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Old 12-10-2008, 02:25 PM   #26
GeneC
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

No bids here, if you choose to deny what's taught in Jr high science class, then "Whitney Hueston, we have a problem!"

Ok, the "Energy Spectrum" of the Universe, where ALL energies exist (based on the energy waves they emit, measurable and confirmed by scientist everywhere for along ,long time), including light, sound, heat, color, electricity etc. One thing is there's waves (energy) that they don't have the technology to measure yet. Believe it or not (I'm a big fan of Ripley's).

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-10-2008, 02:54 PM   #27
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
No bids here, if you choose to deny what's taught in Jr high science class, then "Whitney Hueston, we have a problem!"
I guess that's a valid point. We may have a different perspective because I went a little further than Jr. High School.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-10-2008, 08:16 PM   #28
Rennis Buchner
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
In the "chinese understanding of ki", there are distinguished so many different types of ki, eachone having a name of its own.
I never experienced or read that concerning the "japanese understanding". Am I wrong?
In the ryu I am a member of there is one section, titled 習気, in the makimono devoted to ki which lists six different types of 気 to be learned. Related to that there are also a mess of 眼 to be mastered as well such as 正眼,天眼,地眼,人眼 among many others. The oldest surviving densho discussing these date from the later half of the 1600's so it would appear that at least some traditions did distinquish between different types of ki. As for the Japanese today, who knows... in most dojo here the topic of ki usually gets passed off with a sort of "it's very difficult, practice a bunch for a long time and it will naturally develop" sort of reply.

For what it's worth,
Rennis Buchner
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Old 12-10-2008, 08:47 PM   #29
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Rennis Buchner wrote: View Post
which lists six different types of 気 to be learned.
Rennis, can you clarify different "types"... or did you mean "aspects"?

Ignatius
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Old 12-10-2008, 08:59 PM   #30
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Rennis, can you clarify different "types"... or did you mean "aspects"?
Six different names. A-ki, B-ki, C-ki, etc
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Old 12-11-2008, 12:28 AM   #31
eyrie
 
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Rennis Buchner wrote: View Post
Six different names. A-ki, B-ki, C-ki, etc
Thanks Rennis. If you were bound by an oath of secrecy regarding these matters, then you should have kept it under your hat in the first place. And I'm sure that you didn't intend for this to come across in any way as an insult to intelligence.

Ignatius
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Old 12-11-2008, 03:05 AM   #32
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Thanks Rennis. If you were bound by an oath of secrecy regarding these matters, then you should have kept it under your hat in the first place. And I'm sure that you didn't intend for this to come across in any way as an insult to intelligence.
No worries. The information is "publicly available" in that the 1600's densho in question is available for viewing and can sometimes be copied for private reseach upon request at a museum in Japan. That being said we still like to be tight lipped to a certain degree (yeah it is "public", but it is still "our" info darn in) coupled with the fact that I don't entirely have a full grasp of the subject matter in the first place, hence my reluctance to get into it in more depth. No oath breakage, just avoiding sticking my foot in my mouth in the future I just thought that the info was relevent in that it is one source of a Japanese art actually having more than one "universal" key.

BTW, the last reply's shortness was due to typing it while running out the door to work... Sorry if it came off sounding rude.

Random babbling mode off
Rennis
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Old 12-11-2008, 04:34 AM   #33
eyrie
 
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

No problem. I figured it was some compelling reason like that.
However, it's still a piss poor excuse for divulging the information to begin with and then not sharing the details... (j/k)

Ignatius
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Old 12-11-2008, 05:03 AM   #34
Rennis Buchner
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
No problem. I figured it was some compelling reason like that.
However, it's still a piss poor excuse for divulging the information to begin with and then not sharing the details... (j/k)
Well I suppose I could try and do a quick summary of 30 plus handwritten pages of details all written classical Japanese this evening. .....then again maybe not. Really though, it's so much not that I wouldn't want to share the information, at least among certain circles, so much as that I just got copies of these densho recently and I need a couple of years to digest the 500 some pages of new information before I can really have any meaningful conversation on the topic.

Best,
Rennis
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Old 12-11-2008, 07:46 AM   #35
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Re: Air based life forces

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hard to make them needles in acupuncture work if they're trying to work with angular momentum. Of course, I guess you do twirl the needles when you insert them.....

I hear one bid of electromagnetic energy, one bid of angular momentum.... do we have any further bids????

Mike
Electromagnetic energy IS NOT different from angular momentum. Photons have zero mass but still have momentum. The reason is that the conventional formula for momentum (p) is p= mv, mass times velocity, but is only an approximation of the relativistic definition which is p = Sqrt[(E/c)2 - (mc)2]. This is simply an algebraic conversion of the familiar E=mc^2 into terms of momentum.

In lay terms, if you zero the mass term, there is still a quantity of momentum -- we know light pushes on mass. Similarly, if you zero the energy term, there is still the resting moment of the inertial mass, and we know mass bends light. So the fact that a zero mass entity still affects other mass, and a zero energy mass still affects a zero mass photon, shows that momentum is actually the primary preserved quantity, just in two forms.

What that form of the equation p = Sqrt[(E/c)2 - (mc)2]
shows is precisely what classical Chinese natural philosophy taught -- that the universe is divided in varying mixed proportions into the light ethereal qi (energy), and the heavy condensed qi (mass), but the root of both forms in Chinese thinking is the one primal qi (momentum). Since these cycle in Chinese thinking -- it is angular momentum in Western terms, and these two bodies of knowledge fit together.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:05 AM   #36
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Re: Air based life forces

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Electromagnetic energy IS NOT different from angular momentum.
Unless angular momentum IS electromagnetic energy, it is different. Trust me on this one. "Similar to, in the following regards" might have done it, "is not different" won't do it.
Quote:
What that form of the equation p = Sqrt[(E/c)2 - (mc)2]
shows is precisely what classical Chinese natural philosophy taught -- that the universe is divided in varying mixed proportions into the light ethereal qi (energy), and the heavy condensed qi (mass), but the root of both forms in Chinese thinking is the one primal qi (momentum). Since these cycle in Chinese thinking -- it is angular momentum in Western terms, and these two bodies of knowledge fit together.
Ah jeez. So many dichotomies, so little time; each dichotomy proving itself to be "exactly" what the Chinese were talking about.

The idea of "ki" didn't arrive from pre-historic Chinese having knowledge about the amount of energy released in an atomic explosion... it had to do with the way strength (and by association: health) was propagated within the body. That's really all it was. Everything else derived from those simple beginnings. They noted the roles the fascia/connective-tissues had to do with strength and they noted that the support of the ground and the pull of gravity had a lot to do with strength because of the way the body converts them and uses them. All else follows.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:46 AM   #37
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Re: Air based life forces

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The idea of "ki" didn't arrive from pre-historic Chinese having knowledge about the amount of energy released in an atomic explosion... it had to do with the way strength (and by association: health) was propagated within the body. That's really all it was. Everything else derived from those simple beginnings. They noted the roles the fascia/connective-tissues had to do with strength and they noted that the support of the ground and the pull of gravity had a lot to do with strength because of the way the body converts them and uses them. All else follows.
There's certainly not any primordial knowledge of Einstein's relativity behind the emergence of the ideas of qi. What was the start of it, though, is very hard to know for sure.

My guess is that it began with speculations about the difference between life and death, and the observations that breath was a decisive factor - those breathing were alive, those not were dead.
I allow myself to compare with many similar concepts across the globe, which seem also to have began with speculations about what life is, and what is essential for it.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 12-11-2008, 09:12 AM   #38
Mike Sigman
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Re: Air based life forces

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
There's certainly not any primordial knowledge of Einstein's relativity behind the emergence of the ideas of qi. What was the start of it, though, is very hard to know for sure.

My guess is that it began with speculations about the difference between life and death, and the observations that breath was a decisive factor - those breathing were alive, those not were dead.
I allow myself to compare with many similar concepts across the globe, which seem also to have began with speculations about what life is, and what is essential for it.
from A Manual of Acupuncture by Deadman et al:

Quote:
Quote:
Different theories have been advanced to explain the discovery of the channels. These theories may be summarised as being of two main kinds: 1. points first, channels second and 2. channels first, points second. According to the first theory, centuries of observations of the existence of tender spots on the body during the course of disease, and the alleviation of symptoms when they were stimulated by massage or heat, led to the gradual discover of the acupuncture points. When sufficient points were known, they were linked into groups with common characteristics and effect, and aided by the observation of propagated sensation when they were stimulated, understanding of channel pathways followed. According to the second theory, propagated sensation during the course of massage and more especially the exploration of the internal landscape of the body through mediation and qigong practice, led to the discovery of the channel pathways, with the knowledge of specific points coming later. This second theory received strong confirmation from the significant discovery of a silk book during excavation of the Western Han tomb at Mawangdui, which describes the pathways of eleven channels but does not refer to any specific points.
If you've been exposed to traditional body mechanics in martial-arts postures, etc., the above explanation is redundant or at least supportive. How the body moves and propagates strength is the unerlying thesis for ki/qi and the idea originated pretty much beyond any doubt as the initial thesis from which acupuncture arose.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-11-2008, 11:37 AM   #39
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
They noted the roles the fascia/connective-tissues had to do with strength and they noted that the support of the ground and the pull of gravity had a lot to do with strength because of the way the body converts them and uses them. All else follows.
That's kind of neat, like a self-winding watch! - so does the strength (or some of it) that propagates through the body originate in movement? Also, are the channels referred to in the acupuncture text merely conduits, or is strength propagated within those courses as well?
My knowledge of TCM is just about nil, so I'm finding this thread particularly interesting - keep it up!

I am not an expert
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Old 12-11-2008, 02:05 PM   #40
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Re: Air based life forces

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If you've been exposed to traditional body mechanics in martial-arts postures, etc., the above explanation is redundant or at least supportive. How the body moves and propagates strength is the unerlying thesis for ki/qi and the idea originated pretty much beyond any doubt as the initial thesis from which acupuncture arose.
Well, that quote refers to the meridians and points used in acupuncture, but I was talking about qi - and that concept may very well precede the acupuncture ideas.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 12-11-2008, 03:02 PM   #41
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Re:Ki Chi and energy

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The idea of "ki" didn't arrive from pre-historic Chinese having knowledge about the amount of energy released in an atomic explosion... it had to do with the way strength (and by association: health) was propagated within the body. That's really all it was.
Yes. And "energy" began as "vital essence." Those concepts did not remain stuck where they began in the understanding of the cultures that developed them. Both systems are reflections upon observations of nature and the patterns of things going on in the world.

The Chinese were astute enough to reason out a patterned system from more rudimentary information than we now have. Later, more rigorous observation and reasoning from larger bodies of evidence seems still to fit their essential patterns, and is a testament to their observations and their reasoning about the nature of the patterns, not some idea that they had developed relativity and a concept of the speed of light.

The issue, really, is whether the two systems can connect in someway more meaningful than gross analogy or metaphorical associations. Physically, at least, they can and do in the way I have described.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-11-2008, 05:33 PM   #42
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

two quick comments:
1. When I first learned about myofascial therapies, I was struck by (what seemed to me, with exposure to both but not real training...) the similarities between myofascial junctions in the body and the location of TCM channels. Not being a practitioner I never went further to essay a specific comparision.
2. For anybody interested in the subject, a book I've read twice now and very strongly recommend is The Expressiveness of the Body: The Divergence of Greek and Chinese Medicine It is very well written. As a nurse I loved the long discourse on what different practitioners are actually feeling/finding when they "take the pulse." And it goes further to explore how their divergence really reflects two different ways of considering what it means to be a human being.

Janet Rosen
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:05 PM   #43
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Re: Air based life forces

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Well, that quote refers to the meridians and points used in acupuncture, but I was talking about qi - and that concept may very well precede the acupuncture ideas.
No, that quote refers to muscle-tendon channels; they preceeded the more refined acupuncture meridians. And there's little doubt the muscle-tendon channels were studies of how the body moved while the idea of qi was posited as the defining paradigm. The discussions of how movement correlates with qi/ki are common in martial arts, although you may not have encountered them.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-11-2008, 09:02 PM   #44
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
2. For anybody interested in the subject, a book I've read twice now and very strongly recommend is The Expressiveness of the Body: The Divergence of Greek and Chinese Medicine It is very well written. As a nurse I loved the long discourse on what different practitioners are actually feeling/finding when they "take the pulse." And it goes further to explore how their divergence really reflects two different ways of considering what it means to be a human being.
I actually picked up a copy of the book second-hand a year ago but haven't gotten around to it yet - I will now, though; thanks for the recommendation!

I am not an expert
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Old 12-12-2008, 01:25 AM   #45
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Re: Air based life forces

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The discussions of how movement correlates with qi/ki are common in martial arts, although you may not have encountered them.
I was not at all refering to that discussion, but to the question of the origin of the qi concept. I thought I had made that clear.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:45 AM   #46
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Re: Air based life forces

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
I was not at all refering to that discussion, but to the question of the origin of the qi concept. I thought I had made that clear.
Stefan, I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but there is a valid body of thought that the idea of ki came from the early explanations of how the body moves. I.e., that discussion I just pointed out has a very great deal to do (potentially) with the "origin of the qi concept". The human body is thought to be a reflection of how the universe works... and vice versa. Think about that and which theory came first. No one knows for sure. But I think we can assume that it would be odd if the actual movement of the human body coincidentally conformed with some disparate view of how the cosmos works, right?

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:06 AM   #47
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Re: Air based life forces

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Stefan, I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but there is a valid body of thought that the idea of ki came from the early explanations of how the body moves. I.e., that discussion I just pointed out has a very great deal to do (potentially) with the "origin of the qi concept". The human body is thought to be a reflection of how the universe works... and vice versa. Think about that and which theory came first. No one knows for sure. But I think we can assume that it would be odd if the actual movement of the human body coincidentally conformed with some disparate view of how the cosmos works, right?

Mike Sigman
I think it would be perfectly consistent, however, to consider that as the emergence of man continued along the observation that he worked the same as the world around him would give rise to language that communicated this insight.

BTW, welcome back, Mike.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:15 PM   #48
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Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

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Carsten M”¦lering wrote: View Post
A little bit one can see the differences between Japanese and Chinese understandig af ki and ch'i by comparing dictionarys.

The Japanese - English dictionary translates µ¤
(1) spirit; mind; heart
(2) nature; disposition
(3) motivation; intention
(4) mood; feelings
(5) atmosphere; essence;

The Chinese - English dictionary translates µ¤
air, gas, steam, vapor; spirit Carsten
So 2 of the 5 match exactly (assuming these are accurate), pretty darn close (not like two completely different meanings). I have never heard of Ki used to describe disposition, intention or mood. Power , spirit, energy, yes.

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Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:21 PM   #49
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Re: Air based life forces

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The idea of "ki" didn't arrive from pre-historic Chinese having knowledge about the amount of energy released in an atomic explosion... it had to do with the way strength (and by association: health) was propagated within the body. FWIW Mike Sigman
I believe it has to do with drawing from the energy in the Universe and channeling it out thru your body in a particularly explosive movement.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-12-2008, 04:19 PM   #50
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On generating power

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
I believe it has to do with drawing from the energy in the Universe and channeling it out thru your body in a particularly explosive movement.
Hi Clarence,

I'm not sure what you're responding to in Mike's post, that you quoted.
Are you saying (from the above quote) what you believe, or what you thought the Chinese believed?

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Adam
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