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Old 11-20-2008, 09:39 PM   #76
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
Nick Pittson wrote: View Post
Mr. Cereijo,
I do not have my copy of Budo here at work, but I suspect that just before the quote you supplied, uke was doing something....my guess was he was attacking nage, not refusing to follow orders, or just standing around minding his own business.
Well, check it when you arrive home and you'll see.

For those who don't have that book, here are the scans:



Clearly uke was not attacking in technique nš 5 (shomen uchi ikkyo omote), when uke attacks first, the founder proposed technique nš 6 (shomen uchi ikkyo ura).

You can see the same approach to shomen uchi ikkyo in Budo Renshu (the one with the drawings).

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Old 11-21-2008, 02:21 AM   #77
Joe Jutsu
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Witnessing and receiving excessive police force was exactly what attracted me to aikido. What an irony it was to find myself training along officers of the law.

Our deepest gratitude and sympathy should be extended to those who altruistically carry out their career of choice, be it policing the public or designing crochet.

Based on the information that we have all seen, this is but another unfortunate event illustrating the chasm between the citizenry and their elected authority. "To Protect and to Serve." What an abstract idea, no?

Now the douchebag-y "suspect" in the video pretty much fits the description of many whom terrorize the streets of my quaint, little, college town. We call them frat-boys. Doesn't make them guilty of anything but poor taste. Were there not 2 suspects? Good thing for Frat Boy that he didn't have a "TapOut" T-shirt on, 'cause that would have definitely made him the guilty party!

What we have is finger pointing, and Kodak Kourage. And we have a lot of rationalizing. The real KO of this argument (to sum it up) was :"thumbs in pockets, not hands."

Plus ki out there!

Joe
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Old 11-21-2008, 03:07 AM   #78
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
Joe Proffitt wrote: View Post
Witnessing and receiving excessive police force was exactly what attracted me to aikido. What an irony it was to find myself training along officers of the law.

Our deepest gratitude and sympathy should be extended to those who altruistically carry out their career of choice, be it policing the public or designing crochet.

Based on the information that we have all seen, this is but another unfortunate event illustrating the chasm between the citizenry and their elected authority. "To Protect and to Serve." What an abstract idea, no?

Now the douchebag-y "suspect" in the video pretty much fits the description of many whom terrorize the streets of my quaint, little, college town. We call them frat-boys. Doesn't make them guilty of anything but poor taste. Were there not 2 suspects? Good thing for Frat Boy that he didn't have a "TapOut" T-shirt on, 'cause that would have definitely made him the guilty party!

What we have is finger pointing, and Kodak Kourage. And we have a lot of rationalizing. The real KO of this argument (to sum it up) was :"thumbs in pockets, not hands."

Plus ki out there!

Joe
Something folks might want to know about calls as they come into Dispatch, prior to reaching a patrol officer...

They are almost never accurate, while they never contain all the relevant and significant information. When you get a call of "two guys fighting," it usually comes from someone else who is most likely not at the scene when you arrive. In reality, on the job, it could very well be two guys fighting (two guys disturbing the peace, two guys committing battery on each other) or it could be one guy being attacked by another party (one guy committing battery, or an Assault with a Deadly Weapon, etc.). Additionally, it could be any other number of things: e.g. domestic violence, etc. You won't know until all facts have been established by you on the scene. Prior to doing that, it is good operation to establish scene safety first. The worst thing an officer can do when arriving on scene is to hold that the call to Dispatch got it right.

Toward that end, when the officer pulls up, and if that first guy that comes to the car is the second party, it is more likely that he is not the primary element in establishing scene safety. The other guy is. This is because the first guy already, on his own, provides compliant behavior. At the same time, as far as putting the crime scene all together, it is not likely that the first guy that comes to the police car is the primary aggressor or even an equal aggressor (also demonstrated by his behavior). Add to that the fact that the other officer on scene is already giving his attention to the other party - the other party that is all amped up with non-compliant behavior - it makes policing sense to give primary attention to the second party (the guy that gets taken down). Once he's compliant and/or in control, the investigation would/should continue - which is not seen in the video clip - but not until then.

On another note: The totality of the suspect being non-compliant and/or an officer safety issue is not solely covered by his hands/thumbs being in his pocket. He is demonstrating a whole lot of other officer safety issues. However, that said, from my view, it looks like he puts his right hand in his pocket at 00:54 seconds. Additionally, and nevertheless, should one believe it is only his thumbs that are in his pockets: putting your thumbs in your pocket while keeping the remainder of your hand outside of the pocket is the way you conceal and draw a tactical folder (knife). In many ways, under certain garment designs, that hand position should make an officer more nervous than the hand fully in the pocket.

This video shows how to draw a tactical folder - you can see the thumbing technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOJjmvzN04A

This video provides a little more context on the policing situation regarding establishing scene safety in situations like the Vegas video. The pics of the knife wound are reported to be on an officer that was attacked by a knife-wielding suspect. (warning: graphic):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0fPL4f3Eqc

dmv

Last edited by senshincenter : 11-21-2008 at 03:13 AM.

David M. Valadez
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Old 11-21-2008, 03:19 AM   #79
Joe Jutsu
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
Something folks might want to know about calls as they come into Dispatch, prior to reaching a patrol officer...

They are almost never accurate, while they never contain all the relevant and significant information. When you get a call of "two guys fighting," it usually comes from someone else who is most likely not at the scene when you arrive. In reality, on the job, it could very well be two guys fighting (two guys disturbing the peace, two guys committing battery on each other) or it could be one guy being attacked by another party (one guy committing battery, or an Assault with a Deadly Weapon, etc.). Additionally, it could be any other number of things: e.g. domestic violence, etc. You won't know until all facts have been established by you on the scene. Prior to doing that, it is good operation to establish scene safety first. The worst thing an officer can do when arriving on scene is to hold that the call to Dispatch got it right.

Toward that end, when the officer pulls up, and if that first guy that comes to the car is the second party, it is more likely that he is not the primary element in establishing scene safety. The other guy is. This is because the first guy already, on his own, provides compliant behavior. At the same time, as far as putting the crime scene all together, it is not likely that the first guy that comes to the police car is the primary aggressor or even an equal aggressor (also demonstrated by his behavior). Add to that the fact that the other officer on scene is already giving his attention to the other party - the other party that is all amped up with non-compliant behavior - it makes policing sense to give primary attention to the second party (the guy that gets taken down). Once he's compliant and/or in control, the investigation would/should continue - which is not seen in the video clip - but not until then.

On another note: The totality of the suspect being non-compliant and/or an officer safety issue is not solely covered by his hands/thumbs being in his pocket. He is demonstrating a whole lot of other officer safety issues. However, that said, from my view, it looks like he puts his right hand in his pocket at 00:54 seconds. Additionally, and nevertheless, should one believe it is only his thumbs that are in his pockets: putting your thumbs in your pocket while keeping the remainder of your hand outside of the pocket is the way you conceal and draw a tactical folder (knife). In many ways, under certain garment designs, that hand position should make an officer more nervous than the hand fully in the pocket.

This video shows how to draw a tactical folder - you can see the thumbing technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOJjmvzN04A

This video provides a little more context on the policing situation regarding establishing scene safety in situations like the Vegas video. The pics of the knife wound are reported to be on an officer that was attacked by a knife-wielding suspect. (warning: graphic):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0fPL4f3Eqc

dmv
Thank you for your continuing effort to clear up the legality of this issue. I think you only serve to support my argument of what a slippery slope it really is out there.

So as an officer armed with bludgeoning, chemical, and projectile weapons, he is also allowed to take down a possibly ornery but relatively passive "suspect" with a potentially lethal takedown (aggrandized worse-cased scenario, I know) without asking him/her if they have a weapon? And he has Kevlar on too? Where's the back-up? Where's the necessity for immediate action? Who's the scary one here?

I find the rally-ing call that some of you out there would have done more to be completely disturbing.

Last edited by Joe Jutsu : 11-21-2008 at 03:32 AM.
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Old 11-21-2008, 03:49 AM   #80
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
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Which was my point; those guarding the sheep are thinking more like killers and less like officers of the peace. I certainly hope our social workers do not bring that attitude to their profession. Again, it cant be easy out there as an officer, but the mindset of us vs. them is in my opinion bordering on antisocial.
Hey we're on the same page cool.
I agree. Lions shouldn't guard sheep. Sheep dogs should.
Police officers with an us vs them mindset IS toxic for sure. I think it's a hazzard that comes with the job. SOldiers have it too. They need to frce themselves to not treat every person they meet as someone waiting to place an IED under them, even though thats exactly what happens. Shake someones hand by day, at night they dig an ied into the side of the road.
It's stressful. IMO police officers are under constantly stress. Day in and day out they work with the scum of society (among the good people). Getting lied to by everyone (Oh I was speeding? I didn't notice..). Psychologically I think that's what pushesthese guys to an us vs them attitude. Some thing they need to identify.

Quote:
I didnt say it took three of them to hold her down, I said it took three of them (only one verbal instructing) to make her comply; no comply, in a police station, shackled....taser.
Sorry. Tasers are a whole different argument, I've seen 100 pages of posts about tasers. Theres some of my friends here who I would taser if I could get my hands one one

Something else to consider (generally) about police officers. Yes I do think they are doing a whole social worker thing, but they ALSO are now dealing with criminals using hardcore weapons like assault rifles. Dealing with ex military types who are marksmen and experts at fighting in houses and city blocks.
Police officer with a 9mm who shoots it on a range say twice a year and a disgrunteled Iraq vet with an AK, armor piercing rounds and a years worth of two way range time in a city street setting. Scary stuff.

The point I'm going for is that when it comes to use of force police run the gambit. From a guy just laid of from his job who just drank too much and is taking it out on the anonymous face of a uniform or a disgrunteled guy who wants to commit suicide by cop.

Quote:
Nick Pittson;219854

Mr. Cereijo,
I do not have my copy of Budo here at work, but I suspect that just before the quote you supplied, uke was doing something....my guess was he was [B
wrote:
attacking[/b] nage, not refusing to follow orders, or just standing around minding his own business.
Refusing to follow lawful direction can be the prelude to an attack too though. Depending on the situation I;m not going to wait until someone attacks me if there is implied intent.

If I'm in an altercation with someone and they say to me "Look man I don't wanna fight" 4 times out of 5 they're gearing up to throw a punch.

I've found that when someone refuses to follow orders/direction often they are expecting the person giving said direction to become more forcefull in their request. This in a way validates them becoming angry and/or violent. People need a push so they force the police officer (or whoever) to push them over the edge enabling them to become more violent.

A woman in a locked room with 4 cops. Is it logical that she becomes violent? No, but the more she resists and works herself up the more violent she makes herself. Then she gets tased or roughly held down etc.. and screams police brutality.

Sometimes police DO go over the line of course. I'm sure we can find hundreds of youtube videos as examples of both.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 11-21-2008, 04:10 PM   #81
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
Joe Proffitt wrote: View Post
Thank you for your continuing effort to clear up the legality of this issue. I think you only serve to support my argument of what a slippery slope it really is out there.

So as an officer armed with bludgeoning, chemical, and projectile weapons, he is also allowed to take down a possibly ornery but relatively passive "suspect" with a potentially lethal takedown (aggrandized worse-cased scenario, I know) without asking him/her if they have a weapon? And he has Kevlar on too? Where's the back-up? Where's the necessity for immediate action? Who's the scary one here?

I find the rally-ing call that some of you out there would have done more to be completely disturbing.
My assumption would be that you have never been in this position of making a tactical decision.

Ask if he has a weapon?

He was asked a simple question to remove his hands from his pocket. The officer even gave him the reason why. "You are making me nervous".

Okay, so now ask him if he has a weapon?

"Why yes I do officer, and it is right....HERE!"

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Old 11-21-2008, 06:57 PM   #82
mickeygelum
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
Where's the back-up? Where's the necessity for immediate action? Who's the scary one here?
You are...The officer prudently reacted with reasonable non-lethal force to a potentially lethal encounter and you are complaining.

Realistically, I order an individual to put his hands in full view, and he reaches into his pockets, he will be at gunpoint.

The next action will be decided by him.

A LEO is charged with the responsibility to protect life, limb and property...including his own.

This occurred in MetroLVPD, you are not in Kansas anymore...

Mickey
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Old 11-21-2008, 07:10 PM   #83
senshincenter
 
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Trying to tie this back into Aikido in uncontrolled environments in a bit more general way...

Kevin's point about being in a position where a tactical decision has to be made at the speed of life is key here. While it's true peace officers are part social worker, etc., they still have to make these kinds of tactical decisions daily - hourly in some cities. These decisions, the speed of life capacity to think and act on the go, to possess awareness and martial intelligence enough to not only see what most do not see, but to see that early (if not first) and to also be able to follow tactical chains of possible outcomes (like a chess master does) without being attached to any of them (should things change/when things do change), are what is needed. This is the martial skill that bring Aikido, and any art for that matter, into a realm of street viability.

This lack of interest in gaining and maintaining initiative, perhaps even a disdain and dismissal for initiative, is a luxury one in uncontrolled environments cannot afford to either keep and/or be chained by. Additionally, in our understanding of Aikido at our dojo, it's not even supposed to be present in Kihon Waza. There, as on the street, one is supposed to gain a subtle enough sensitivity to uke's intention, such that it is addressed long before it manifests itself fully in the body.

Here's one incident with even less cues than in the Vegas video - it's from the book, "Blood Lessons," chapter "Danger Cues." Again, this kind of stuff happens all of the time.

(Traffic Stop)
Lombardo cautiously returned to the 4Runner and confronted the man waiting in the passenger seat.

"Do you have an ID?" Lombardo asked.
"No."
"What is your last name?"
Stone Silence.
"What's your last name?"
No response.
"Look, before we get into your identity crisis, why don't you step out of your car."
As the passenger exited, Lombardo pinned him in the apex of the open door. "Do you have anything on your person that can hurt me?" he asked.
"This guy gave me the coldest, eeriest stare I'd ever seen," Lombardo said. "He opened his mouth as if to speak, but didn't say a word. It was the scariest response I've ever gotten to that question."
Making a split-second decision, Lombardo grabbed the passenger, forced him against the 4Runner, and handcuffed him. Within seconds, he found the guns tucked in the suspect's waistband. Moments later, the third gun was recovered from under the driver's seat.
"Those were the first firearms I'd ever pulled off someone in a vehicle. It just reinforced to me that you can't call any motor vehicle stop routine," Lombardo reported.

What I think one has to realize is that there is martial arts, martial sport, and guys fighting in the street, and then there's a whole other realm of violence. The difference between the two realms is the stakes. In the latter world, the stakes are more often permanent and irreversible than not. In this latter world, because the stakes are so potent as far as their capacity to influence several to many lives, the so-called fight happens way earlier than anyone that does not partake in this world could probably imagine. In my opinion, if you want your Aikido to be able to function in the street, this is what is most needed. Technical matters will not solve this issue at all. In the end, this is a mental/spiritual issue and nothing else.

Last edited by senshincenter : 11-21-2008 at 07:15 PM.

David M. Valadez
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Old 11-21-2008, 07:40 PM   #84
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

David wrote:

Quote:
In my opinion, if you want your Aikido to be able to function in the street, this is what is most needed. Technical matters will not solve this issue at all. In the end, this is a mental/spiritual issue and nothing else.
I could not agree more!

Might I once again remind that the suspect was apprehended and apparently not hurt. Is this endstate not important when considering Use of Force?

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Old 11-21-2008, 11:30 PM   #85
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
Joe Proffitt wrote: View Post
And he has Kevlar on too?
I'm no cop, but even I know that Kevlar doesn't cover EVERY part of your body. Even if the cop was indeed wearing Kevlar, he still had his head and neck exposed.

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Old 11-22-2008, 09:14 AM   #86
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

This thread is quite obviously polarized between "civilians" and "cops" or as charmingly called in one of the referred documents, "sheep" and "sheepdog". Here are some sheepish remarks.

* The state of affairs presented here by the "sheepdogs" is by no means universal. In London, a single case of a person being shot by police caused a major public outcry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes). Also, police in UK, generally speaking, is not equipped with firearms.
Comments regarding speed, magnitude of violence and such required from a policeman, should be seen in the context of the poster's country which is USA in most cases. It would be interesting to see opinions from members of police forces outside of North America.

* Some official statistics for the year 2006 in USA:

48 Officers were feloniously killed
66 Officers were accidently killed (automobile/motorcycle accidents, crossfires, training sessions, etc...)
376 Justifiable Homicide by Weapon, Law Enforcement
241 Justifiable Homicide by Weapon, Private Citizen

in addition:

45 The average number of people dying in one day as a result of "Slips, Trips and Falls" accidents.

sources:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2006/a...llykilled.html
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/offe...rtable_13.html
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/offe...rtable_14.html
http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d000001...6/d000006.html

* A poster suggested that there is similarity between policing and military actions. Given these numbers there is no similarity.

* One could claim that the small number of "Officers that were feloniously killed" is a direct result of the aggressive policing tactics. I do not know how to argue this rationally, but my gut feeling is that the numbers are to low for this to be true.

* As to the actions of the Las Vegas cop in the original video, what relevant statistics do we have? Well it's like this:

Officers were feloniously killed in the state of Nevada by year:
2006 1
2005 0
2004 0
2003 0
2002 0
2001 1

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2006/table1.html

So between the options of the cop exercising a healthy "sen sen no sen" or deciding up front to kick some ass, the numbers favor option B.

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Old 11-22-2008, 10:43 AM   #87
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
Joe Proffitt wrote: View Post
Thank you for your continuing effort to clear up the legality of this issue. I think you only serve to support my argument of what a slippery slope it really is out there.

So as an officer armed with bludgeoning, chemical, and projectile weapons, he is also allowed to take down a possibly ornery but relatively passive "suspect" with a potentially lethal takedown (aggrandized worse-cased scenario, I know) without asking him/her if they have a weapon? And he has Kevlar on too? Where's the back-up? Where's the necessity for immediate action? Who's the scary one here?

I find the rally-ing call that some of you out there would have done more to be completely disturbing.
It is a slippery slope to be sure: human percpetion is involved. I don't really see how any of us can pass categorical judgement on this case. Unless some of us have more information than what's evident in this thread, we're missing some potentially crucial pieces of information...there are some big time/info gaps present.
Looking at the suspect, I think I understand why the distrust on the part of the cop. That said, i think more talking probably should have been done too...but again, that route may have been firmly tried for all we know. The video is, in my not-so-humble opinion, a poor example of what we should be advertizing on COPS. That said, and while I think the legal debate is very useful, I'm beginning to wonder how this all relates to Aikido.
How does the information in this thread affect your training?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 11-22-2008, 10:59 AM   #88
Michael Hackett
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

The statistics quoted are compiled by each US agency and submitted to the FBI. There is a companion document that describes briefly how each officer was killed. In most years domestic violence, traffic stops and the execution of search and arrest warrants lead the list of activities.

In my personal experience, 95% of the people I came in contact with on duty were decent, law abiding folks. Sometimes they were under a lot of stress and sometimes had made an uncharacteristic mistake. The other 5% were truly dangerous human beings, perhaps sociopathic. The problem is that they look the same and you can't tell until you've spent a few minutes with them. Then add in alcohol and/or drugs and it becomes more understandable why we are so wary. The last person to physically attack me was a fifty-something female schoolteacher who had been badly beaten by her schollteacher husband. She tried to take my head off with a frying pan as we arrested her drunken husband. Just another night on patrol.

Some of us are mean and violent, but thankfully we get forced out of the business. Some of us make mistakes and over-react and get punished. Most of us do our jobs honorably, add a little value to our community and go home to our loved ones at the end of watch.

Michael
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Old 11-22-2008, 03:36 PM   #89
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

I think of myself as a "citizen" - even when on duty, I feel that I am part of the community. I aim to always be courteous with those I am serving as a peace officer - with nearly ever person thanking me for the duty I performed, even suspects/arrestees, even arrestees I've had to use force on to control. For me, this is not in opposition to remaining tactically wise. The main two reasons for this are: 1) As much of a tactical situation happens in the pre-said, pre-moved, and the pre-seen, courteous speech and action can happen along side of these things - in many ways working to distract a suspect from understand one's tactics (which is good). And, 2) When everything is done correctly, the permanence and irreversibility of real-stakes un-controlled environments is subverted. This in turn allows one to always go from a high tactical/low courteous level to a low tactical level/high courteous level easily.

I think, if there is a division here in this thread, it is as simple as being between experience and lack-of-experience. This holds true whether it is a national one, a law enforcement one, a legal one, an Aikido one, and even a real-stakes non-controlled environment one. It's hardly between law enforcement and non-law enforcement, as many folks posting are not peace officers (regardless of what side of the debate they are coming down on).

Still, take away the uniform, the policing situation, and you are left with a simple question, by which one's Aikido can be defined and determined as street viable or not: "How early does a self-defense situation start for you?" By extension: "What tell-tale signs should I be aware of when attempting to defend myself with Aikido (or any other art)?"

In my opinion, as I said earlier, if one waits for a commonly "recognizable" attack to occur, or even a "recognizable" aggressive intent, akin to what one sees at a gross level in Kihon Waza training, one's Aikido can only translate into street practicality under the following conditions: No weapons are involved; one is not outnumbered, one is larger than his/her opponent, one is faster than his/her opponent, and/or luck is on one's side. To sum that up, as far as the martial question goes, one is only learning an Aikido that is designed to function against single opponents, who agree not to arm themselves, who are smaller and slower than you, and requires you to be lucky. No doubt, there are a lot of martial arts that seek to function under these guidelines, but if one wants something more of their Aikido, one is going to have to learn to not be shocked by how thumbs in the pocket and an open mouth can be interpreted as an attack.

On the spiritual side, should one feel that such considerations are never the aim of Aikido training... For me, Aikido's spiritual aims, like any, are fruitless if they can only exist on the mountain top, away from the real world. For example, when it comes to spiritual maturity, I would see more of it in a person that can go from violence and be detached enough to immediately come back down to courteous/compassionate behavior than in a person that practices such control only within the confines of the dojo's controlled environment. I feel this way because for a spiritual tradition to be viable, it must never look to disconnect itself from the social world. It must always keep its feet on the ground. When it doesn't, when it cannot, it's in the high period of its existence - the time right before its fall into utter uselessness. If you want to see how mature you are in your Aikido practice, in my opinion, like the old spiritual quests of old, venture into the realm of law enforcement and work to harmonize all of these elements into a spiritual wellness that supports not only you in times of need, but also the people you are serving and protecting, the suspects you are having to control, and your family, friends, and co-workers that depend upon you remaining centered at all times.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 11-22-2008, 06:29 PM   #90
sorokod
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Michael

Thank you for a post that conveys some of the complexities associated with your difficult and important job.

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Old 11-23-2008, 09:38 PM   #91
tenkan
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Racism, police brutality=takedown 2 points for the cops!
Sign the perp up for the white college fund.
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Old 11-24-2008, 04:43 AM   #92
Stefan Stenudd
 
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"Realism"

Regarding realism and aikido, did you see my column:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15062

I thought that a lot of you guys would comment it, tearing it to pieces

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
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Old 11-24-2008, 06:41 AM   #93
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Stefan,

I just started to read it. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I will look it over today. I want to make sure I understand it correctly before I offer comment as it is very obvious you have thought this out and written it very well.

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Old 11-24-2008, 08:42 AM   #94
Guilty Spark
 
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
Mark Hensle wrote: View Post
Racism, police brutality=takedown 2 points for the cops!
Sign the perp up for the white college fund.
Did you post this while drinking?

Use of force is a tricky thing for warriors.

Use too much and you're ass is in big trouble.
Use too little and you might get killed.

Last edited by Guilty Spark : 11-24-2008 at 08:45 AM.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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