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Old 12-16-2008, 08:20 AM   #76
GeneC
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote:
I think we're just different travelers, all looking at the same Mount Aiki from different angles.
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
... Very, very likely.
Funny, all that Quantum Physics led ya'll right around in a circle back to this profound observation. Welcome back!

So can we all agree there's this energy flowing throughout the Universe and it's all around us and we can tap in to it and have it flow thru us and out into an explosive movement?

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-16-2008, 09:25 AM   #77
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
So can we all agree there's this energy flowing throughout the Universe and it's all around us and we can tap in to it and have it flow thru us and out into an explosive movement?
I'll let Sy and Erick give you their response to that (hopefully, in ten words or less ).

As for me, I'm going to say, "no".
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Old 12-16-2008, 11:36 AM   #78
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Adam Bauder wrote: View Post
As for me, I'm going to say, "no".
I find your lack of faith disturbing ...

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Old 12-16-2008, 11:54 AM   #79
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Distrubances in faith, if not the force, good may be.
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Old 12-16-2008, 02:22 PM   #80
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I find your lack of faith disturbing ...
Touché (I think ...)

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Old 12-16-2008, 03:55 PM   #81
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote:
So can we all agree there's this energy flowing throughout the Universe and it's all around us and we can tap in to it and have it flow thru us and out into an explosive movement?
Yeah, but you don't need aikido for that -- TNT works just fine ... I wouldn't want have it flow through me, though. I ain't never seen that kind of constipation --- and never hope to ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-16-2008, 04:36 PM   #82
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Funny, all that Quantum Physics led ya'll right around in a circle back to this profound observation. Welcome back!
Hehe, I don't think we mentioned any quantum physics once during this discussion. If we did, my head would hurt.

[quote]So can we all agree there's this energy flowing throughout the Universe and it's all around us and we can tap in to it and have it flow thru us and out into an explosive movement?/QUOTE]

Yup, wholeheartedly. Without energy, well... nothing would happen at all. Ever.


---------------------------------
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Old 12-16-2008, 09:58 PM   #83
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Well, good luck on your journey up Mt Aiki, see y'all up there. Hope there's enough energy.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:24 AM   #84
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Wait ,hold the press, I found this (funny noone mentioned this) :

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...highlight=kami

Now, on that thread, most everyone is saying just about the same as I said in my first post, but somehow this turned out very different. So what's the difference( besides the fact that over there, y'all're thinking and talking in Japanese and I talk in American)?

Last edited by GeneC : 12-17-2008 at 08:28 AM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-17-2008, 02:34 PM   #85
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...highlight=kami

Now, on that thread, most everyone is saying just about the same as I said in my first post, but somehow this turned out very different. So what's the difference( besides the fact that over there, y'all're thinking and talking in Japanese and I talk in American)?
This is worth considering in that regard and helps tie in what I contemplate in my perspective with the more spiritua, less physical approaches ot the issue of Ki:
Quote:
Rev. Koichi Barrish wrote:
KI is primal causer…everything is started by KI. The Great Universe is started by KI. Your mood, decisions and actions are initiated by Ki. Of course negative Ki exists but we can purify ourselves to sense Ki and to receive positive Ki
In this statement, I can find agreement from several purely Western perspectives. "First Cause" is an ancient formula, in both Greek physics and metaphysics, and latterly in theology of the Christian era. Biblically, it connects to the concept of kokyu in Genesis. The Ruah (wind or breath) of God moved on the waters of chaos, creating light and dividing light from darkness, into day and night, in continuous alteration. Kokyu - and in-yo ho -- oscillation from positive to negative where the positive is, in fact, the only real thing that exists or is gained, and the negative is merely its absence or departure.

Everything that exists, exists in an oscillatory dynamic. Mass is a set of standing waves in static oscillation; energy is those waves unbound to fare across the universe. Both may be understood, quite literally, as the reverberations of the first and mightiest clap that was Creation. Think about that when you salute the Kamidana. Yama-biko.

There is very much in Shinto and in O Sensei's understanding of Shinto that is proto-evangelical from a Christian perspective -- the degree and correspondence of of which is a constant source of fascination and speculation.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-17-2008, 03:01 PM   #86
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Like I said: a constant source of fascination and speculation:

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/id...us_met_buddha/

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-17-2008, 06:58 PM   #87
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
This is worth considering in that regard and helps tie in what I contemplate in my perspective with the more spiritua, less physical approaches ot the issue of Ki:Rev. Koichi Barrish wrote:
KI is primal causerˇ¦verything is started by KI. The Great Universe is started by KI. Your mood, decisions and actions are initiated by Ki. Of course negative Ki exists but we can purify ourselves to sense Ki and to receive positive Ki
In this statement, I can find agreement from several purely Western perspectives. "
OK, so, let me make sure I'm undersatnding what's meant So , first he's saying Ki is God and God initiates our mood, decisions and actions, but negative Ki (i.e., a negative God or Satan?) exists, but can be purified. Sorry, I just can't buy into that. So, Ki gave his only begotten Son, so that whosoever shall believe in Him shall have everlasting life? Nope, that just doesn't work for me, besides brain synapsis and electrical impulses are what intiates mood, decisions and action.

Quote:
Eric Mead wrote:
Everything that exists, exists in an oscillatory dynamic. Mass is a set of standing waves in static oscillation; energy is those waves unbound to fare across the universe....
That's what I said in my first post (using different words) and I believe we can channel that energy thru our bodies.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-18-2008, 10:43 AM   #88
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

I would find it remarkable if the beliefs of a Shinto priest DID articulate with Christian theology without leaving any daylight between the two.

But aren't we talking about concepts developed in non-Christian civilizations? Isn't it important what people who hold those beliefs understand those concepts to be?

(By the way, as Erick points out, "'First Cause' is an ancient formula, in both Greek physics and metaphysics, and latterly in theology of the Christian era." The Neo-Platonists had an idea of the divine as well as "First Cause." Their beliefs influenced the development of Christian theology, but their idea of the divine was not the same as that of modern Christians any more than followers of Shinto.)

To me, it is the recurrence of breath as a concept and set of ritual practices in different religions and culutures that stansd out.

Respiration is the model/physical manifestation of espiritu in many cultures. We say "bless you" after a sneeze, for example. And breathing practices are often part of rituals used in those cultures to bridge from the mundane to the sacred (as those cultures understand them).

I strongly suspect Gregorian chants (sung en masse in the early morning cold on a starvation diet) would give one quite a buzz too after a few hours.

Set aside, just for the sake of this discussion, our likely different beliefs about "true" religious understanding.

The question would remain why, in many different societies at many different times, the idea of breath is a symbol of spirit, and people use breathing techniques to try to touch the divine.

That, to me, that phenomenon is relevant to a discussion of Ki.
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Old 12-18-2008, 10:54 AM   #89
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

By the way,

Compare, please,

http://www.merriam-webster.com/spanish/espiritu

Main Entry: espíritu
Function: masculine noun
Language: Spanish
1 : spirit
2 ánimo : state of mind, spirits plural
3 el Espíritu Santo : the Holy Ghost

with

Rev. Koichi Barrish wrote:
KI is primal causer…everything is started by KI. The Great Universe is started by KI. Your mood, decisions and actions are initiated by Ki.

Parallels?
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Old 12-18-2008, 12:21 PM   #90
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
OK, so, let me make sure I'm undersatnding what's meant So , first he's saying Ki is God and God initiates our mood, decisions and actions, but negative Ki (i.e., a negative God or Satan?) exists, but can be purified.
In Genesis, to be exact, when God created the universe, the Ruah or Breath of God moved as the First Cause. That is very plainly related to the concept of Ki. God in his Person, in both Jewish and Christian understanding is beyond cause or no-cause.

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Sorry, I just can't buy into that. So, Ki gave his only begotten Son, so that whosoever shall believe in Him shall have everlasting life? Nope, that just doesn't work for me, besides brain synapsis and electrical impulses are what intiates mood, decisions and action.
Well: O Sensei said this:
Quote:
"Kirisuto ga ‘hajime ni kotoba ariki' to itta sono kotodama ga SU de arimasu. Sore ga kotodama no hajimari de aru." (‘In the beginning was the Word', spoken by Christ is this kotodama SU. This is the origin of kotodama.)
This quote is taken from the Takemusu Aiki lectures and the Japanese is given by Prof. Goldsbury. Kotodama (lit.= "Word-spirit") is, plain as day, related to the Divine Logos, which has the deepest possible roots into Western Theology. Moreover, O Sensei even takes pains in way so as not to identify the kotodama SU directly with the Divine Logos but as proceeding from Him. You may take it how you wish, but that is what he said and the distinction that he made. .

Kotodama is the vocalization (intentionality) of kokyu, which arises from the cycle of Ki.

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
That's what I said in my first post (using different words) and I believe we can channel that energy thru our bodies.
You already are, just not terribly well, yet.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 12-18-2008 at 12:24 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-18-2008, 12:26 PM   #91
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

This book looks interesting, and the author familiar...

Life Energy Encyclopedia: Qi, Prana, Spirit, and Other Life Forces around the World (Paperback)
by Stefan Stenudd (Author)
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Old 12-18-2008, 02:53 PM   #92
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
I That, to me, that phenomenon is relevant to a discussion of Ki.
Relevant to breathing, yes( see m sig), saying Ki is God, no.

Btw, we say "bless you" when someone sneezes because the Germans thought your heart stopped, but that's not really true either.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-18-2008, 02:59 PM   #93
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
GeneC wrote:
That's what I said in my first post (using different words) and I believe we can channel that energy thru our bodies.
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
You already are, just not terribly well, yet.
Exactly

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Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-18-2008, 03:02 PM   #94
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
This book looks interesting, and the author familiar...

Life Energy Encyclopedia: Qi, Prana, Spirit, and Other Life Forces around the World (Paperback)
by Stefan Stenudd (Author)
Just ordered his books ( That and "Attacks in Aikido:How to do the Kogeki, the Attack Techniques"). Should be here any day. Plus I'm studying T'ai Ch'i, and the T'ai Ch'i Sifu has her own ideas about Ch'i (which is what I lean to)(see my sig, that's Lao Tsu and Tao Te Ching).

Last edited by GeneC : 12-18-2008 at 03:07 PM.

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Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-18-2008, 06:10 PM   #95
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts after you read the book and have a chance to digest the information.
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Old 12-19-2008, 01:35 AM   #96
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Btw, we say "bless you" when someone sneezes because the Germans thought your heart stopped.
In German we don't say "bless you".
The traditional term is to wish "good health".

Carsten
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Old 12-19-2008, 03:23 AM   #97
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Gesundheit!

Ignatius
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Old 12-19-2008, 01:34 PM   #98
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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David Henderson wrote: View Post
I'd be curious to hear your thoughts after you read the book and have a chance to digest the information.
You mean other than that Ki is where we channel the energy of the Universe through our own bodies?

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Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-19-2008, 01:43 PM   #99
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
...channel the energy of the Universe ?
When you have a way of telling us what You mean by that phrase we can better help your inquiry. When three or four people have said things from different perspectives about their understandings of it, (which is fine), your response seems to be "that's what I meant." That does not really engage the points they made at all, but rather seems merely a substitute of the same jargon for different ways of thinking about these problems. We have lots of jargon here, but we also have fair amounts of thinking that lie behind many of the people who have responded to you. You could do well to take better advantage of their thinking than by sticking to the jargon.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-19-2008, 09:16 PM   #100
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Ok, I say:"There's a huge spectrum of energy flowing thru the universe, that makes all things exist, from the entire expanding Universe, to holding revolving Galaxies together, to revolving solar systems to rotating planets, to revolving atoms, all things we know of are in it: sound- ultra sound to microwaves, X rays, Gamma rays, etc, color, light, electricity, magnetism , electro-magnetism, etc. The energy we call spiritual is part of that spectrum. The Japanese call it Ki the Chinese call it Ch'i. We just mostly call it a higher power( unless we use another cultures word).. Now, saying that a Deity MADE all this happen and controls all this and then certain things happened according to human writings- that's religion."

To that someone said Ki was "intention", to which I feel it's more than that.

Then you said: "It is not THAT obscure. The modern usage of "ki" in the terms that Japanese martial arts presently refer to it, can be understood from Miura Baien's writings (18th cen.) where he developed the idea in terms quasi-physical, with relics of the mystical, that we are familiar with."

Then someone said:"The Japanese - English dictionary translates µ¤
(1) spirit; mind; heart
(2) nature; disposition
(3) motivation; intention
(4) mood; feelings
(5) atmosphere, essence"

Then someone else quoted this from another thread: "In aikido we often use the word 'ki', or energy, but this word covers a variety of meanings. "Ki" as it is manifested in the performance of techniques is what we have when the components of correct posture, center line, breathing, the explosive power of focused energy, timing, etc., come together so that we reach the highest state of perfect balance. It might be said that 'ki' is the 'mastery of balance'."

Then Stephan Stenudd said this: "I wrote a book about life force ideas around the world, and found that they can be sorted into categories. One of those categories is air based life force ideas, such as qi, ki, prana, spirit, ruach, and so on.These concepts have great similarities, so I dare say that they have more to do with common human traits and circumstances than with cultural differences."

Then someone said this: " Mike:In the "chinese understanding of ki", there are distinguished so many different types of ki, eachone having a name of its own.I never experienced or read that concerning the "japanese understanding". Am I wrong?How do you distinguish ki and kokyu e.g. when you breaht in through your feet and out through your eyes? What is ki, what is kokyu?"

Then someone said: "Well I worked about the relationship of qi, ki and the christian "Holy Ghost" ."

The you used a whole bunch of words to say:"Ki, considered in physical terms as angular momentum, is a quantity, albeit a relative quantity because it depends entirely on choice of center"

Then someone said: "Well, there are different aspects of ki, but the basic, fundamental ki is the same in both Japanese and Chinese understanding. The original idea that strength, health, etc., is a function of something called "ki" or "qi" is the basis of the theory which is used in both China and Japan. "

The I said: "Didn't say it had anythng to do with other energies, just that it's in the same spectrum, but then this begs the questions: Can you create KI? Can you destroy it? or just channel (transfer) it? This is the definition of energy "

Then this was said: "Erick Mead wrote:
Ki, considered in physical terms as angular momentum, .... "

Mike Sigman wrote:"Hard to make them needles in acupuncture work if they're trying to work with angular momentum. Of course, I guess you do twirl the needles when you insert them..... I hear one bid of electromagnetic energy, one bid of angular momentum.... do we have any further bids????"

Then you said:"Electromagnetic energy IS NOT different from angular momentum. Photons have zero mass but still have momentum. The reason is that the conventional formula for momentum (p) is p= mv, mass times velocity, but is only an approximation of the relativistic definition which is p = Sqrt[(E/c)2 - (mc)2]. This is simply an algebraic conversion of the familiar E=mc^2 into terms of momentum. "

Then someone responded: "Ah jeez. So many dichotomies, so little time; each dichotomy proving itself to be "exactly" what the Chinese were talking about. "

Then Stefan Stenudd said:" There's certainly not any primordial knowledge of Einstein's relativity behind the emergence of the ideas of qi. What was the start of it, though, is very hard to know for sure.My guess is that it began with speculations about the difference between life and death, and the observations that breath was a decisive factor - those breathing were alive, those not were dead.I allow myself to compare with many similar concepts across the globe, which seem also to have began with speculations about what life is, and what is essential for it."

The someone quoted the "Manual of Acupuncture"

Then someone said: "That's kind of neat, like a self-winding watch! "

Then you said: "Yes. And "energy" began as "vital essence"

The someone said: "When I first learned about myofascial therapies, "

The I said: "I have never heard of Ki used to describe disposition, intention or mood. Power , spirit, energy, yes"

Then I said: "I believe it has to do with drawing from the energy in the Universe and channeling it out thru your body in a particularly explosive movement."

Then Someone said: " I don't do Ki-Aikido. But I was told that "intention" is the metaphor used in Ki-Aikido in Europe."

To which someone replied: "Hmm. I haven't practised with the Ki Aikido fellows either...I guess I think of intention as the direction of ki projection rather than ki itself"

The someone said: "Having no real expert knowledge of qi/ki in the sense that it was used historically by the Chinese and Japanese, but being an avid lover of intellectualizing any kind of body movement into the realm of physics and kinesiology (i.e., I'm also a math/science kind of guy), I've also tended to define ki in a similar way, as a vector of intention and focus and also the full capabilities of an entire human body moving mechanically efficiently."

Then Stefan Stenudd said:" I certainly agree with you that nobody knows for sure."

The you used alot of words to say: "It is not a new observation, by any means. Dealing with Ki in terms of intent, illustrates the importance of angular momentum as the basis for physical conventions most closely fitting the problem. "

Then you used a whole bunch of more words that didn'tmake a whole lot of sense.

Then you talk about quantum gravity (and I still don't know what that has to do with KI)

then this was said:"I think we're just different travelers, all looking at the same Mount Aiki from different angles"

The we end up with this: "Clarence Couch wrote:
That's what I said in my first post (using different words) and I believe we can channel that energy thru our bodies.

Erick Mead wrote:"You already are, just not terribly well, yet."

So, as many folks said as many things about Ki, so what are you talking about? Listen to whom?

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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