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Old 12-12-2008, 04:36 PM   #51
GeneC
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I guess that's a valid point. We may have a different perspective because I went a little further than Jr. High School. Regards,Mike Sigman
I'm tempted to say something equally "cute" like, "Oh really? I couldn't tell. "or something, but I won't. I'll let you go on being cute. Btw, schooling doesn't necessarily make one smart and certainly not wise.

I don't know what exactly Acupuncture has to do with Ki/chi/energy (in the context of tapping into the Universal energy), but I'm taking Acupuncture right now and the Dr who's doing it explained it to me that it's all about our brains and spinal cords and the pathways thrughout our body. That electrical current (energy= Ki, Chi) runs thru our body and to our muscles and organs. Poor posture, diet, pollutants( drugs, alcohol, smoke, processed food, polllution, etc) block the paths (like logjams or blockages) and the needles (and heat or electical current to the needle, which I get) opens up those paths (or closes certain paths in the case of pain or addictions) so a good flow of energy (chi.ki) takes place. while this may good for good health, I'm talking about tapping into an outside energy that exists outdside the body and channeling it thru the body and out into action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDC23K54XHk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTBN0b4qcyY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xYrIHtdfUA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kREGdnxMh2Q

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-12-2008, 04:44 PM   #52
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
I have never heard of Ki used to describe disposition, intention or mood.
???

But that's a very big point in the "japanese understanding" of ki?
(Different of the "chinese understanding"?)

I don't do Ki-Aikido. But I was told that "intention" is the metaphor used in Ki-Aikido in Europe.

I know fellows that lived in Japan for a while, one of our shihan is japanese, I got a friend whose girlfriend is japanese ... : disposition, intention, mood or feeling in common sense is ki.

Carsten

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 12-12-2008 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 12-12-2008, 05:10 PM   #53
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
???

But that's a very big point in the "japanese understanding" of ki?
(Different of the "chinese understanding"?)

I don't do Ki-Aikido. But I was told that "intention" is the metaphor used in Ki-Aikido in Europe.

I know fellows that lived in Japan for a while, one of our shihan is japanese, I got a friend whose girlfriend is japanese ... : disposition, intention, mood or feeling in common sense is ki.

Carsten
Hmm. I haven't practised with the Ki Aikido fellows either...
I guess I think of intention as the direction of ki projection rather than ki itself. Being a math/science kind of person, I picture the place where I'm grounded (e.g., my back foot) as the origin and the ray of my intention (e.g., from my tanden to your arm or whatever) as the pointy-arrow of a vector.
That is to say, I think of intention as a direction more than as a force in itself. It's interesting how the flavour of an idea changes a little when one uses different words to handle it!

I am not an expert
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Old 12-12-2008, 05:39 PM   #54
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
... I'm talking about tapping into an outside energy that exists outdside the body and channeling it thru the body and out into action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDC23K54XHk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTBN0b4qcyY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xYrIHtdfUA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kREGdnxMh2Q
Are you implying that the above video links are examples of "tapping into an outside energy"? Since this thread is located under "Spirituality", I'm just curious if you think it's possible to perform any of O'Sensei's demonstrations without it.

Thanks,
Adam
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:09 PM   #55
Rennis Buchner
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
???

But that's a very big point in the "japanese understanding" of ki?
(Different of the "chinese understanding"?)

I don't do Ki-Aikido. But I was told that "intention" is the metaphor used in Ki-Aikido in Europe.

I know fellows that lived in Japan for a while, one of our shihan is japanese, I got a friend whose girlfriend is japanese ... : disposition, intention, mood or feeling in common sense is ki.
I have to second this. "Intent" etc is obviously not the whole sum of ki, but in everyday conversation here with everyday people I'd say the bulk of the use of "ki"in conversation involves intention, while discussions of ki in the martial arts type of understanding like we see here are pretty unusual and tend to happen in small groups like... martial artists.

Random info,
Rennis Buchner
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:56 PM   #56
Sy Labthavikul
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Jeremy Morrison wrote: View Post
Hmm. I haven't practised with the Ki Aikido fellows either...
I guess I think of intention as the direction of ki projection rather than ki itself. Being a math/science kind of person, I picture the place where I'm grounded (e.g., my back foot) as the origin and the ray of my intention (e.g., from my tanden to your arm or whatever) as the pointy-arrow of a vector.
That is to say, I think of intention as a direction more than as a force in itself. It's interesting how the flavour of an idea changes a little when one uses different words to handle it!
Having no real expert knowledge of qi/ki in the sense that it was used historically by the Chinese and Japanese, but being an avid lover of intellectualizing any kind of body movement into the realm of physics and kinesiology (i.e., I'm also a math/science kind of guy), I've also tended to define ki in a similar way, as a vector of intention and focus and also the full capabilities of an entire human body moving mechanically efficiently.

Now that I think of it, that is a kind of energy, isn't it? Focused kinetic energy generated by a person. Makes sense that our martial arts forebears in China and Japan, who obviously had never heard of anything remotely like "one half em vee squared" would consider such applications of power to be mystical/spiritual. What else could it be?

But to me, energy is energy. I just think the energy of qi/ki happens to have a wholly mundane explanation.

If qi/ki is focused application of efficient body movement, it makes sense (at least to me) that qi/ki has always been linked to breathing/breath. Breathing properly obviously aids in attaining that focus: I'm sure we've all experienced the calming, relaxing, focusing effect of just breathing and counting to 10 (I just did when some bleephole cut me off on the 110 freeway).

Breathing properly is also required for efficient body movement; the movement of the diaphragm and all the other pulmonary muscles is necessary to prevent all the surrounding muscles in the core from "locking up" and tensing prematurely, and allows for smooth transference of muscular energy throughout the body (say from pushing off the ground, into the core, through the chest/shoulders/arms into an explosive punch). A clock won't work if a single cog in all that fancy Swiss mechanism is jammed, right?

My (somewhat facetious) guess was some of our martial arts predecessors thought "hey, check out my breathing as I perform this awesome feat of martial prowess." And without benefit of any other intellectual framework to aid them, they decided that the breath was both necessary and sufficient to explain the phenomena (instead of just necessary), and so the definition of qi/ki as "breath."

And "breathing" is also necessary for life, so qi/ki must be some sort of lifeforce. But how does this lifeforce move around? Well, we also need blood for life, and blood kind of flows about the body in veins and arteries and capillaries and whathaveyou, so this lifeforce qi/ki probably also flows through meridians and channels throughout our body.

But we can't physically find them! Thats all right, we couldn't find the aether or phlogiston or N-rays or polywater, but that didn't stop those scientists from using all that jazz to explain natural phenomena. And even today, we STILL can't find dark matter or the Higgs boson or vibrating superstrings and supersheets!

Nowadays with our (very limited) understanding of neuroscience, some people are using the concept of electrical impulses or chemical messengers as the medium by which qi/ki is propagated, but if you look at it closely, these arguments are no more or no less valid than the "breath" or "blood" explanations: you've just substituted mediums.

Ok, this is getting longwinded, but my point is, ultimately human beings love to find order in disorder, and to force explanation after the fact.

In In the Dojo, when Dave Lowry discusses the origin of the popular idea that the 7 pleats of the hakama represent the 7 virtues of budo, he writes "Like nature's reaction to a vacuum, it is a characteristic of the human imagination that, where a space exists, we find something to fill it in... I suspect... [this explanation]... is fantasy or, at best, an ambitious bit of back-formation."

I have a question to ask everyone though; do you think this old definition of qi/ki is helping or hindering the teaching of its application? I personally think if it is used in a metaphorical or symbolic way, it can aid in teaching the cultivation of qi/ki, but if its used as the ONLY explanation, unsupported by valid kinesiology, it can be pathological and hinder people's understanding.

Then again, like Jeremy Morrison signature says, I'm not an expert in anything. But you guys are, so what are your thoughts?


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Old 12-12-2008, 07:27 PM   #57
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Rennis Buchner wrote: View Post
I have to second this. "Intent" etc is obviously not the whole sum of ki, but in everyday conversation here with everyday people I'd say the bulk of the use of "ki"in conversation involves intention, while discussions of ki in the martial arts type of understanding like we see here are pretty unusual and tend to happen in small groups like... martial artists.
That is a fascinating thing (to me) about the proposition of ki tracking angular momentum -- angular momentum is dependent on the point of observation -- the center defined as "unmoving" -- which draws in the subjective intentional element into the objective physical description but in a rigorous way.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-13-2008, 01:21 PM   #58
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

I'm sorry, Erick, but I didn't follow that thought completely. Could you say more? Thanks.

DH
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Old 12-14-2008, 07:46 AM   #59
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Re: Air based life forces

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Stefan, I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but there is a valid body of thought that the idea of ki came from the early explanations of how the body moves. I.e., that discussion I just pointed out has a very great deal to do (potentially) with the "origin of the qi concept". The human body is thought to be a reflection of how the universe works... and vice versa. Think about that and which theory came first. No one knows for sure. But I think we can assume that it would be odd if the actual movement of the human body coincidentally conformed with some disparate view of how the cosmos works, right?
I certainly agree with you that nobody knows for sure. About qi, though, there are strong indications that the concept is linked to air, and the necessity to breathe in order to stay alive. The meaning of the word, as well as the kanji, definitely points in that direction. So does a comparison with so many similar ideas around the world, linking a life force to air and breath.

Of course, breath is a bodily function, and living is signified by moving - so I guess that in some way we say the same thing

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 12-14-2008, 11:54 AM   #60
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Adam Bauder wrote: View Post
Are you implying that the above video links are examples of "tapping into an outside energy"? Since this thread is located under "Spirituality", I'm just curious if you think it's possible to perform any of O'Sensei's demonstrations without it.Thanks,Adam
Yes, I am.

Is it possible to perform Aikido techniques without Ki? I suppose, but they probably wouldn't be nearly as effective as with it. Some would be impossible, imo. Ki is that energy that's "out there" in the Universe, that we can tap into (apparently by breathing), that allows us to perform "super-human" feats, meaning stuff that normal, everyday folks couldn't do. I guess the goal of Aikido is to harmonize with that energy, Or else to breathe really good.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-14-2008, 01:16 PM   #61
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
I have a question to ask everyone though; do you think this old definition of qi/ki is helping or hindering the teaching of its application? I personally think if it is used in a metaphorical or symbolic way, it can aid in teaching the cultivation of qi/ki, but if its used as the ONLY explanation, unsupported by valid kinesiology, it can be pathological and hinder people's understanding.
Not real sure about which "old definition" you're talkin' about, but I'd say go ahead and stand in front of me and I'll throw a punch with just my arm, then I'll take a good solid stance and get my breathing going and then reach back from way out here in Vegas and haul off and punch you thru to the Pacific, yelling like a Banshee and see if you can tell a difference. What kind of definiton does that need?

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-14-2008, 01:30 PM   #62
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Not real sure about which "old definition" you're talkin' about, but I'd say go ahead and stand in front of me and I'll throw a punch with just my arm, then I'll take a good solid stance and get my breathing going and then reach back from way out here in Vegas and haul off and punch you thru to the Pacific, yelling like a Banshee and see if you can tell a difference. What kind of definiton does that need?
Oops, sorry I wasn't being clear. I guess by "old definition" I meant "standard definition," and this question was really posed in the context of teaching the cultivation of these kinds of skills to people who don't yet have them. There's tons of examples of organizations purportedly teaching qi/ki skills who simply refer to it as some mysterious breath/lifeforce/energy and teach a lot of mystical mumbo-jumbo (Yellow Bamboo Association, anyone?), and a lot of people buy into these.

Of course, if you already have these skills, then these definitions are just an academic thing and not too important (though still interesting to think about). If you quack like a duck and move like a duck, then people can argue whether or not to call you a duck, but either way you still can go fly off for a nice swim in a lake when the academics start getting dry.


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Old 12-14-2008, 06:10 PM   #63
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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I'm sorry, Erick, but I didn't follow that thought completely. Could you say more? Thanks.
It is not a new observation, by any means. Dealing with Ki in terms of intent, illustrates the importance of angular momentum as the basis for physical conventions most closely fitting the problem.

The first exercise of intent is in the choice of perspective in perception. Every one with two eyes and a working occipital lobe has at least three different visual perspectives in their own head. Left eye, right eye and the colaesced perspective that is centered on neither eye. That position of observation is in Indian thought called "san paku" -- the "third eye" that sees the coalesced vision and lies outside of and not physically tied to the perspectives of the other two. In aikido, to my way of thinking, this operation is made kinesthetic, rather than visual -- but the reality and the principles are all the same.

Bishop Berkeley followed this line of thought when coming at odds with Newton in the early eighteenth century about whether space and position were absolute. Newton said they were; Berkeley said they weren't, and that the point intentionally chosen or defined for an observation established the only "fixed" frame of measure. He anticipated Ernst Mach and later Einstein who ran out the full implications of the concept that position, velocity and space were all relative in fundamental terms. Angular momentum is very useful in this context because it undefined except with regard to an unmoving center of observation -- which relativity (since at least the time of Berkeley) tells us is an arbitrary (therefore intentional and subjective) choice.

Berkeley said that for conventional purposes you could use the "heavens of the fixed stars" as an "unmoving" absolute reference frame of space, (and in fact this is what almost everyoine does) but he maintained it was only that, a convention for reference, not a real absolute. Turns out he was right.

Even "straight line" constant velocity movement can be described as angualr momentum. Motion is perceived as angular shift across the field of view (in varying velocity -- just as we hear Doppler shifts in apparent velocity, and actually do see velocity as variable from our perspectives). It is only our conventions that defined velocity as fixed and motion as straight lines -- which we have deliberately chosen -- for simplicity of analysis, not for conformity to our actual sense of perception.

The fact is that, in addition to showing a fundamental observer bias in classical mechanics (a subjective intentional perspective), Berkeley also presaged the related observer paradox of quantum mechanics in his famous sound of a falling tree query. In him we see observer/subjective determinations becoming welded to the equally valid objective reality, such that to sever the two is a fundamental error of thought.

From the perspective of Aikido, whether I move my opponent, or my opponent moves me, or we move together around a common center is really a question of choice of point of observation of the encounter. That does not imply that all perspectives are equal, absolutely or relatively. If I choose a superior perspective, and my opponent chooses a poorer one I have a definitive advantage

I like to use the vision example -- I have two eyes. If one eye's line of sight is blocked, the other eye is not necessarily blocked. They each see from a different center. When I feel my opponent's dynamic, I am not committed my own point of observation in the encounter. If he is committed to his "vision" of the physical dynamic his perception from that perspective may become blocked in some way. Since he has committed to his own perspective alone, he has, in essence, closed his other proverbial eye that would open his perspective to perceive the area beyond that partial obstacle obscuring his perception -- just as it does with vision.

I, on the other hand (if I have trained kokyu tanden ho properly so as to sense structure, kinesthetically and intuitively), can perceive the structural dynamic from at least three standpoints -- mine, his, and a third one that is the equivalent of mine and his in stereo, like the different vision of my two eyes are perceived from yet a third perspective that is different from both. San paku in physical terms This is generally the best perspective of all.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-14-2008, 06:20 PM   #64
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote:
Are you implying that the above video links are examples of "tapping into an outside energy"? Since this thread is located under "Spirituality", I'm just curious if you think it's possible to perform any of O'Sensei's demonstrations without it.
Yes, I am.

Is it possible to perform Aikido techniques without Ki? I suppose, but they probably wouldn't be nearly as effective as with it. Some would be impossible, imo. Ki is that energy that's "out there" in the Universe, that we can tap into (apparently by breathing), that allows us to perform "super-human" feats, meaning stuff that normal, everyday folks couldn't do. I guess the goal of Aikido is to harmonize with that energy, Or else to breathe really good.
Of course he used an "outside energy" there were at least four guys pushing on his head giving it to him...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-14-2008, 07:41 PM   #65
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Erick,

Thanks for taking time to reply. The core idea you present of stereo vision and its analogy to an aikido interaction I find interesting and apt.

You certainly are correct, as well, that absolute time and absolute space, qua objective containers of matter and energy, simply doesn't exist. Rather, time and space are "generated" by the objects in the universe of reference. I'm not sure I think there needs to be a necessary relationship between this observation and what I labeled the "core idea" I took from your post, but maybe that's just me.

Still, your description of left eye, right eye, and stereoscopic vision and use of that description as a metaphor for physical interaction I find thought provoking.

Regards,

DH
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Old 12-14-2008, 08:32 PM   #66
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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... absolute time and absolute space, qua objective containers of matter and energy, simply doesn't exist. Rather, time and space are "generated" by the objects in the universe of reference. I'm not sure I think there needs to be a necessary relationship between this observation and what I labeled the "core idea" I took from your post, but maybe that's just me.
I was tying the aspects of intentionality, which is very much part of the common usage of the term Ki to the aspect of centers of perception of action. While people's usage of terms often diverges from a "core idea" into connotative channels that may be far removed, yet there is still a reason and a principle by which the two still relate that may be understood.. In their respective contexts there is a relationship that helps explain why the same term has been co-opted for seemingly different purposes. Language is only rarely a purely ad hoc affair.

In my search for the correct physical convention in western terms for the concepts of Ki as they are practically used in aikido, I keep finding that the fit of the one I have been working through is better in many ways and in many areas than I had expected -- even metaphysically. This leads me to conclude that whatever errors I may (and often am) committing in the process of working this out -- some important root elements of it are spot on.

I find this thread of connection to be present in the practice of aikido as it has been given to me to try to preserve and develop in what ways I can. The Founder's various (and very difficult) descriptions are taken take by many people (often very serious and otherwise well-informed people) as "ramblings".. This seems to me a category error. The myth, spirituality and the physical side are not so divergent to my mind, even though I do not share in the often wispy spiritualist bent that often seems to come with taking O Sensei's spiritualtiy and his mythological expressions seriously.

A serious mind was at work in generating the practice of aikido. For all his recondite mythological thinking, I find it hard to deny the same sort of seriousness in the effort shown in his written work (or his recorded lectures) disclosed, most notably in the Doka.

They are poetry. Poetry is, above all, an expression of thinking about physicality and perception and the ways they play upon one another. As I see it, that is essentially what Aikido is about. Many people seem to take the Doka as spiritual things divorced from the practical aspects of understanding aikido and its principles. To the contrary, I think they are very much among the soundest guides, properly understood as the poetry that they are. They may be bad poetry and still accomplish the purposes he likely intended

Quote:
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Still, your description of left eye, right eye, and stereoscopic vision and use of that description as a metaphor for physical interaction I find thought provoking.
Metaphor? I am less and less sure of that. There are things I feel about my own body that rely on transmission by the structure itself, rather than secondary direct neural transmission. The latter is quite slow, actually, especially comaped to some things in a fast moving setting of combat.

I speak of vibration, mainly, oscillation in cycles, subconscious stuff. That aspect of Ki I also find described best in terms of angular momentum, and exploited in terms of things like resonance. But in kokyu tanden ho I truly can feel when my entry into my partner's structure is past his wrist, past his elbow, then at his shoulder, then at his neck and down into his spine and then at this center. I can feel this without visual cues.

People that taught me described in ijn similar ways before I knew what the devil they were talking about, but now I do. I can see why they described it the way they did. Sure, half-way good people can defeat a throw using the same things to counter, especially in set-piece things like koky tanden ho -- but that just shows the advantage to an imbalance of perception. Something is being communicated that I perceive, and it need be nothing more spooky than vibrations -- hearing with my bones, as it were. But then, the ears evolved from jostling bones -- didn't they? So maybe this is not such a wild idea after all, and maybe not a metaphor at all. .

Last edited by Erick Mead : 12-14-2008 at 08:38 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-15-2008, 09:44 AM   #67
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I
Metaphor? I am less and less sure of that. There are things I feel about my own body that rely on transmission by the structure itself, rather than secondary direct neural transmission. The latter is quite slow, actually, especially comaped to some things in a fast moving setting of combat.

I speak of vibration, mainly, oscillation in cycles, subconscious stuff. That aspect of Ki I also find described best in terms of angular momentum, and exploited in terms of things like resonance. But in kokyu tanden ho I truly can feel when my entry into my partner's structure is past his wrist, past his elbow, then at his shoulder, then at his neck and down into his spine and then at this center. I can feel this without visual cues.

People that taught me described in ijn similar ways before I knew what the devil they were talking about, but now I do. I can see why they described it the way they did. Sure, half-way good people can defeat a throw using the same things to counter, especially in set-piece things like koky tanden ho -- but that just shows the advantage to an imbalance of perception. Something is being communicated that I perceive, and it need be nothing more spooky than vibrations -- hearing with my bones, as it were. But then, the ears evolved from jostling bones -- didn't they? So maybe this is not such a wild idea after all, and maybe not a metaphor at all. .
Hi Erick,

Well, the connection to quantum gravity still isn't there for me, but no worries; there is a lot here that I find quite thought provoking.

Particularly the part quoted above. By the way, I wasn't saying your description of what you experience in contact was a metaphor for what is really happening. Direct transmission of impulse through the body, oscillation, resonnance -- I accept those aren't metaphors for something else, and "hearing with my bones," well that may be a metaphor, but its another good one.

Thanks, as always.

DH
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Old 12-15-2008, 11:11 AM   #68
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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David Henderson wrote: View Post
Well, the connection to quantum gravity still isn't there for me, but no worries; there is a lot here that I find quite thought provoking.

Particularly the part quoted above. By the way, I wasn't saying your description of what you experience in contact was a metaphor for what is really happening. Direct transmission of impulse through the body, oscillation, resonnance -- I accept those aren't metaphors for something else, and "hearing with my bones," well that may be a metaphor, but its another good one.
Quantum gravity is to wispy science what some approaches to O Sensei's mythology are to wispy spirituality. No worries there.

Considering resonance has been a very fruitful aspect of practically applying this line of thought (or more accurately, seeing why things that we are already doing make sense physically). Furitama provokes whole-body vibration at a low resonance. That cannot be an accident. Tekubifuri is an overdriven resonant pulse oscillation that lifts and drops the whole structure remotely, without conscious muscular effort (other than to maintain the correct wrist shaking frequency). Funetori is a lower frequency, more undulating oscillation cycle. The Doka speaks of the "demon snake and the spirit of bees. I get it.

Resonant relationships are 90 degrees out, i.e. -- + juji. Intersecting phases of oscillation at 90 degrees difference oppose zero to the maximum negative and positive phases of the other and vice versa -- hence "no resistance" in the sense of a diminishing opposed signal.

Apart from the interesting intersection that juji provokes for me with Christian teaching (pun anyone?), this is verging well outside of the "spiritual" forum topic so I'll leave it at that. But fundamentally I see the division between physical and spiritual is as artificial or conventional as the division between objective and subjective perspectives.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-15-2008, 12:38 PM   #69
Sy Labthavikul
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Considering resonance has been a very fruitful aspect of practically applying this line of thought (or more accurately, seeing why things that we are already doing make sense physically). Furitama provokes whole-body vibration at a low resonance. That cannot be an accident. Tekubifuri is an overdriven resonant pulse oscillation that lifts and drops the whole structure remotely, without conscious muscular effort (other than to maintain the correct wrist shaking frequency). Funetori is a lower frequency, more undulating oscillation cycle. The Doka speaks of the "demon snake and the spirit of bees. I get it.

Resonant relationships are 90 degrees out, i.e. -- + juji. Intersecting phases of oscillation at 90 degrees difference oppose zero to the maximum negative and positive phases of the other and vice versa -- hence "no resistance" in the sense of a diminishing opposed signal.
Oh boy, Erick, this talk of resonant frequencies out of phase and drawing parallels between orthogonal resonance modes (where orthogonality is mathematical) to the perpendicular lines of a cross, juji (where orthogonality is physical) just reminds me somewhat nostalgically of my days at Caltech trying really hard to sleep through class without my professor noticing.

I've heard an avid sailor compare juji in jujinage to turning the wheel of a ship, and I've heard an engineer talking about it pragmatically as the lever of one arm working on the fulcrum of the elbow of the other arm, but never as wave functions or signal processing. :-)

I think we're just different travelers, all looking at the same Mount Aiki from different angles.


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Old 12-15-2008, 01:40 PM   #70
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

For me, the talk of resonnance made sense the first time I ran across it (from Erick's writing, not coincidentally). Since then, I have sometimes tried to observe how the timing of my "inputs" into a technique affected, for example, the amplitude of uke's reaction in the following phase of the technique.

Based on that experiment, and for this erstwhile traveler at least, this particular signpost seemed pointed in a useful direction, i.e., in a direction that seems to lead more up that down the mountain. FWIW.

DH
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Old 12-15-2008, 02:07 PM   #71
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
Oh boy, Erick, this talk of resonant frequencies out of phase and drawing parallels between orthogonal resonance modes (where orthogonality is mathematical) to the perpendicular lines of a cross, juji (where orthogonality is physical) just reminds me somewhat nostalgically of my days at Caltech trying really hard to sleep through class without my professor noticing.
You don't have a slide rule glued to your tsuka? OK it was my father's slide rule -- I admit. Being a traditionalist, that makes it nostalgia, on my part, and the calculator, even these days, still seems to WAY too clunky as a koshirae.

More seriously, are you saying that the mathematical and the physical relationships of physically orthogonal and mathematical orthogonal cyclic processes are not significant to actual practical experience? Because if you are, I -- and about every other helicopter pilot on the planet -- would seriously argue the point with you. I know some people think that helos only hover out of a black magic drawn from the evil that men do, -- but I swear -- it is not so ...

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Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
I've heard an avid sailor compare juji in jujinage to turning the wheel of a ship, and I've heard an engineer talking about it pragmatically as the lever of one arm working on the fulcrum of the elbow of the other arm, but never as wave functions or signal processing. :-)
Yeah. But those were analogies -- this isn't. Angular momentum and the observer problem are part and parcel of the {{Oh Holy Crap}} moments of well executed aikido that we never see coming.

Funnily enough, my exploration this direction came with the comment by an instructor of mine that aikido used no leverage. That caused me to begin asking the question how to move and shift something using no leverage. Then I learned to fly helicopters and learned vortices, played with a rope, imagined my arm as a rope -- and the rest is history.

See, this is where it got me, so be careful of idle comments ...

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Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
I think we're just different travelers, all looking at the same Mount Aiki from different angles.
Very, very likely.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-15-2008, 09:51 PM   #72
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Of course he used an "outside energy" there were at least four guys pushing on his head giving it to him...
So, with that 'quantum' knowledge, how do you explain how Osensei was able to resist those four and then toss them back with such force?

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Old 12-16-2008, 12:19 AM   #73
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Are you talking about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxxb2ctulEs#t=2m

I have seen taijiquan practitioners also do the "push-on-head" demonstration. I have always thought it was an example of grounding - realigning the bodily structure so that any incoming force is redirected through the body into the ground. I'm definitely the least qualified here to discuss it; Mike Sigman or Dan Harden or a bunch of others definitely could explain it better.

Ultimately, those four guys weren't pushing on O'Sensei, they were pushing on the ground. In fact, it looks like by their postures that they were relying upon O'Sensei to support their weight. He didn't really throw them in this video; he moved out of the way and they fell because they had nothing supporting them.

Could anyone do that? Probably very few can. I know I certainly can't. But from doing yoga headstands, I know the body, if aligned properly, can transmit incredible forces through it without really being affected by them.

I'm content to think of O'Sensei as an extraordinary man who's mastery of these body skills was bordering on the supernatural, but I also think that the skills themselves were not magical. The way you can say a genius concert pianist who just improvised a moving piece seemingly out of thin air is divinely inspired, but the playing of piano itself is just another amazing thing that humans do.


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Old 12-16-2008, 08:10 AM   #74
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Well, that's not exactly the vid I's talking about( I provided the vids I's talking about), but I am talking about those techniques he did. I hesitate to trivialize his feats (nor that of a prodigy pianist). While the students may have been pushing more down while he was stitting( I agree, you or I couldn't do it ), they weren't when pushing on the ken. Afa, the prodigy piano player playing a improvised heavenly piece, I believe it IS Divine intervention. Playing a piano isn't that big of a deal to someone who's been playing for a long time( I've been playing guitar for about 35yrs now), yet it still holds them in awe to hear/see a true genius inspired piece, for they know it comes from a supernatural place. And that's what I'm talking about here, is tapping into that higher power and channeling it thru your own body, allowing you to do "super human" feats. The "energy" is real and the manifestation is real, imo.

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Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-16-2008, 08:10 AM   #75
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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So, with that 'quantum' knowledge, how do you explain how Osensei was able to resist those four and then toss them back with such force?
Nope, entirely classical, I am afraid. Been there; done that:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=371

Short answer, they knocked themselves over when he removed his support -- he never locked the hinges in his own structure and so he could collapse it or "snap" it like a whip or a towel -- and them -- at any time once they tried to push on him. The Jo trick ( also discussed in that post) is related -- by keeping extension (or retraction) along the perpendicular to their line of push equal to their extension, the pushers are made to conflict with themselves and with one another, negating their own effort. It is just kokyunage with a longarm.

And for added spice, the chest push and thigh push examples of similar demonstrations:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=78
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...6&postcount=96

Regrettably, the video links seem to have been expired, but the head push discussed is another example of the one already linked here. But, apart from rebutting those examples and showing they are not esoteric mystical energies, vice trained uses of good mechanics -- we are veering off the topic.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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