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Old 11-14-2008, 06:12 PM   #26
Michael Hackett
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

As I mentioned previously, this was only part of a segment from "Cops". The full segment showed him involved in a scuffle just immediately before the sergeant arrived although I don't remember the details too well. The suspect was drunk and refused to take his hands from his pockets. I thought at the time the force used was legal and justified by California standards. I can't speak to Nevada standards, but the force used was consistent with established federal case law standards in my opinion. I base my opinion on over thirty years of law enforcement experience and several events where I disciplined officers for excessive force. With only the short clip to rely on, I can certainly see why a viewer would be concerned. YMMV.

Michael
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Old 11-14-2008, 07:48 PM   #27
mathewjgano
 
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
As to the technique, it is applied to unresisting and unskilled person, so yeah it works, so what? Imagine this was a dojo and you are witnessing a yudansha smashing a first time student into the mat.
I wouldn't assume the guy was unskilled, but I agree the use of force seemed excessive. I wasn't commenting on whether or not it worked. I just thought it looked like kata, partly because "uke" didn't really seem to be offering much of an attack.
I think it's a good point that we don't have the fullest context, though. We don't know much about the earlier behavior of the guy, toxicology reports, etc. I believe jobs of power such as the police should be held to almost ridiculously high standards, but without knowing more, I just have a hard time condemning this officer. I think the 2 videos I've seen beg the question of proper conduct though, and I'm curious if any reports were filed.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 11-14-2008, 07:51 PM   #28
salim
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

In the clip below, sensei Takeno Takafumi applies a similar technique at about 0:52 of the video. If you pause the video, you can see how he lunges into the attacker, leaning forward to insure he goes down. Almost looks like atemi applied also. Check it out.

http://www.duman6.gen.tr/izle.php?video=l6Y3WZuUtVo
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Old 11-15-2008, 03:21 AM   #29
sorokod
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
As I mentioned previously, this was only part of a segment from "Cops". The full segment showed him involved in a scuffle just immediately before the sergeant arrived although I don't remember the details too well. The suspect was drunk and refused to take his hands from his pockets. I thought at the time the force used was legal and justified by California standards. I can't speak to Nevada standards, but the force used was consistent with established federal case law standards in my opinion. I base my opinion on over thirty years of law enforcement experience and several events where I disciplined officers for excessive force. With only the short clip to rely on, I can certainly see why a viewer would be concerned. YMMV.
I have no skills to asses the legality of the cop's actions, and they may very well have been legal. On the other hand, I am glad not to be a member of a community that legalizes this magnitude of violence against suspects.

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Old 11-15-2008, 06:54 PM   #30
Anjisan
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Angry Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

To me I see Irimi but no Aiki, no blending at all. The opportunity to use Aikido was when he was standing there with an opportunity to speak with the guy (or to blend with an attack if there was one or an "imminent" one). From that point forward it is the officer just being unprofessional and excessive. If the subject cracked his head or received a concussion--oh yea, the lawyers are going after the deep pockets of LVPD and he is the means to get at them. I am in law enforcement and that would not fly in my agency.
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Old 11-16-2008, 04:06 PM   #31
Niccolo Gallio
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Well, in my humble opinion we should not speak of Aikido watching the original (i.e. posted in the first post of this thread) video, as the only thing that - very remotely - resembles aikido to me is the second scene where an elder man dressed in hakama pants repeatedly slams his ukemi on the mat.
It may not reflect your views but where I train we pose great consideration of the health of ukemi and we avoid atemi here possible because we feel we must always strive to achieve the desired result in the least violent way possible.
I can understand that the person in yellow shirt may have all the reasons to attack (yes I think he is attacking) the other guy, but I would not call it Aikido, really.

sincerely

niccolo'

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Old 11-16-2008, 04:12 PM   #32
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

I don't call it anything other than what you see in the video. It is what it is, a guy in a yellow shirt taking down another guy.

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Old 11-16-2008, 05:52 PM   #33
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Well, at least the guy wasn't taken down Texas style.

The technique performed by LVPD officer has more "aikido" in it than the one used by the texan officer, imho of course.

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Old 11-17-2008, 02:14 PM   #34
Michael Douglas
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Ain't no streetfight, someone's been reading a stupid scrolling title I guess ...
I haven't read the thread YET, I'd like to comment without reference to other posts because the BASTARD in the yellow shirt should be locked up for unprovoked assault with intent. Lucky the victim didn't smash his head open on the tarmac after being throat-struck and thrown down.
Shame there weren't any real cops around to shoot the guy in yellow. ( I said real )

Now I'll go read what others have posted and find some idiots who might be justifying that attack.
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Old 11-17-2008, 04:08 PM   #35
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Ain't no streetfight, someone's been reading a stupid scrolling title I guess ...
I haven't read the thread YET, I'd like to comment without reference to other posts because the BASTARD in the yellow shirt should be locked up for unprovoked assault with intent. Lucky the victim didn't smash his head open on the tarmac after being throat-struck and thrown down.
Shame there weren't any real cops around to shoot the guy in yellow. ( I said real )

Now I'll go read what others have posted and find some idiots who might be justifying that attack.
Michael,

What are you trying to say? Don't hold back now, tell us what you really think....

PS - I agree.

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Old 11-17-2008, 04:51 PM   #36
mickeygelum
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

SWEET !

This is a classic...I was wondering when someone would put it here.

Sucks to be a drunk claiming you have a gun. Too bad the whole incident was not posted, there is quite a bit missing.

Quote:
....the BASTARD in the yellow shirt should be locked up for unprovoked assault with intent.
..Huh?


Mickey

Last edited by mickeygelum : 11-17-2008 at 04:57 PM. Reason: forgot tags
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Old 11-17-2008, 05:44 PM   #37
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXXzvpnkvm0
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Old 11-17-2008, 05:51 PM   #38
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Ain't no streetfight, someone's been reading a stupid scrolling title I guess ...
I haven't read the thread YET, I'd like to comment without reference to other posts because the BASTARD in the yellow shirt should be locked up for unprovoked assault with intent. Lucky the victim didn't smash his head open on the tarmac after being throat-struck and thrown down.
Shame there weren't any real cops around to shoot the guy in yellow. ( I said real )

Now I'll go read what others have posted and find some idiots who might be justifying that attack.
Would you have preferred this outcome?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX1TC...eature=related
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Old 11-17-2008, 05:52 PM   #39
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Amazing the perspective a little more information provides.

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Old 11-17-2008, 08:37 PM   #40
salim
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Ain't no streetfight, someone's been reading a stupid scrolling title I guess ...
I haven't read the thread YET, I'd like to comment without reference to other posts because the BASTARD in the yellow shirt should be locked up for unprovoked assault with intent. Lucky the victim didn't smash his head open on the tarmac after being throat-struck and thrown down.
Shame there weren't any real cops around to shoot the guy in yellow. ( I said real )

Now I'll go read what others have posted and find some idiots who might be justifying that attack.
We need to keep our streets safe from thugs and murders. That was not a nice guy who was not cooperating with the law. You have to see the entire video before you speak.
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Old 11-18-2008, 02:15 AM   #41
sorokod
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
We need to keep our streets safe from thugs and murders. That was not a nice guy who was not cooperating with the law. You have to see the entire video before you speak.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/296144...as_vegas_heat/

I think that this is the entire video. There is no more. No guns. No trying to hide in the crowd. Just a guy that has been pointed out by another guy.

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Old 11-18-2008, 07:02 AM   #42
Nick P.
 
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
We need to keep our streets safe from thugs and murders. That was not a nice guy who was not cooperating with the law. You have to see the entire video before you speak.
Salim,
Was that the point you were trying to make when you posted originally?

If so....

"Hi everyone,

I've been noticing an increase in the number of posts consisting basically of links to videos (eg to YouTube). Although I can certainly understand the use of videos as a discussion point, I find videos in and of themselves more a supplement for discussions.

Therefore, I would like to ask of all of you: Rather than just posting links, please add your thoughts to the videos. For example, your thoughts could answer questions such as:
What is your interpretation of the videos?
Why are these videos important to you in the thread?
How do these videos contribute to the discussion at hand?
How do these videos reflect your own thoughts in the thread?
Please let's try to use links to videos to further discussion by using them as supplementary points to discussion rather than replacing discussion itself.

Thanks,

-- Jun"
from http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/
showthread.php?t=15008&goto=newpost

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Old 11-18-2008, 10:13 AM   #43
mathewjgano
 
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/296144...as_vegas_heat/

I think that this is the entire video. There is no more. No guns. No trying to hide in the crowd. Just a guy that has been pointed out by another guy.
Maybe it's a foolish hope or a firm idealism of "innocent until proven guilty," but I think it's important to remember the video is still not the complete picture. I'm not making excuses for the officer. "Innocent until proven guilty" should apply more to civilians than the powers that be, in my opinion, and other than the fact that the kid put his right hand back into his pocket (or so it appeared to me on the video), I don't see much of an aggressive posture coming from the suspect (a bit defiant probably). Also, at the end of the clip when the officer tells the guy to put his arms behind his back he's oblivious of the fact that he's already pinning them...he's still extending the arm over the suspects head in fact. I thought the suspect remained surprisingly calm when he replied, "I'm trying." I would have been a little angry. Then again, I would have also complied with the initial request.
Maybe our law enforcement friends can tell us how the oversight works in another thread. I'm sure it's been covered to some extent, but I know I'd appreciate learning about how it works in the different states. If indeed the facts of this issue are that the officer overstepped his boundaries, I'd be surprised if my highly litigious society didn't pounce on video footage of it. Then again, I was surprised the officers who beat Rodney King didn't get in more trouble.
Trying to tie this back into Aikido:
Technically speaking, the officer's shomen ate (it looks almost exactly like I practiced it in Shodokan) covers a lot of ground quickly and lifts the other person upward and back. He does a good job, I thought, of maintaining contact through the descent to the ground. While technically, i would call this an Aikido technique, I would also say it's not in keeping with the Ai of love O Sensei seemed to feel ought imbue Aikido, thus in that sense, it's also not an Aikido technique. I suppose it depends upon which Aikido one is talking about.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 11-18-2008, 02:19 PM   #44
salim
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
Nick Pittson wrote: View Post
Salim,
Was that the point you were trying to make when you posted originally?

If so....

"Hi everyone,

I've been noticing an increase in the number of posts consisting basically of links to videos (eg to YouTube). Although I can certainly understand the use of videos as a discussion point, I find videos in and of themselves more a supplement for discussions.

Therefore, I would like to ask of all of you: Rather than just posting links, please add your thoughts to the videos. For example, your thoughts could answer questions such as:
What is your interpretation of the videos?
Why are these videos important to you in the thread?
How do these videos contribute to the discussion at hand?
How do these videos reflect your own thoughts in the thread?
Please let's try to use links to videos to further discussion by using them as supplementary points to discussion rather than replacing discussion itself.

Thanks,

-- Jun"
from http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/
showthread.php?t=15008&goto=newpost
My intention was of two parts. First, maybe there is some Aiki in the video, although highly questionable. It really depends on your methodology of Aikido. But more importantly, keeping our streets safe from danger without causing too much harm. Really the officer could have caused a lot more harm, maybe even killed him. Officers have the power and the right to kill, if they feel there is immediate, deadly danger. Almost all cases in court, when officers kill are ruled justifiable. When an officer ask you to do something, no matter how stupid it may be, it's better to obey as much as possible their orders.

I agree, excessive force is not what the police force should demonstrate, but we have to acknowledge that there are a lot of bad guys roaming the streets. Officers have to deal with them. I'm glad it's not my job and I hope they can catch them before they cause harm.
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Old 11-18-2008, 02:51 PM   #45
Michael Hackett
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Matthew,

Here is a general overview of use of force or misconduct oversight. While each state and agency is a little different, most are quite similar. The agency will have a use of force policy which details when force can be used and the level of force acceptable. You will often hear of the "use of force continuum" which is a graphic tool to explain the policy to officers. The UOF policies must comply with state law and federal law, but they must be more restrictive if they do differ. For example the laws authorize the use of firearms and the agency can choose to prohibit firearms. An extreme example, but it explains the concept.

Any individual may complain that an officer went too far; the "victim", witnesses, or other officers. The agency is obligated to investigate the event in two different ways. One path is a criminal investigation which could result in the officer being prosecuted criminally. The other is administrative and can result in the officer being disciplined or terminated. The two different types of investigation cannot be combined and must be separate although the administrative investigation can rely on evidence found in the criminal investigation but not the reverse. There are lots of legal reasons why that is the case and too complex to go into here.

It is common that officers are disciplined as a result of an administrative investigation and cleared in a criminal investigation. That is usually because the officer violated department policies but did not break the law.

Additionally the Civil Rights Division of the FBI investigates these kinds of events frequently. They don't need to receive a formal complaint, but can and will open an investigation from media accounts or media such as YouTube. They look at the events from the perspective of federal Civil Rights legislation and prosecute in federal criminal court.

On the civil side of the equation, officers, their department and leadership get sued by those who feel they have been the victim of excessive force fairly often and those cases are usually filed in federal court. Federal court is usually chosen because the attorney fees and costs are paid by the defendants if the plaintiff prevails in any manner. If punitive damages are awarded, the individual officer has to pay them personally as punitive damages are awarded to punish the offender. General damages are usually paid by the employing agency.

Generally all of these actions address a few issues. Was the action complained of within policy? Was it in compliance with the existing law? Those two issues alone will generally determine whether the officer will be punished by his agency or prosecuted criminally. Both of those questions can be answered in the officer's favor and a judgement in civil court can still go against him if the jury feels that the conduct was excessive.

This is actually a very brief overview of the process and I hope it helps. There are weighty textbooks on the subject and I just wanted to give you a basic understanding.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 11-18-2008, 04:20 PM   #46
sorokod
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Michael, thank you for the very informative post. Can you say something about how is a "use of force policy" is formulated?

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Old 11-18-2008, 05:14 PM   #47
Michael Hackett
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

David,

Interesting question. There are model policies available through professional organizations such as the International Association of Chiefs of Police and some agencies will adopt those with local tweaks. They can gather sample policies from areas in the same region or hire someone like me to write the policy for them. Often the policy in draft form is reviewed by legal departments and even the governing body before adoption.

I think the real question you pose is how are policies amended? Once the initial policy has been adopted, new tools are invented and new events shape the evolving policy. Let's talk about events for a moment. Perhaps the existing policy of an agency has proven just fine and adequate. Across the country a news account is published where some officer has used a tool or technique that resulted in needless suffering or tragedy. Once the Chief Executive learns the details of that event (s) he might change his local policy to prevent an occurance in his own agency. A case in point is the use of the "bar-arm choke". Years ago most agencies allowed both the bar-arm and carotid choke. Some suspects were severely injured or died as a result of the bar-arm choke and I don't personally know of any agency that currently allows it today. In order to keep abreast of these kinds of issues, police leaders follow reports in legal journals, read professional journals, and attend professional conferences.

On the other hand, new tools are developed and officers urge their adoption. In my early years MACE was the hot ticket item. Now we have OC (pepper spray) and the TASER device. The agency will research the item pretty thoroughly and then decide whether it should be included in the UOF policy and where it should fit on the UOF continuum. The host of items is endless and some are rejected, some are approved for general use and some are adopted for special uses. An example would be that LAPD did not have rifles in patrol cars until after the North Hollywood bank robbery and now most agencies have armed their patrol cars with rifles in addition to the shotgun.

There is a constant quest to find non-lethal or low-lethal weapons for police purposes and a lot of research is going on today. The Los Angeles Sheriff's Department has an R&D unit attached to their Special Enforcement Bureau to do just that and they are constantly testing new products as they are developed. Regardless of whether the force used is by empty hand techniques or by a specific weapon, the issue remains proper use in terms of time, place, context, and event. That goes back to my other lengthy response about oversight.

Sorry to be so long-winded, but this stuff is just like Aikido - it's simple, but it ain't easy.

Michael
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Old 11-18-2008, 11:24 PM   #48
hapkidoike
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
. . . Officers have the power and the right to kill, if they feel there is immediate, deadly danger. . .
Salim, I take issue with your use of the word 'right' here. Cops have a job, with a job comes resposibilites. Sometimes the police have a responsibility to use deadly force, but they don't have a right to it. They get paid to "serve & protect" the citizenry (I put that in quotes because I rarely see the police serving or protecting anybody, although it does happen). It is an important distinction. If one has a right it is a moral entitlement (right to life, right to libery, etc.). A cop does not have a moral entitlement to 'kill people', although he does have a right to defend himself which may envolve killing folks, and a responsibility to the state (or whatever jurisdiction he works for) to protect the citizenry.

speaking of cop videos I always thought this was a good example of one. Nobody gets hurt and the 'anarchist' achives his goal. I have heard reports that it was staged by the police to give justification for what they ended up doing at the RNC. The police have done that before, at least in Canada.

Later,
Bettis

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Old 11-19-2008, 08:17 AM   #49
salim
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Quote:
Isaac Bettis wrote: View Post
Salim, I take issue with your use of the word 'right' here. Cops have a job, with a job comes resposibilites. Sometimes the police have a responsibility to use deadly force, but they don't have a right to it. They get paid to "serve & protect" the citizenry (I put that in quotes because I rarely see the police serving or protecting anybody, although it does happen). It is an important distinction. If one has a right it is a moral entitlement (right to life, right to libery, etc.). A cop does not have a moral entitlement to 'kill people', although he does have a right to defend himself which may envolve killing folks, and a responsibility to the state (or whatever jurisdiction he works for) to protect the citizenry.

speaking of cop videos I always thought this was a good example of one. Nobody gets hurt and the 'anarchist' achives his goal. I have heard reports that it was staged by the police to give justification for what they ended up doing at the RNC. The police have done that before, at least in Canada.

Later,
Bettis
I agree with you in theory. But the reality is judges and courts protect the irresponsible killings from police. That's why I said, they have the right. The legal system is setup to allow them to kill you when they fill they should. Sure some are found guilty and are charged. But the overwhelming majority go unpunished.

Until the local governments take away the power of the police enforcement agencies in America (meaning severe control of the use of deadly force), we will continue to see killings from police that are unjustifiable.

Take heed and obey the orders that the police give you. Otherwise suffer the consequences. That's what happen to the guy in the video (he was asked three times to remove his hand from his pocket), he failed to obey orders. He could have been killed. Don't play stupid or a badass with the police, they can kill you.

Last edited by salim : 11-19-2008 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:42 AM   #50
sorokod
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Re: YouTube: Aikido in a real street fight.

Salim

You are describing an adversarial system gone mad with police on one hand and civilians on the other trying to get away with as much as possible, constrained only by the courts.

I would not wish on anyone to live in such a society.

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