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Old 02-17-2002, 03:15 PM   #26
guest1234
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Thank you, Sean and Rehse Sensei...does the preference for Shodokan (rather than Tomiki) Aikido apply in the US as well? I ask only because the dojos I called or visited called themselves Tomiki Aikido...or do some places so this just because the rest of us ignorant fools don't know what Shodokan is?

Last edited by guest1234 : 02-17-2002 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 02-17-2002, 03:43 PM   #27
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
Thank you, Sean and Rehse Sensei...does the preference for Shobokan (rather than Tomiki) Aikido apply in the US as well? I ask only because the dojos I called or visited called themselves Tomiki Aikido...or do some places so this just because the rest of us ignorant fools don't know what Shodokan is?
Hi Colleen;

The Japan Aikido Association (USA) refer to themselves as Shodokan (http://www.tomiki.org). For historical, fragmental, or other reasons there are groups which consider themselves Tomiki groups rather than Shodokan and others which say there were influenced by Tomiki. A lot of this is due to when Shodokan Honbu was created - Tomiki's ideas having some history before that point. I would say that the Shodokan term is the correct one but that no one is going to get beat over the head if they say Tomiki Aikido. In fact the international body contains the word Tomiki rather than Shodokan. Easier that way in the search for wa (harmony).

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-17-2002, 05:18 PM   #28
shihonage
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
And just so no one misinterprets my comment on the large student in Carter Sensei's class (oh, never on this forum ), the student was not being obnoxious to me. While I consider myself of AVERAGE height , at 110 pounds many of the larger males, in every dojo I've been to, have at one time or another realized they can pick me up and use me as a shield, or even a weapon , often in randori. Even in the kindest, most gentle dojos, there seems to be something funny in doing this...and it is often a great 'E' ticket ride for me.
The above paragraph had me laughing for a while. That's pretty funny.
No offense.
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Old 02-17-2002, 07:50 PM   #29
Dean H.
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[quote]Originally posted by ca
[b]Hi Matthew,

If it is any consolation, those who are intolerant of "aiki arts other than O Sensei's" are usually equally intolerant of styles of Aikido descended from O Sensei, but not their own particular one. Intolerant people are unfortuanately in abundance these days....

Thank you for your tolerant, experienced,
and even-handed responses here.
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Old 02-17-2002, 08:14 PM   #30
guest1234
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Quote:
Originally posted by shihonage


The above paragraph had me laughing for a while. That's pretty funny.
No offense.
Yeah, luckily they are kind enough to usually just swing me around to keep other ukes at bay, or hold me in front to adsorb the shinai wacks, and have never actually tossed me into the pack. One of my favorite partners, when he feels he's messed up the technique past recovery, just sighs and throws me over his shoulders. It's more embarassing when I'm nage and get lifted up (rats, so much for weight underside...sigh).
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Old 02-18-2002, 08:25 AM   #31
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Wow. Good Thread.

I really think there is tolerance in most aikido groups for other aikido groups, but, it is a tolerance born from believing what you do is "best" (in quotes because it is open for interpretation by the knit-pickers out there . Face it, deep down inside if you thought another style of Aikido was superior to your own...would you not pursue it?

I was Aikikai affiliated for 10 years, then I did the unthinkable. I became a student of one of Tohei Koichi Sensei's former students (though not Ki Society). Because I believe it is the best for me.

I guess another possible example of Aikido Elitism would be the Aiki-Expo. Besides a few people from other arts (i.e. karate, kobudo, jujutsu) everyone is either Aikikai affiliated or Yoshinkan. I asked Stan Pranin about this and he said he did invite ONE high ranking Ki Society instructor who declined.

Is this elitism in your eyes? Or am I just an over-sensitive?

Jun, way to extend positive ki

Mike Ellefson
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Old 02-18-2002, 09:08 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
And just so no one misinterprets my comment on the large student in Carter Sensei's class (oh, never on this forum ), the student was not being obnoxious to me. While I consider myself of AVERAGE height , at 110 pounds many of the larger males, in every dojo I've been to, have at one time or another realized they can pick me up and use me as a shield, or even a weapon , often in randori. Even in the kindest, most gentle dojos, there seems to be something funny in doing this...and it is often a great 'E' ticket ride for me.
Colleen -

Don't worry, or get upset about being used that way in randori. I've used people (literally) over twice your weight as weapons/shields in randori. When you can lock on sankyo, with someone who's 6-7 and 240, and brandish him as a giant bokken, it's amazing how much easier randori becomes. Isn't that right Magma?

************************
...then again, that's just me.
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Old 02-18-2002, 09:19 AM   #33
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Re: Anti-Aiki Elitism

Quote:
Originally posted by mornmd
Frequently, I have seen negative posts about NGA
I'm afraid I haven't had time to read most of this thread, but I think I understand where this may come from.
The first time I heard about NGA, the explanation given of the style implied that other styles of aikido were deficient with regards to atemi or whatever, and sort of glibly implied that mixing in other arts "fixed" this. (I've seen many descriptions that sound like the art was derived by somebody sticking pins into technique lists from aikido, karate or whatever.)
So taking this (bad) description into account and that it's apparently not done outside the US (ie in Japan), I was a bit sceptical for awhile.

When I discovered more about the guy who started NGA than that he was "a contemporary for O'Sensei" (so was my grandad), the scepticism was replaced by being quite impressed. Or at least respecting it.
andrew
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Old 02-18-2002, 09:39 AM   #34
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Re: Re: Anti-Aiki Elitism

Quote:
Originally posted by andrew
When I discovered more about the guy who started NGA than that he was "a contemporary for O'Sensei" ....
I was a bit curuious about that. In one of the above posts it states that
Morita, a contemporary of O'Sensei who trained under Yoshida Kitaro in Daito Ryu as well as several other arts. There are many similar techniques to O'Sensei's aikido in NGA which can....
I'm assuming like Ueshiba M., Yoshida Kitaro was an advanced student of Takeda? Really like to know what comtempory actually means.

Is there a web site which outlines the history of these people?

Sorry found it - god I love Google.
http://nihongoshinaikido.com/page2.html




Last edited by PeterR : 02-18-2002 at 09:43 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-18-2002, 10:27 AM   #35
Magma
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Confused I am bokken

Yes, I have been bokken for cbrf4zr2's randori before.

But then again, I have sent him tumbling into an uke pile with one of his fellow attackers when it was my turn in the barrel.

From what I've been hearing and reading, NG Aikido is in very lean years (if not declining). Personally, I think it's sad when any martial system is lost for lack of people to practice it and transmit it to the next generation... even if that art is a copy-cat art that uses the name of "Aikido" without actually being Aikido.

Just kidding. Wow, am I just kidding.
Or am I?
No, really, I am.


......

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 02-18-2002, 11:05 AM   #36
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It's not the being thrown, or made to move on my tippy toes in sankyo, it's the realization as I'm picked up off my feet altogether, and then carried around the mat and swung at the other ukes like a wet towel that makes me admit I may not be quite as tall as I think I am... But I still maintain that 5'5" is AVERAGE , it's just that everyone else seems to be overtall...
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Old 02-18-2002, 11:29 AM   #37
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Oh, and about the Expo...I wouldn't call it elitist as long as the non-represented styles are not put down by the Expo organizers. I would have prefered a bit more variation, having signed up early I thought others would be added later and that the early names just reflected Mr Pranin's style preference (understandable and not unexpected). Now I know that it not going to be the case, but I'm still excited about it. And considering his roots, and the strong belief from that style that they are keepers of the flame...well, in that light it is remarkable in the variation of those styles that will be there. I am glad to hear he invited a Ki Society instructor (I hadn't heard that before), sad that they declined, it would have added to the event, I think. And a Shodokan ( ) instructor, that would have been fun to try as well...as it is, I have no idea where he is going to put everyone at UNLV...very ambitious.

I can't think of any event where you get some of everything, and the Expo looks to be no different. Some variation, but not something from EVERY column, still a good list to choose from. Speaking of a fun mix, it looks like Summer Camp in the Rockies will also offer a nice variety this year.
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Old 02-18-2002, 02:14 PM   #38
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Dojo of Aiki Fruit Loops

Now just to be me and not directed towards anyone, more or less. Definitely not directed towards NGA.

Suppose a dojo called itself Aikido of XXXXXX and was made up of a bunch of folks who spent most of their class time preparing for the inevitable confrontation with the Nenaurians from Neptune. Class time was spent doing stuff that any self-respecting Aikido practitioner would at best describe as

a bunch of Fruit Loops got spilled on the mat, more came along, and that is the result.

Oh well, all Aikido is good aikido, and they've got Aiki or Aikido in the name so therefore it must be good Aikido.
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Old 02-18-2002, 03:22 PM   #39
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I'm not sure how much experience one needs in order to declare any Aikido not good or real Aikido. I am slow, admittedly, but it took several visits to each dojo I considered joining to decide if I fit in, and I know that my not fitting in is no indication of the quality of Aikido there... it is just an indication on how I felt there. Gosh, how much longer would it take to know if the Aikido was good?

Other dojos I attended much longer, to be sure if it was a way I could be comfortable growing in---and the instructors I cannot follow, it does not mean theirs is not good or real Aikido, it is just not for me. It takes a great deal of--- what is the word I'm searching for?-- to be so certain you would know what constitutes real and good as an absolute standard. Just how long does it take to know what is real? How long would you train in the Neptunian (or whatever) dojo before you could declare it unfit, or are you able to do that without even a visit?

If the use of Aiki in the Neptune dojo name is bothersome, well, which came first, Aiki jujitsu or Aikido? good thing they didn't trademark then...

I know you are just being you, and don't mean this against NGA, but for any who might want to apply it to them, why not try it first? Take a look at some of the photos on their webpages...see anything you recognise? The names were in English, and numbered, so I don't recall them now, but ikkyo was similar to what I've seen in several styles, as was nikyo and sankyo (and koshinage ) and kotegaeshi... shihonage was, as I recall, more like a jujitsu version I've since seen, but it was a while ago and my memory is not the best (and it was shown to me after class by a junior student, wasn't one of the things taught while I was there)...anyway, if I hadn't been warned before starting, I would have figured it was no different than the Aikido we all know and love (whatever that good and true version is)... but with blocking drills that I just figured was something I hadn't learned yet back home, and which were kind of fun, and a very spirited randori...
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Old 02-18-2002, 03:52 PM   #40
Erik
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So politically correct.

Time to slap on the old 7th dan (I'm a modest fellow), declare myself to be a practitioner of Karategata Aikido founded by Warui Fuka in the late 16th century. Fuka sensei discovered his art while meditating on the depth of caves. It puzzled him greatly that there were, well, such a thing as caves. After much meditation, deliberation, and no small quantity of sake, he declared himself to have mastered kouki. From there it was a mere baby-step to the mastery of aiki which grew into new meaning and achieved new depths under Fuka Sensei's guidance. And so, Karategata Aikido was formed.

Our motto: If it has the name, it must be good!

PS: I'm assuming I butchered my attempt to butcher the Japanese language.
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Old 02-18-2002, 04:07 PM   #41
Erik
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One more thing. The secrets of Karategata Aikido are more quickly learned through cash payments. Fuka Sensei understands that spreading the essence of your being in $499 increments is one of the hidden secrets of the caves.
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Old 02-18-2002, 04:16 PM   #42
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Some one mentioned that several Daito Ryu schools in Japan refer to themselves as Aikido - I really don't think that the inheritors of Ueshiba M. have exclusive domain to the the name. It is a little bit too generic. On one hand I wish they could since it would help make things clearer, yet on the other hand holders of the name could declare that only approved styles could be called Aikido which would make things more unclear.

Before we get to carried away with Nenaurians Goshin Aikido please remember that there is some pretty poor Aikido out there that do trace their lineage through Ueshiba M.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-18-2002, 05:12 PM   #43
shihonage
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
But I still maintain that 5'5" is AVERAGE , it's just that everyone else seems to be overtall...
Your usage of that evil smiley keeps cracking me up.
Haha.
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Old 02-18-2002, 05:18 PM   #44
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
Before we get to carried away with Nenaurians Goshin Aikido please remember that there is some pretty poor Aikido out there that do trace their lineage through Ueshiba M.
Yup!

The point I'm attempting to make, and you appear to as well, is that just because it calls itself Aikido don't necessarily make it good.

I've heard it said, and more than once, that all Aikido is good.

So sorry, that is incorrect.
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Old 02-18-2002, 08:55 PM   #45
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And those that decide someone's Aikido is bad before experiencing it demonstrate prejudice, which is also incorrect.

Those that merely repeat prejudiced views they've heard others before them say, without any attempt at evaluation, waste the mind they were given.

Those that refuse to experience things that are new, because it may be uncomfortable, never grow.

Oh, and Shihonage, those who've trained with me know there is only one way to rile me up more than call me short ( AVERAGE!!!)--- and that is to make fun of another Aikido style within hearing distance--- hence the face that so amuses you...
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Old 02-19-2002, 07:10 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
And those that decide someone's Aikido is bad before experiencing it demonstrate prejudice, which is also incorrect.
All Aikido is bad!

or

All Aikido is good!

Which one is prejudice?

Quote:
Those that merely repeat prejudiced views they've heard others before them say, without any attempt at evaluation, waste the mind they were given.
If I'm attempting to evaluate unbiasedly, then some Aikido is going to be bad Aikido and some Aikido is going to be good Aikido based on whatever my criteria are.

Quote:
Those that refuse to experience things that are new, because it may be uncomfortable, never grow.
There's a big orange red bridge not too far from me. It would be a seriously new thing for me to jump off it mid-span. Rumor has it that the landing can be really uncomfortable. Honestly, I've never talked to anyone that has tried it, nor even someone who has seen someone try it. I guess I just have a bias against jumping off tall things or more accurately landing.

It's a growth opportunity which I'm going to pass on.



Hey! I want more smiley things and it won't let me use them. I've been restricted.
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Old 02-20-2002, 05:31 AM   #47
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Statements with 'all' or 'never' or 'always' tend to be incorrect, as any college student will tell you...why I personally try to avoid them. What makes either statement prejudiced, however, is not the 'all' but the willingness to judge the Aikido as good or bad without actually 'meeting' it, based on preconcieved absolutes. A belief that one group or race makes great doctors or athletes is as prejudiced as believing another is lazy. Once you see 'those people' as individuals, you realize an 'all' statement cannot apply. So hopefully, you do not judge someone based on incorrect absolutes.

Some Aikido will be good for you, some bad for you. But what you consider bad could very well by a more experienced person, or by a vast majority of people, be considered good. Your criteria are for you. So unless you consider the kind of Aikido that you do makes you and your fellow students like Fruit Loops on a mat, then it is disrespectful to say another's is. And very possibly just as incorrect.

During my lifetime, it was said it was too dangerous for women to fly in fighters. It would be dangerous and foolish to even try. Scientists and doctors said it. Generals and congressmen said it. I was the third woman to 'fly' a full syllabus in the centrifuge at Brooks, and my hours in F-16s and F-15s were briefed before Congress during the debate that led to women in combat roles. Sometimes things that 'they' say are not true, but just plain stupid. Even very high ranking, senior people can be wrong.

Opening your mind to a style of Aikido other than your own, rather than laughing at it for no good reason, should not feel to you like jumping off the Golden Gate. Or in some ways it might be, but like jumping with wings.
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Old 02-20-2002, 11:37 AM   #48
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Quote:
But what you consider bad could very well by a more experienced person,
Or it could really be BAD but alas we're not allowed to evaluate and think are we? By the way, that is an A-grade cop out.

Quote:
or by a vast majority of people, be considered good.
Which does not presuppose that they are correct.

Quote:
Your criteria are for you. So unless you consider the kind of Aikido that you do makes you and your fellow students like Fruit Loops on a mat, then it is disrespectful to say another's is.
John Edwards keeps filling up the studio and has what some would call a successful program. Supposedly he talks to dead people but frankly he's a fraud, and not even very good at what he does, capitalizing on people when they are at their weakest. I should be respectful of what he does? What exactly is respect in this case? I suspect that even if you laid out what he does in clinical terms many would find it disrespectful but making it clear to everyone does have a positive value. I wonder how Miss Cleo is doing now that she's gone high profile in a good kind of way in my opinion.

What about the guy selling a miracle cancer cure that has been proven to have no value whatsoever other than to the person selling it? Should we be respectful of them and allow them to peddle their snake oil? What if it's actually harmful to them or even to other's? A classic example are those folks that refuse to be immunized against certain diseases which not only puts them at risk but their children and others as well.

The classic operating design of respectful in these cases could get someone killed.

Or, is it somehow different when we walk into an Aikido dojo because it has the name on the door? I didn't know the word Aikido was a free pass.
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Old 02-20-2002, 12:45 PM   #49
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Calling Miss Cleo a fraud does nothing towards stopping those who would give her money from doing so; putting her in jail/shutting her down stops her from harming others, if that is what she does.

But this forum is not discussing Miss Cleo's advice, it is discussing Aikido. The fact that she may be dishonest does not in any way lessen the disrespect you show a style different from yours by refering to it's students as Fruit Loops (which again, if that is how you refer to your own style, then fine, I stand corrected, but it sounds disrespectful to me). Disrespect is compounded by prejudice if that statement is not based on actually training in that dojo and meeting the students, but just on a belief that all students of a particular style are Fruit Loops. If you are offended that they have Aiki in their name, keep in mind O Sensei was not the first to use the word, either.

Nothing is gained by tearing down different styles on this forum. If you are proud of what you do, start a thread and tell everyone. Your particular style is not diminished because there are others out there, and it is not enhanced when you ridicule them.
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Old 02-20-2002, 01:50 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
But this forum is not discussing Miss Cleo's advice, it is discussing Aikido.
Sigh! And it provides such a good example of the obvious.

Quote:
Disrespect is compounded by prejudice if that statement is not based on actually training in that dojo and meeting the students, but just on a belief that all students of a particular style are Fruit Loops. If you are offended that they have Aiki in their name, keep in mind O Sensei was not the first to use the word, either.
Well, what happens when the Neptunian's don't show and the whole dojo commits suicide over it? Are we going to all associate our Aikido with them?

Yes, they did indeed do Aikido. Well, yes, yes of course it was good Aikido. All Aikido is good Aikido. Well, no we don't advocate suicide as a normal practice but it was good aikido all the same. I mean they didn't exactly blend but they didn't really resist either.... Blah! Blah! Blah!

We may not call them fruit loops but we are going to run from them towards the nearest thing we can find to differentiate ourselves from them.

Quote:
Nothing is gained by tearing down different styles on this forum.
Did I advocate that? The point being made is that all Aikido is not good Aikido. That is all! But it seems as if that is a statement which is not allowed. Besides, we would miss out on our monthly posting of "Competition sucks! Tomiki Aikido sucks!" if we did that.

We've seen examples here of bad Aikido where teachers had fraudulent lineage. What about them? Or, when someone writes say a truly atrocious book and calls it Aikido should I sit back and say "must be good Aikido."

By the way, the reverse actually happens. Often when someone is proven fraudulent or that their idea didn't work their followers or supporters go into rationalization mode. "I couldn't be that stupid", they think, and so they rationalize some answer to support their beliefs. Often they become even more entrenched. Human psychology is a very interesting thing.

One last thing. Prejudice will always exist. It's a good thing in certain cases, and much less so in others. It depends on where and how it's applied which, admittedly, is the tricky part.
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