 48 07-20-2006 07:33 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:56 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate